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Read your secular history. Christianity, in its many forms, was the religion of poor slaves until Constitine MADE it the state religion of Rome. Before then Christians were considered poor scum. Your comment really exposes your indoctrination. Atheism is not a unified belief. Its not a religion. Its the disbelief in divine gods. Your atheist against other religions. The only difference between me and you is I disbelieve in one less god than you. Learn your history, before the council created the cannon, not all denominations agreed that Jesus was devine. Just like today. The council voted in Hus divinity, his connection to god, and all those cute stories you say is truth. Rich white men voted on it.
I'd say the shoe is on the other foot my friend. It is YOU who continually exposes his own indoctrination. I mean, to say that truth is absent from scripture, thats just pure ignorance.
Also, the apostles creed found in the book of Acts written by the apostle Paul within one generation of the death of Jesus, clearly demonstrates that the divinity of Christ was never in question in even the EARLIEST church.
So much for your assertion that Christ's divinity and connection to God was voted in at the council of nicea.
Once again you reference a book that was put together by voting tyrants. That's like me making a book about me and saying I'm awesome. The bible is a biased doctrine. Read real history, not the history designed by the victors.
Lol....my gosh Chris. What ignorance you display. The bible was put together by voting tyrants??? Dude, do some research.
Well let's hear it Mr. scholar. Prove me wring with secular evidence. This is a debate room, not a conviction then tuck tale and run without a refute. Everything I just said is also in religious history. Just another point of view.
I refer you to the story of Areus to back up my argument. He believed that Christ was not devine and voted against it. He died "mysteriously", soon after. Sorry to be the one to tell you, but modern Christianity was the result of a voting process.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius
The story of Arius and the Council dispute about the devinity of Jesus. I dont know what a preacher has pounded into your skull, but this is factual history.
It doesnt matter what anyone believes, what matters is what is. The bible was written by 44 different authors over a period of about a millennium and a half, and is the best supported book of antiquity with thousands and thousands of manuscripts still in existence.
"The Bible was written by 44 different authors...." I must correct you on this. The Bible was never "written", it was canonized. Meaning that certain scripts were chosen to be in it. At this point it's like debating a dead goat. Your arguments are not even remotely entertaining, intelligent, interesting, nor challenging. Dude, you're so far behind in the game you're still using a batting tee. The Catholic Church even admits the books of the Bible were canonized at the Council of Nicea. That is pretty bad when the Catholic Church ownes up to something you can't admit.
Pardon me, but it really seems you have lost your way a bit.
"It doesnt matter what anyone believes, what matters is what is." - This is about as far from a statement of a believer as you can get. This is a pure pragmatic and atheistic statement.
There is a lot of well documented research made on the history of how the Bible was put together. Something that all of its believers should read up on. I find the power struggle at the counsels particularly interesting.
A good starting point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
No preacher has pounded anything into my head, i have arrived at my own conclusions based on my own study and a thourough examination of the available evidence.
Wikipedia, i will admit, was not among those sources.
Let's hear it then. Quit talking and start walking. I can list other sources if you like. That was just easy and fast. They all concur. Except for Apologetics, of course.
Yes Jimmy, there were men names Mark from the Middle East that had eye witness accounts of Jesus. Even tho the letter "J" is only 500 years old. Also, the earliest book in the new testament was written 40 years after Joshua was "crusified." In a book that has been rewritten several times over from tyrannical men and stolen myths and legends from other civilizations prior to the time of "Jesus" and "Moses", mostly Pagan. Let's hear your reasoning outside the Bible of why history is wrong.
First I would like to explain Matthew 10:34-36.
So I'm free, and Jeff can see I'm not trying to ignore your misunderstanding.
The reason Jesus said he came not for peace but a sword and that those of a household would be foes, is because of a household that has been against God, becomes a household that one or more get saved, there will be division, for light and darkness doesn't get along.
I have a perfect example of that.
Before I was saved, my wife claimed she had been saved when she was a child. There was a couple of times that she read a few verses out of the Bible to me, and she was worried that when we died that we would not be in the same place. Yet when I was saved, she about went off the deep end trying to run the other way. We even separated 3 times. It was a very difficult time, yet my Church and I kept praying, and finally about 6 1/2 years later on new years day 2009 she really got saved, and our marriage has been better than it ever was before.
So that was simple, anymore questions just ask.
Now again I have to tell you, you don't know what you're talking about when you claim that all religious denominations that claim to be Christians are actually Christians as the Bible shows Christians to be.
Jesus said in
Matthew 24:5 KJV
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
There are also many religious groups that do the same.
Also the Bible clearly shows that there are perversions of so called bibles out there:
Galatians 1:6-8 KJV
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: [7] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
So my point is that we already know of these things in which of course you didn't because you don't study in a right mind because you are blinded by your own desires of things that are against God.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: [4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Oh yeah and your talking about Jesus didn't come to change anything is very wrong. Jesus did say He didn't come to change the law but to fulfill it. That's because only by the law being fulfilled could there be any help for man kind. Yet you still have to accept the payment that Jesus paid for you or your still under the law which is still in tacked for the ungodly because He didn't change it. You see I've accepted God's gift and so now I'm not under the bondage of the law like you are, for I'm under grace.
One more thing, just because the truth of history is given in the Bible doesn't mean that God was in support of everything that people choose to do. And there is also punishments given in the Bible also for those who disobeyed God or that came against Him or His nation of Israel.
Immorality in the Bible:
Owning people as slaves (Sanctioned examples: Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25:44)
Do not try to tap dance claiming indentured servitude. That is a lie. The Bible explicitly sanctions slavery! READ IT!!
Human Sacrifice
Rape
Murder
Genocide
In closing, you’ve provided no proof your god exists, and I’m provided proof all of the above exists in your bible. I’m tired of repeating myself. If you wish to live under an immoral set of teachings that’s your business.
1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."
Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?
2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.
3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.
5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".
6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]
This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!
7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
8) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)
They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)
9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
I never said God didn't put people into slavery. That was a punishment He gave. I think you were in a conversation in another forum on this topic, but forgive me if I'm wrong. So again, how is slavery any worse than prison? God put His own nation into slavery when they went after other false gods. And He gave them warning of what He would do.
Like I said in that other post, you would do worse to people that didn't obey you, if you were God.
I don't recall reading anywhere in the Bible that God said to rape someone. He is against fornication, which is any sexual behavior outside of marriage. So He wouldn't condone rape.
Learn how to study the Bible, or quit trying to tell someone what it says. Like I said before all you do is read and accept what other blind people say. That is as Jesus said the blind leading the blind.
I do know how to study the bible, that is why I'm an atheist. You don't understand anything you read. You rationalize all the immoral teachings of the Bible. Humans owning humans as property is immoral. I don't care how you spin it in your head so you can live with it. Like slavery, all the information above concerning passing women around as sexual toys goes right past you.
Oh ye of little understanding when thou readest the scripture.
First I will help you with Judges 21.
Your first mistake is to use any perversion.
Second there is nothing in that chapter that even suggests that God was at all in what they did.
Third yes I agree that the children of Israel did wrong but the children of Benjamin actually took the women as wives so they weren't raped. It doesn't say anything about how the women responded so you don't know what happened as far as there willingness or not. It is quite possible that the Jabesh-gilead men treated the women really bad so those women could have been glad to be with someone who treated them well. Not saying that is the way it was but you don't know either. The main point is that you claim it was God that was behind the whole thing and now we both know you don't study very well.
Do you want me to show you how little you know about the other accusations you make against God?
So, your argument against it being rape is that they were forced to marry the men who killed their entire families, so it wasn't really rape? Are you really that big of an idiot, or do you just play one on this forum?
The book of Exodus gives explicit laws on how to sell your daughters as sex slaves, and prescriptions for their treatment. But I'm sure you will just say I don't know how to read the bible correctly, and your right. I read what is written, and that is where the problem lies.
"... the children of Benjamin actually took the women as wives so they weren't raped. It doesn't say anything about how the women responded so you don't know what happened as far as there willingness or not."
Taking women as wives has no relationship to whether the women were raped. Willingness is the ONLY consideration. If any woman has sexual relations forced upon her against her consent, that constitutes rape regardless of the marital status of the woman or the accused. A woman can indeed be raped by her husband. Non-consensual sex = rape, no exceptions.
Do I even need to point out the contradiction of you saying, "Not saying that is the way it was but you don't know either." My perception argument is just not sinking in, is it? Your first, and biggest, mistake was defending a baby killer. Is just not possible to defend a personal point of view on the Bible. It has to be read literal because we very well can't ask the authors, now can we? We can just as easly say you're misunderstanding the scripture and it would be a deadlock. Also, still waiting on a response as to how children deserve to die just to punish one guy. That God did do without question.
My main point is that as "I'm free" ( but yet still in bondage) claims God was responsible for the actions the children of Israel committed was baseless according to the scripture He was referring to. That makes him wrong. As to my response to the women, it was simply to say there is nothing that describes what took place outside of the children of Benjamin took them for wives. So you're presumption that they were raped is a guess. We don't know how they responded.
As to your other question about the children. I will go back and make sure of the scripture you are talking about and I will get back to you.
Chris T
I take it that you were talking about the Egyptians, and the Exodus of the Israelites.
First and foremost people should not go against God and His people. Big big mistake. Here is some scripture about the incident from the book of Romans, in which you should be able to grasp something from, although you will probably not think on it from God's perspective but only on man's. I can already foresee what you will most likely claim, but let's see if you surprise me with.
Romans 9:14-22 KJV
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. [15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. [16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. [17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. [18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy , and whom he will he hardeneth. [19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? [20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Now as for the children. What anyone should do is consider that their sins do not only affect themselves, but also it will have an effect on others. Live for God and you won't have to worry about someone suffering because of your sins.
By the way unless those first born committed sin against God, they are in Heaven, in which I guarantee they are glad to be there and don't want to come back. For those that did commit sin against God their fate is as anyone else that died in their sins.
God is just in what HE does. He created all things and IF He wanted to make everyone suffer who are we to say He is wrong. Thank God that He is not that way, but was willing and did suffer more than any man so we could have everlasting life. But of course that is our choice. He made the way.
"Now as for the children. What anyone should do is consider that their sins do not only affect themselves, but also it will have an effect on others. Live for God and you won't have to worry about someone suffering because of your sins."
I will assume that you don't realize how stupid and asinine you sound?
"By the way unless those first born committed sin against God, they are in Heaven, in which I guarantee they are glad to be there and don't want to come back. For those that did commit sin against God their fate is as anyone else that died in their sins."
This old shtick? Children were murdered you sanctimonious creep! The bullshit you just vomited onto this forum could be used by any other religion to kill your children. This is not a moral argument, it is one of the most vile and evil excuses for infanticide I have ever heard, and you should be VERY ashamed of yourself.
"God is just in what HE does."
I disagree, vehemently. The god described in the bible isn't very just. Its morals seem no better nor progressive than a bronze-age peasant.
"He created all things and IF He wanted to make everyone suffer who are we to say He is wrong."
We are. Might doesn't make right. Parents do not have a right to treat their children any way they want to.
"Thank God that He is not that way, but was willing and did suffer more than any man so we could have everlasting life."
More than any man? Really? Nobody else has EVER been scourged and crucified? BULLSHIT. History is littered with misery and suffering, a good deal of it motivated by religion, many people have suffered as much, if not more, than your supposed Jesus.
"But of course that is our choice. He made the way."
The only choice in this discussion is whether there is any excuse for the moral atrocities your god supposedly committed, you haven't yet justified any of them.
Wow, just wow. You just tried to justify the slaughter of innocent children and you wonder why people are feed up with religion. God is just? Yea right, let's go kill the children of ISIS to punish their parents. That makes total sense. "They are in Heaven." If that helps you sleep at night knowing your god is a homicidal maniac, go for it. Answer this, if they went to "heaven", then why was it even considered a punishment for them to die in the first place? That's makes about as much sense as the crucification. How was it a sacrifice if god is all knowing and knew he was rise from the dead. That's like me jumping off a building knowing I was going to land on an air pad. Your response is just down right sick and disturbing. You know what's funny about sheep? Once you have earned their trust, you can slit their throat and they will still reside in your arms while they slowly bleed to death. I believe you just committed suicide on this thread. No one cares what you have to offer from here on out. Innocent kids,REALLY!?
First how was it a slaughter, they died in their sleep. The most peaceful way one can go. And how do you know they were innocent? Maybe they would have been part of cruel atrocities if they were to grow up. You don't know what God knows.
Hey and don't worry God doesn't make anyone follow Him. You have the choice to spend eternity with the rest of those who want to look at themselves as being better than God, righteous in your own eyes.
Oh excuse me, I guess there is a right way to die. "And how do you know they were innocent?" Because they are children. Their minds and bodies are still developing. They have very little concept of reality. They rely on their parents just to survive. I mean come the fuck on, guy! Did I really have to just explain this to an "adult"? So I guess its the children's fault when their village is raided, parents are killed, then are forced to join African Guerilla forces, and trained to kill? Children are never to blame. Your bigotry runs sodeep, its sickening. Also, If this whole heaven and hell thing is true, I will burn with pride knowing I had the strength to stand up against a baby murdering tyrant and didn't give into fear and reward. Whilst people like yourself tremble in fear and expect rewards for being good little boys and girls. My morals can not be bought.
Oh excuse me, I guess there is a right way to die. "And how do you know they were innocent?" Because they are children. Their minds and bodies are still developing. They have very little concept of reality. They rely on their parents just to survive. I mean come the fuck on, guy! Did I really have to just explain this to an "adult"? So I guess its the children's fault when their village is raided, parents are killed, then are forced to join African Guerilla forces, and trained to kill? Children are never to blame. Your bigotry runs sodeep, its sickening. Also, If this whole heaven and hell thing is true, I will burn with pride knowing I had the strength to stand up against a baby murdering tyrant and didn't give into fear and reward. Whilst people like yourself tremble in fear and expect rewards for being good little boys and girls. My morals can not be bought.
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