Gods Infinity Problem

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Homergreg's picture
Yes, it has everything to do

Yes, it has everything to do with what you have determined a Christian to be. You said you looked at whatever doctrine you chose to look at, you looked at the dictionary, you looked at the Bible and you judged that I didn't believe in Christianity.

How in the world does that not have "was nothing to to with" what you personally believe a Christian is?

Sheldon's picture
Homer "you looked at whatever

Homer "you looked at whatever doctrine you chose to look at, you looked at the dictionary, you looked at the Bible"

I didn't write them though, nor do they reflect, nor are they remotely influenced by my opinion. You lied, and are still lying.

>blockquote>Homer "How in the world does that not have "was nothing to to with" what you personally believe a Christian is?"

Sigh, can it really be that your grasp of language is this poor.

Homergreg's picture
But you looked at those

But you looked at those things and deemed me by the contents of my posts.

Did one post out of what you were comparing do it? Did it take three? Was it my questioning of "God requiring infinite knowledge" that led to the call of me not believing in Christianity? Did that one "cross the line"? Will you deem me as believing in Christianity if I reconsider that belief? You made the call out, you make the call back in, you seem to know where I stand better than I.

Sheldon's picture
@Homer

@Homer

I looked at the facts, yes, you might try it someday.

Homer "you seem to know where I stand better than I."

Well don't feel too badly, your execrable grasp of language, and your aversion to facts, is undoubtedly an insurmountable impediment.

Homergreg's picture
Lol, I guess I'll never know

Lol, I guess I'll never know where you deemed I fell short of Christianity.

Oh well.

Sheldon's picture
Homer "Lol, I guess I'll

Homer "Lol, I guess I'll never know where you deemed I fell short of Christianity.

Oh well."

Sadly I fear this is the first thing you have got right, but your inability to grasp the simplest point in the simplest language, no matter how oft repeated, is beyond even my patience. Others who can feign any interest anymore may re-read my posts and see the reason.

Homergreg's picture
Lol, so someone else can

Lol, so someone else can judge my beliefs outside the bounds of "Christianity" too? Not sure anybody else will care to do that.

David Killens's picture
@ Homer

@ Homer

"Lol, so someone else can judge my beliefs outside the bounds of "Christianity" too? Not sure anybody else will care to do that."

Sheldon did a very good job attempting to nail your position down. But you kept moving the goalposts.

Question: Homer, what religious dogma do you apply to your life and beliefs?

Sheldon's picture
David Killens "Sheldon did a

David Killens "Sheldon did a very good job attempting to nail your position down. But you kept moving the goalposts."

This is precisely the problem in trying to have an honest rational discourse with Homer, and of course he's not alone in utilising this tactic. He will tell us what he does not believe, but offers no objective reasoning for rejecting core doctrine, but when telling us what he does believe it tends to be broad sweeping assertions, that are almost impossible to properly examine, like "I am a Christian" or "I accept the teachings of Jesus", these have the atheists here doing all the legwork, and then he simply moves the goalposts by claiming he doesn't believe the part you ask him about. Until I observed that his posts were slowly piece by piece refuting his own claim to be a christian.

I think it is fair to say he took this badly, but it was an honest observation. I mean people have a broad idea of what a christian is, but then the bible is a pick and mix mishmash of patriarchal bronze and iron age Bedouin morality and superstition, so it's a fairly diverse demographic. The comment was more an observation of Homer's tendency so abandon core doctrine whenever he was presented with a difficult question, and simply reiterate his core claim to still be a christian, as if this was some sort of ace card in a debate.

If someone asked me right know what his core beliefs are, even after weeks of him posting here, I am not sure I could tell them much beyond he claims to be a christian. To me that is very illuminating, but then I happen to think a belief needs to be justified by sufficient objective evidence and rational argument, Homer's posts suggest he does not. The first step in understanding and justifying any belief has to be to precisely and accurately defining that belief. I guess it's a thread most theists are weary of pulling at lest it unravels.

Cognostic's picture
@Sheldon.... Ha ha ha ha

@Sheldon.... Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ,,,,,, good one........... You used the word Homer and Rational in the same sentence. Ha ha ha ha ha ha .....

Oh Oh Oh ...... I've just thought of another one.. How about..... "Garrett and I are having a 'rational' discussion today.

Homergreg's picture
What goalposts are there to

What goalposts are there to move about me? Some guy is making claims for me from his own interpretation of what a Christian is. I'm saying I don't ascribe to those claims, and he says therefore I'm not a Christian. Did I set some goalposts by donning the label? 2.2 billion Christians out there, many do not believe in a tortuous hell, many accept many men wrote the Bible over thousands of years and there are people in there using the name of God to justify man's cruelty to man. Many don't ascribe to the logic exercises surrounding infinity, heck, most atheists here even see through that as some way to negate belief. If Sheldon needs to define a Christian via any of that I'm going to show him he's absolutely full of poo.

Now the hard part, your question, but since you asked....

When I'm done with what the huge amount that follows, please don't make this about "objective evidence" and that I'm using something from within vs. from a creator. We've been there, I've been there, more than once and always ended up realizing God is there, and that isn't going to change. Consider me with that crutch if that helps you, I don't mind. You just asked a very complex question and it's got a long answer, that will assuredly be ripped apart by others. I don't really care as I've ripped it apart myself a thousand times and it keeps on getting closer and closer to the same end, and I plan on doing this until I just can't do it anymore. Homer's a work constantly in progress, "Nobody's perfect"

If one doesn't rip themself apart and see that it falls back into the same place, one doesn't have truth to their life or belief in my book. If it falls differently, rip yourself apart until it doesn't fall back and you will find as close to truth as you're able to get. So here we go with my long answer:

I have rejected the notion of a creator God before. I searched for the answer to why anything can exist, I guess just an instinctual need, a hunger, and I got all the way to the universe being something from nothing, and accepted that through quantum flux.

I was amazed that the something from nothing produced a something from nothing that included sentient beings. I read about the Anthropic Principle, and Leslie's Firing squad. I walked away from that point, knowing that anything the mind of man can come up with will fail to satisfy that hunger for a truly objective answer longer than I'm going to continue to breathe. Lots of gaps beyond that firing squad, I know! Is an intelligence in there? infinite multiverses? Nobody knows at this point, many will claim, but nobody knows, and I'm still not satisfied with a "Just lucky I guess" answer.

I started to believe that maybe, just maybe, this universe isn't an accident, that it was created to produce beings that were aware of existence. That "Cogito, ergo sum" might be the purpose. That this incredibly complex universe might have indeed been made from some far less complex stuff that harbored sentience, for the purpose of incubating more sentience.

It's either that, or it's not, and if it's not then it doesn't freakin matter what it is anyway!

So from there I look at if it has been created for that purpose, then what evidence is there? And there isn't one way or another in any "objective" way to tell.

So I humbled myself to whatever it is, and I was thankful for whatever made this all, and for just existing, and I found myself gaining joy, patience, love and more. The more I gave that "whatever it was" my attention, the more I received. That when I "abided in the vine, I received and bore fruit". I saw that Jesus was trying to teach us something good there.

I realized I was heading back towards square one, but there was a whole lot of things that religious doctrine had put in there that I could not accept. So I don't accept it.

So I'm sitting here with a secular humanist kinda life, yet believing there's a Creator and Jesus was a guy, maybe even somehow inspired or sent directly by that Creator, that was trying to point some people towards the right way to seek that Creator. I can't help but think that Jesus' assertions about loving that Creator that provides love in return and loving my neighbor as myself as bad things at all. I think Jesus taught a whole lot of great things, that he might have taught a couple of things I don't agree with, or maybe men have ascribed teachings to Jesus that he didn't even teach! How am I, or anyone to really know?

Still I find myself believing in enough of those teachings that led me to the joy and love, to call myself Christian. I realize calling myself a Christian from this will bring the wrath of those who see the label of Christian to mean so many more things that they have issues with, but I believe I'm getting better and better equipped to handle prejudice and judgement.

I'm still going to disagree with elements of "Christianity" as defined by so many and if I find myself in contention with what is actually giving me the peace and joy in doing so, I guess I'll have to suffer whatever consequences it brings if that time comes.

Whitefire13's picture
So Homer ...”What goalposts

So Homer ...”What goalposts are there to move about me?” and then etc, etc etc till “...”If Sheldon needs to define a Christian via any of that I'm going to show him he's absolutely full of poo.”

OK - so now we’re off to the races on the inner workings of Homer’s thought process: No 1-

“When I'm done with what the huge amount that follows, please don't make this about "objective evidence" and that I'm using something from within vs. from a creator. “

A “low standard for evidence” is now set from Homer.

“...realizing God is there, and that isn't going to change.”

Because of said “low standard for evidence”.

“...that will assuredly be ripped apart by others. I don't really care as I've ripped it apart myself a thousand times and it keeps on getting closer and closer to the same end, and I plan on doing this until I just can't do it anymore. Homer's a work constantly in progress, "Nobody's perfect"

No, no one is perfect. No one. Let’s see how well “you yourself have ripped it apart”. Please NOTE...I may at times refer to my own experiences in deprogramming myself.

“I have rejected the notion of a creator God before.”

First off, can’t say I rejected the “creator God” off hand ... I started with questioning my own religious upbringing and doctrine. Then moved on to peeking at other religious thought. Then curious as to where this all came from. Then wondered “really? What made these books “inspired or from god”... THAT process led me to the conclusion that all man-made ideas of god are “make believe”. In this process I didn’t reject or abandon an idea of “god” -

“I searched for the answer to why anything can exist, I guess just an instinctual need, a hunger, and I got all the way to the universe being something from nothing, and accepted that through quantum flux.”

Me too.

“I was amazed that the something from nothing produced a something from nothing that included sentient beings.”

Me too! Then I started to really think about my chances for even existing (sperm/egg meeting going back through “time”) FUCK I WON the LOTTERY!!!!! The best one out there!!!!!

“I read about the Anthropic Principle, and Leslie's Firing squad. I walked away from that point, knowing that anything the mind of man can come up with will fail to satisfy that hunger for a truly objective answer longer than I'm going to continue to breathe. Lots of gaps beyond that firing squad, I know! Is an intelligence in there? infinite multiverses? Nobody knows at this point, many will claim, but nobody knows, and I'm still not satisfied with a "Just lucky I guess" answer.”

I read stuff too. I can’t remember what, and I go and google search or pull a book off the shelf - but I know what you mean. I still “play” in the area of the same questions. However, “to get to what is as close to what is true” (as currently possible), regardless of my own “discomfort” I accepted
that “nobody knows”. Even me. So how did , I come to accept discomfort in not knowing? My cat (at the time). I was looking at her, licking herself clean on a chair (years ago) and it hit me...she doesn’t give a fuck! She doesn’t even comprehend that sex (egg/sperm) is how she got here. She just enjoys being here! I’m the one causing my own “distress” through “higher brain function” (which is great - science stuff, medicine, food production, technology, etc) BUT the imaginative ability can be tricky if there is no “grounding”.

“I started to believe that maybe, just maybe, this universe isn't an accident, that it was created to produce beings that were aware of existence.”

Uh oh, started to believe your imagination or thought process.

“ That "Cogito, ergo sum" might be the purpose. That this incredibly complex universe might have indeed been made from some far less complex stuff that harbored sentience, for the purpose of incubating more sentience.”

Imaginative possibility.

“It's either that, or it's not, and if it's not then it doesn't freakin matter what it is anyway!”

Well actually, there are more imaginative possibilities, you just limited yourself to two.

“So from there I look at if it has been created for that purpose, then what evidence is there? And there isn't one way or another in any "objective" way to tell.”

To tell what? To tell if there is an intelligent creator? (Only one of your imaginative possibilities?) NO objective evidence has been produced therefore, I withhold belief.

“So I humbled myself to whatever it is, and I was thankful for whatever made this all, and for just existing, and I found myself gaining joy, patience, love and more. The more I gave that "whatever it was" my attention, the more I received. That when I "abided in the vine, I received and bore fruit". I saw that Jesus was trying to teach us something good there.”

Now, you twisted yourself into jumping from one “thought” conclusion to another “thought” conclusion without evidence. You even “named” your imaginary “thought being” and gave it credit for your own “human qualities”... WOW - and in the process “created your own thought god/requirement/reward system”

“I realized I was heading back towards square one, but there was a whole lot of things that religious doctrine had put in there that I could not accept. So I don't accept it.”

Exactly as said above. You decided through your own “imaginative thought” process.

“So I'm sitting here with a secular humanist kinda life, “

The “human” moral viewpoint.

“...yet believing there's a Creator and Jesus was a guy, maybe even somehow inspired or sent directly by that Creator,... etc etc etc ...How am I, or anyone to really know?”

Uh, by “checking imaginary thought processes” to a higher standard of evidence. Accepting what “is”. Accepting “not knowing”...

“Still I find myself believing in enough of those teachings that led me to the joy and love, to call myself Christian. “

I put disinfect and a bandaid in my kid...(you figure it out)

“I realize calling myself a Christian from this will bring the wrath of those who see the label of Christian to mean so many more things that they have issues with, but I believe I'm getting better and better equipped to handle prejudice and judgement.”

It’s not “prejudice and judgement” (unless you accept the bible teaching of being persecuted for his name sake) - it’s the fucking argument ALL CHRISTIANS have with one another over the fuckin book that defined “Christian”

“I'm still going to disagree with elements of "Christianity" as defined by so many and if I find myself in contention with what is actually giving me the peace and joy in doing so, I guess I'll have to suffer whatever consequences it brings if that time comes.”

Yes, yes...you’re a “Christian” blah blah blah ...

Homergreg's picture
Considering imagination and

Considering imagination and thought process is all I have have beyond the science that I completely accept, I'm not sure I'm going to have any issues living my life out putting imagination and thought process there. Is there a low standard of evidence for that area? Of course there is! There's no objective evidence any of us have there, one either chooses to stop their thought there or they don't.

I'm not asking you to do it, David asked, I answered.

Whitefire13's picture
Thanks for not asking...

Thanks for not asking...

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David Killens's picture
@ Homer

@ Homer

"I'm not asking you to do it, David asked, I answered."

On which you moved the goal posts and never addressed the question I posed, which was:

"Homer, what religious dogma do you apply to your life and beliefs?"

Good folks of this forum, this "Homer" is more intelligent than he wants you to believe, he knows what he is doing, he understands fallacies, and he is just twisting and turning to evade anything and everything. His avatar is of a gullible simpleton, so is his name.

You are not going to get a straight answer out of him, you are not going to get an honest answer out of him.

Homergreg's picture
David. I understand fallacy,

David. I understand fallacy, yet I believe.

My Avatar is my constant reminder to me that "Nobody's Perfect".

I bare my thoughts openly and honestly. I detailed what I believe, why I believe, how I came to that belief, and how I apply that to my life best I can because I was just asked. If I failed to answer your question, it's not because I didn't try, it's not because I'm not honest. It could be some shortcoming in me that is not properly giving me the right way to convey my thoughts, and I'll have to live with that shortcoming, but I know one thing, it's not because I'm lying.

David Killens's picture
@ Homer

@ Homer

This is not complicated, so please do not make it that way. I will repeat my question ...

"Homer, what religious dogma do you apply to your life and beliefs?"

I am not attempting to define you into any specific religion, just trying to understand what dogma and philosophy attracts you.

For example, although I am an atheist, I still admire and attempt to follow some the four principles of christian ethics, which are prudence, justice, restraint, and courage. I do not embrace Jainism, which preaches salvation by perfection through successive lives.

Homergreg's picture
I'm sorry I went the wrong

I'm sorry I went the wrong way with my understanding. I try to follow a life that exhibits, philanthropy, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control, lol, the "fruits" towards my fellow man and my God (real or imagined for those who feel the need to point out my lack of proof). And now that you mention it, prudence, justice, restraint, and courage are great principles and some parts of those principles are embodied in the fruit as well, at least I think they are. Sometimes I do a better job at exhibiting these traits than other times. "Work in progress"

I'm starting to read a bit about Thomas Paine, and I have a good feeling some of his thoughts will enter into what refines Homer and I rip apart and put myself together some more.

I hope that's a closer answer to what you were wishing me to provide.

Jainism, eh? Sounds like a Bill Murray Groundhog's Day sect. I'll just try my best to do what I can with this life I miraculously have.

Whitefire13's picture
@sheldon.... waving hand back

@sheldon.... waving hand back and forth ...throwing in an answer (not to be rude to you Sheldon, for interrupting)

Re: (reference to Sheldon)... “you seem to know where I stand better than I.”

He does though! You are standing on earth as an evolved primate (known also as the species Homo-sapien) irritated because “your personal definition” isn’t accepted by another Homo-sapien (who isn’t a Christian) INSTEAD of taking it up with the primates that coined that phrase and have grouped themselves together in their own tribes calling themselves by the same name.

Sheldon's picture
Whitefire13 "You are

Whitefire13 "You are standing on earth as an evolved primate (known also as the species Homo-sapien) irritated because “your personal definition” isn’t accepted by another Homo-sapien (who isn’t a Christian) INSTEAD of taking it up with the primates that coined that phrase and have grouped themselves together in their own tribes calling themselves by the same name."

It's pretty funny really, but thank you for trying to help Homer understand, as it is a thankless task. I'm well into a bottle of wine now, so I'm kicking back and relaxing...

in a few hours I will be as relaxed as a parrot... :-) No work until Monday, locked in the house alone with a load of booze, whatever will I do...

Homergreg's picture
Maybe you got something there

Maybe you got something there! Maybe those primates left Sheldon some sort of "Christianity or not decision tree" to use the Bible, core tenets, doctrine and more to make that call on which side of the line my beliefs fall! He must have just forgotten to mention that part.

Sheldon's picture
@Homer

@Homer

You seem to think Whitefire13 was agreeing with you? I'm fairly certain she was not.

Whitefire13 "You are standing on earth as an evolved primate (known also as the species Homo-sapien) irritated because “your personal definition” isn’t accepted by another Homo-sapien (who isn’t a Christian) INSTEAD of taking it up with the primates that coined that phrase"

I'm pretty sure that was directed at you, and not me. Whitefire13 is trying yet again, as I and several others have done, to help you understand the definition is not mine or any other atheist's, and that you are getting irritated at the wrong homo-sapiens, as we are not christians, and therefore, as I have been saying, had no part in defining what a christian is.

Oh dear...

Homergreg's picture
I was actually trying to find

I was actually trying to find a way to agree with you guys Sheldon! I'm thinking they must have left you some decision tree to make that call for them on me, and you merely objectively applied it.

Whitefire13's picture
Oh my, Sheldon is relying on

Oh my, Sheldon is relying on religious text....ohhhh, how “ludicrous”

Hmmmm - how to tell, how to tell?

Medical physicians can determine one of their own (see pic)

Take this up with your own “kind”

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boomer47's picture
@Sheldon

@Sheldon

Sorry to be noodge:

"Yes, literally everything, but God created logic, so God can't defy logic."

Of course he can. Logic is not a reliable tool to arrive at a truth. With apologies to Mr Spock, logic rarely dictates . Truth may not be assumed of a logical inference .

Believers will often assert that god can and will ignore 'natural law'. This often happens with miracles. Not sure how he would go with logical impossibilities, such as a square circle or having an irresistible force meet an immoveable object.

I don't even try to wade in the pool of a god of infinite qualities. I'll just say it's an unfalsifiable claim and leave it at that.

If a believer insists, I ask him to respond to Epicurus on evil .Only a trained and bloody minded apologist will have a go at that .(and still get it wrong)***

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

― Epicurus

)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))0))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

***IMO, theology, apologetics, biblical hermeneutics and exegesis are no more than forms of sophistry.

Sheldon's picture
I agree, the logic claim is

I agree, the logic claim is one I paraphrased from Breezy.

Whitefire13's picture
Lol!

Lol!

Whitefire13's picture
@Homer

@Homer

“...sort of "no true Scotsman" fallacy

Except the book that defines a “Christian” is the measuring tool.

Like, a doctor. Sure, you can call yourself “one” BUT to measure if a person really is a “Doctor” ...(you figure it out)

Homergreg's picture
Judge whether I'm a Christian

Judge whether I'm a Christian or not by whatever measure you wish, and label me as you wish.

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