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Harry33Truman's picture

I came across this site in my quest to utterly disprove Islam, and thought that it would be so good place to discuss things.
Anyway, I am an ex-christian who was so Jew by birth, and I was later convinced that Jesus is not the Messiah by a Rabbinic Jew on the internet. Eventually I came to Karaite Judaism and through my reason have concluded that it is the true form of Judaism, which is the only true religion.

Now let me discuss a few of our beliefs (both as Jews and as Karaites)
1. We don't do this "faith" thing, nowhere in the entire Tanakh are we told to believe something without proof, rather the opposite, Proverbs 14:15:
"The simple believe anything, but the prudent give thought to their steps."

2. We do not believe that Atheists go to hell for being atheists, though back in the olden days we would question your intelligence or eye sight since G-d had revealed himself to an entire nation. We aren't very clear on "hell" since the Tanakh doesn't say very much about it, except that it is called Sheol, and it's apparently some kind of dark pit. Anyway, the wicked get punished, but nowhere do we find atheism as a crime, though this would be hard to prove since we'd have to just take your word for it.

3. We believe that Christians are idol worshiping pagans since their Jesus is based on the Roman Sun God Sol, probably done by the Catholic Church. But the point is Jesus cannot be G-d since G-d is not a man, and there for Christians are worshiping a physical entity as G-d, which is idol worship. They also believe in 3 gods so they're polytheists too.

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chimp3's picture
Welcome to the forum and the

Welcome to the forum and the 21st century , Harry Truman! Good luck!

Nyarlathotep's picture
Harry Truman - "Anyway, the

Harry Truman - "Anyway, the wicked get punished, but nowhere do we find atheism as a crime, though this would be hard to prove since we'd have to just take your word for it."

Just curious; what do you need to take our (atheists) word on?

Harry33Truman's picture
Being atheists, you could

Being atheists, you could just claim that you aren't.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Harry Truman- "Being atheists

Harry Truman- "Being atheists, you could just claim that you aren't."

Sorry, maybe I'm being dense. I still don't get what you are saying. As you suggesting that some of us are self identifying as atheists when we are not in fact atheists (I probably misunderstood you, but that is all I could come up with)?

Harry33Truman's picture
I meant that if we passed a

I meant that if we passed a law making atheism illegal, you could just say that you aren't an atheist and there would be no way to prove otherwise.

Sir Random's picture
If the religious ever pulled

If the religious ever pulled a stunt like that here in the U.S, I'd move to Russia immediately. And subsequently watch as the U.S fell apart, not from the atheisum law, but from pre existing problems(I'm no patriot). I intend to move later in life anyways.

mykcob4's picture
So you say that you don't

So you say that you don't believe anything without proof. I find that hard to believe.
1) You became a Karaites being converted by an internet Rabbinic jew.
2) There is no proof of a god anywhere.
3) Islam is no different than any of the Abrahamic religions. No better, no worse.
4) Christianity is not polytheistic. It's monotheistic. Redefining it because of its belief that a god, a human, and a spirit are not one in the same is just a distortion of the belief. Now you might get away with calling it polytheistic because of saints, angels, demons,and the devil.
5) The nut that converted you believes in a "young earth". This goes back to point (1).

You say, on another thread, that you came here to learn how to argue with a muslim. This forum isn't a teaching ground for debate. You must already have the research and debate skills BEFORE you join. If you have good arguments, you don't need any of us to refute the person that you are debating with. Of course, it would help if you weren't an obvious hypocrite.
You can't actually denounce islam, when your own religion is a myth.
I checked out the link you posted. It leads me to a nutcase. A bunch of youtube videos of a person that is blatantly interested in self-promotion and NOT facts.

You come up with definitive, empirical, indisputable, proof of a god, THEN we'll discuss the merits or lack thereof of karaites. As far as I can see karaites are just a sect that decided to parse mainstream rabbinic judism for their own politic ends.
I consider them nonsensical as I do all theist and myth believers.
I started a thread on why christians can't debate, but it goes for all myth believers. You should read it. Maybe you'll convert since your commitment is so easily swayed by internet fodder.

Harry33Truman's picture
Well everyone has some kind

Well everyone has some kind of bias, and believes something that they cannot prove, but I try to put my beliefs out there to criticize as best I can, so that I can determine if they are true or not.

1. No, I was convinced of Judaism by a Rabbinic Jew, I chose the specific sect of Judaism, Karaite Judaism, based on analysis of their beliefs and arguments.

2. Not true, there is a lot of proof. I am not a Rabbinate but still some Rabbis make good arguments, so here is a debate between a Rabbinic Rabbi and a Atheist to try and prove it to you, keep in mind I do not believe everything he says, such as the world being 6,000 years old (hahahahaha!!!)

3. Also not true, Judaism is the only religion at all where G-d revealed himself to a whole nation. Rather than being started by 1 person making a claim and expecting everyone to believe it. I challenge you to find another like this.

4. They believe in 3 gods and they call it a trinity.

5. Just because some Jews believe this nonsense doesn't detract from that Judaism is true, basically you attacked him as a person for believing something to illegitimate his other beliefs, including the ones that I share. So this is pretty much an ad hominid attack.

I already have debating skills, I came here while looking up if someone defeated the Quran challenge, I was referring to the articles on this site, not the debate board, and to facts not debate arguments.

The rest of your post was also ad hominid attacks, which I see no use in dealing with. You just attacked Karaite Judaism on no basis whatsoever, and called all theists myth believers, an over generalised ad hominid attack.

Now we can get into the proof for G-d, but I'm not sure you'd listen. Fact is I am far more able to question my beliefs than you seeing as though this is how I came to my current beliefs, whereas yours have been formed by looking at the beliefs of idol worshiped who don't even have beliefs of their own. Thus my conclusion should be considered more than yours for these reasons (but never accepted on account of this)

Anyway, the most relevant proof that there is is this: there were 3 million witnesses of G-d talking to Moses at Mt. Sinai, Ill get into proving this proof later once I feel like typing again.

chimp3's picture
@Harry Truman: 3million?

@Harry Truman: 3million? Looking forward to that piece of "evidence" .

Harry33Truman's picture
I'm going to make a post

I'm going to make a post about it.

Dave Matson's picture
Harry Truman,

Harry Truman,

You are presumptuous in suggesting that we are less willing to look at the facts. It has been my experience that those with high religious stakes are the ones who usually have trouble looking objectively at the facts.

Three million Israelites in the Sinai, an extrapolation based on the number of fighting men listed in Exodus, would have left massive evidence--especially since they spent most of that time at one site. The place would be littered with sheep bones, cattle bones, lost jewelry (pilfered from the Egyptians), assorted metal objects, discarded sandals, lost tent pegs, and even a healthy collection of grave sites. Israeli archaeologists poured over the Sinai upon capturing it. Absolutely no evidence was found supporting your 3 million Israelites! With 600,000 men why flee? Great Persia, controlling vast areas and having access to its manpower and wealth, could barely collect that many men! This is mythology with inflated figures at best. In truth, many archaeologists now believe that there was no exodus at all, that the Israelites were originally Canaanites who moved into the hills and adopted a new identity. I hope your proof discusses these problems.

Harry33Truman's picture
Well Arabs and many other

Well Arabs and many other people lived and still do live in that area. Cumulatively that is much larger number than 3million, yet we don't find such extensive artifacts from those people do we? And you do not deny that Arabs exist for this reason, how does this then apply to the ancient Hebrews who were there over 4,000 years ago?

Dave Matson's picture
I'll accept the findings of

I'll accept the findings of professional archaeologists. They know that subject much better than you do, and they have found no evidence for the exodus. They are capable of finding a sandal of someone living thousands of years before Moses, but find no clue to Moses' millions. I suspect that if I went over there and did a reasonable search I would find plenty of evidence relating to recent habitation.

ætherborn98's picture
Didn't they find the ten

Didn't they find the ten commandments with seemingly "Lazer inscribed words."

Sir Random's picture


mykcob4's picture
Bullshit! Prove that there is

Bullshit! Prove that there is a god. Then prove that that god gave Moses a set of rules. There were no witnesses to god talking to Moses, not a single one.

algebe's picture
"Then prove that that god

"Then prove that that god gave Moses a set of rules."

First prove that Moses existed.

ætherborn98's picture
"Prove that there is a god.

"Prove that there is a god. Then prove that that god gave Moses a set of rules."

"First prove that Moses existed."

Prove that there is no gods. Then disprove that G-d gave Moses a set of rules.

Disprove that Moses existed.

Sir Random's picture
The onus is on the claimant.

The onus is on the claimant. Ie: You, the believers.

algebe's picture
"Disprove that Moses existed.

"Disprove that Moses existed."

I don't have to. He's not my sea-parting, snake-making magician. I never claimed that he talked to a burning bush or got a stone rule book from his imaginary friend. I think the story about him floating down the river and getting picked up by Pharoah's daughter is cute, though.

mykcob4's picture
@Hawk Flint.

@Hawk Flint.
How many times do we have to tell you that it is YOUR responsibility to prove your myth? It isn't up to anyone to disprove a myth.

ætherborn98's picture
None. I was just responding

None. I was just responding the same way you guys were. I'm trying to make a point. You ask us to do something we can't do, but when WE do its not acceptable.

Sir Random's picture
You don't seem to u derstan:

You don't seem to understand: We could do it. Its simply not our responsibility. The burden of proof always, always lies on the claimant(s). You claim he existed. You have to prove it. If you can't, the only safe assumption is that he didn't exist. No proof=Didn't happen.

Dave Matson's picture


Absolutely! The burden of proof is on the shoulders of those who allege. I would make one, small modification to your post. No Proof = No Reason To Believe It.

algebe's picture
" You ask us to do something

" You ask us to do something we can't do, but when WE do its not acceptable."

Fair enough. But you asked me to do the impossible by proving a negative. You're also trying to reverse the burden of proof. You're putting forward a certain view to explain the origin of the universe and our position in it. You're saying basically that god did it. If you want people here to believe that, it's your job to prove it.

The reason I question whether Moses was a real person is the fact that there is no historical evidence, other than the Bible itself, that the Jews were enslaved in Egypt or escaped from it. Since Moses is a key part of that story, his existence must also be called into doubt. I'm sure there were a few Jewish slaves or workers in Egypt around the time of the supposed Exodus, but I think the Egyptians would have recorded the sudden departure of several hundred thousand people and the destruction of their army and king.

Harry33Truman's picture
No, but who decides if it has

No, but who decides if it has been proven? Atheists?

Harry33Truman's picture
Yes there were 3 million.

Yes there were 3 million.
Here is a debate between a Rabbi and atheist to prove it to you:

Sir Random's picture
YouTube videos are suspect at

YouTube videos are suspect at best. Find actual unbiased sources with credentials to back then up.

mykcob4's picture
Quit with the Youtube videos.

Quit with the Youtube videos. they aren't at all credible. And, once and for all prove that there was/is a god. You can't do it because there is NO credible evidence that there ever was. Even the totally unreliable bible says that no one saw god, only moses. So that blows your little fish story out of the water.


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