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Also, you need to read the definition of "slaughter". It means killing in mass numbers. It has nothing to do with a method. I believe your confusing " butcher" with "slaughter."
That is straight up divine command theory. The most subjective of moralities!
I have given up debating with chuck, because we all have experienced his stupidity.
"First how was it a slaughter, they died in their sleep. The most peaceful way one can go."
I just couldn't resist sorry. I am still ROFL
Chuck is like a bull that has seen RED and his mind just goes strait in the wall and when he hits, he sprouts BS from his back.
Slaughter is the killing of people, in this case children, not just any children, but innocent, sleeping children.
If god could be brought to court, we would give him the electric chair without even thinking twice about it.
I also had a face-palm moment followed by a ROFLMAO concerning the "First how was it a slaughter, they died in their sleep. The most peaceful way one can go." statement. So ridiculous, how else can you react? LOL
Jeff, Didn't you know? "All Babies go to Heaven". So its perfectly fine to smash them against a rock. (Psalm137:9)
HAHA
We do not see then smashing their kids, even their insitnct tells them it is wrong.
Although we do see some nut doing once in a while:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2212227/NHS-blunders-allowed-rel...
Chuck Rogers, do you realize just how much you sound like a militant fundamentalist?
You justify the most immoral actions, just by flipping a few pages in your holy book. Just like the Islamic State and the Taliban. But their wrong, and your right?
"First how was it a slaughter, they died in their sleep."
They were supposedly killed en mass. Also, how the fuck are we to believe that all of them would have been asleep? Have you ever raised a child? Been up all night when they are teething or Colicky? Many children would have been up.
"The most peaceful way one can go."
I worked on an ambulance service in a very rural area, we used to have to transport the deceased to the county coroner, my experience has taught me one thing about death. It. Is. Never. Peaceful. The facial contortions of many of those that "died in their sleep" would quickly dispel you of this myth.
"And how do you know they were innocent?"
Because young children are innocent. They suffer, and die, not because of their own actions.
"Maybe they would have been part of cruel atrocities if they were to grow up."
Despite what you may like to believe, guilt isn't retroactive. One is not guilty of a crime until they commit it.
"You don't know what God knows."
Indeed, I seem to suffer from a superior morality, so I can't understand any being behaving as this supposed god does.
"Hey and don't worry God doesn't make anyone follow Him."
Nonexistent beings can't make anyone do anything. They do tend to have the crappiest stories, though.
"You have the choice to spend eternity with the rest of those who want to look at themselves as being better than God, righteous in your own eyes."
Better than infanticide apologists, taking pleasure in their supposed deities immorality, under the guise of superiority.
I am more moral than your god.
You are probably more moral than your god.
My cat is more moral than your god.
If your god did exist, it would deserve neither worship or love, only abject horror and malice.
"My main point is that as "I'm free" ( but yet still in bondage) claims God was responsible for the actions the children of Israel committed was baseless according to the scripture He was referring to."
According to bible, GOD COMMANDED the war.
According to bible, GOD COMMANDED that they only leave the woman children that had not known a man alive for themselves.
If god commanded it, isn't he responsible for it?
"That makes him wrong."
So far, he has been the only one that was actually right, in your argument...
"As to my response to the women, it was simply to say there is nothing that describes what took place outside of the children of Benjamin took them for wives."
Indeed, enforced marriage is common in the bible, that doesn't make it moral.
"So you're presumption that they were raped is a guess."
I am certain ALL of the women were simply ecstatic to spread their legs for people that had killed their whole family.
"We don't know how they responded."
Speak for yourself, you are the only one gullible enough to believe that there wasn't any rape involved, which is simply an asinine assertion.
"As to your other question about the children. I will go back and make sure of the scripture you are talking about and I will get back to you."
You really shouldn't bother, your apologetic and weak and only prove that the god of the bible is an immoral toad. The very moment you see someone getting ready to defend genocide, rape, and murder; they have removed themselves from any moral argument. The very fact that someone would attempt it demeans the entire concept of morality, people who do it are worse than sociopaths, they aren't just immoral but they defend immorality.
Your evading my question, the Bible says you can own people as property, is it moral or immoral to own people as property?
Your evading my question, the Bible says you can own people as property, is it moral or immoral to own people as property?
Your in denial of what your reading. Your tap dancing around the issue. Lets address it again, I doubt repetition will help in your case but its worth a try. Now, if the Bible says you can own people as property, is it moral or immoral to own people as property?
I'm free
You probably thought I was avoiding your question, NOT.
God showed me something in our New Year's night watch service at our church. No the preacher didn't preach on it, and I didn't ask anyone except for my Lord. He just gave it to me at that time. it pays to wait on God.
You see you nor your buddies consider the spiritual side of things. Which is were God resides. And He looks at everything from the spiritual side of things. He is not oblivious to what takes place in death, or in any other circumstances that occur. He knows much more than man does.
You look at everything from man's or the worldly point of view. So you are blind to the spiritual.
I used to be that way also, until I was saved and understood that there really is more to life than just what you can see with the eye. The truth is that no matter how smart you or anyone else thinks you are, you will be blinded about spiritual things as long as you are unwilling to repent and turn to Jesus. As long as you continue to refuse to be born of the spirit you will not only remain ignorant to the spiritual side, but you will continue to disbelieve anyone that tells you the truth.
So for your question of slavery being moral or not, is not an issue for God. Slavery actually has a very strong showing of spiritual bondage, as all who have not accepted freedom through Jesus Christ, is under. Slavery is an accurate depiction of the lost and the Devil. The slave and the master. If slavery wasn't allowed then there would be no concept in the eyes of man to understand real bondage that the Devil has over people.
I've said this somewhat before in other forums, just not in so many words. This life as man knows it, is always going to have suffering in it, due to sin. If it didn't everyone would be satisfied and would have no need or desire to seek something better, (ie God). God doesn't want us to want to remain here. He desires that we would want to be with Him. But He needs us to be true to Him, in loving Him. God is Holy first and foremost, and in that He cannot have fellowship with sinners. At the same time He desires that all would come to Him. But He knows the only way people will truly come to Him with a loving heart, is by allowing us to have the ability to choose of our own will. The only way one will choose something better, is if what they have is less desirable than what is available. Though many choose to only look at what they consider righteous in there own eyes.
Proverbs 14:12 KJV
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
They choose to look at the evil things, or the bad things that happen to people, and blame it on God. When it is man's fault for the sin that doth so easily beset us.
With all that said, you asked me if I think slavery is moral or not. Of course it's not moral. Neither is lying, but have you ever lied? I'm sure you have. Stealing is not moral either, have you ever taken anything that didn't belong to you? Most likely. Is having hatred towards someone moral? No it's not, but I would find it hard to believe you don't hate others, considering some of the things you've said.
So are you saying it's ok for you to be immoral but not for someone your being critical of?
You may not realize that morals don't get you into Heaven. It doesn't matter how good of a person you appear to be to everyone else. God knows that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
"So for your question of slavery being moral or not, is not an issue for God. Slavery actually has a very strong showing of spiritual bondage, as all who have not accepted freedom through Jesus Christ, is under. Slavery is an accurate depiction of the lost and the Devil. The slave and the master. If slavery wasn't allowed then there would be no concept in the eyes of man to understand real bondage that the Devil has over people."
You are saying that your god allowed slavery so that he could provision an example of what happens when folks don't believe in him?
“With all that said, you asked me if I think slavery is moral or not. Of course it's not moral.”
That is one fact I can agree on but I go one step further; any god that commands thus condones human ownership of humans is immoral. The rest of your response consists of nothing more than drivel.
"So for your question of slavery being moral or not, is not an issue for God. Slavery actually has a very strong showing of spiritual bondage, as all who have not accepted freedom through Jesus Christ, is under. Slavery is an accurate depiction of the lost and the Devil. The slave and the master. If slavery wasn't allowed then there would be no concept in the eyes of man to understand real bondage that the Devil has over people."
I would say you’re the one enslaved by your beliefs by the time you waste going to church and forfeiting your hard-earned money. That is why I picked the nickname ImFree. I was forced to waste time growing up but I had no choice at the time. It is fantastic appreciating life while here and not enriching religious parasites. When you were born you beat incredible odds to be born. More than any lottery you could ever enter, but you choose to throw part of your life away. I’m so glad we have separation of church and state in the US, so religious fundamentalists like yourself do not have the power of state to force your nonsense on others. Theocracy is an obscene form of government.
Once again, a believer is trying to use perception as an argument. Sorry, personal view is not tangible. If you are not the author you can not argue a personal understanding. Especially with so many versions out there. You read it as a metaphor for believing vs. not believing, fine. Others have different perceptions and your not the authority on reasoning. Christians try so hard to twist the bad things in the bible, funny thing is they are all different and right at the same time. There are some things you just can't bullshit your way out of that is in the Bible. Rape, murder, andgenocide are three of them. Tell me, what is your excuse for God killing the first born sons just because he was mad at one guy, or did I read that wrong as well? How about the killing of innocent men, women, children, and the unborn because of the "sins" of a few? The Christian Judea God is the most natorious murdering god in the history of gods. Using a document that is one of the most corrupt version of the scriptures(KJV), is not helping your case either. Actually, using the bible to defend the bible is not all too smart either. That's like me using the Batman comics to justify the existence of Batman. "You don't smart good, do you?"
Just to return to the verse in the original post, when jesus says "I have not come to abolish th law but to fulfill it," the word "fulfill" means something like accomplish or complete. As in, all of that was leading up to Jesus, but now he's here we don't need it anymore. It's a bit like if I tried to describe a photograph to you, and then finally you saw the real thing. You'd be like "Oh NOW I see what you were getting at."
Also, the Bible is presented as a story, with people learning along the way. Thus, the people at the start that you quote a lot (Leviticus, Exodus etc) had less of an idea of what God was like and what he wanted than the people at the end. The Bible doesn't present itself as a textbook where every line is factual truth. It's a collection of writings from a lot of different people in a lot of different cultures over a long time. And together it gives us an idea of things like God and purpose, and what life is about and so on.
"The Bible doesn't present itself as a textbook where every line is factual truth."
While this may be true for your denomination or group, for many (fundamentalist) Christians, the Bible is presented as the inspired (factual) "Word of God." John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Therefore, if you doubt the Bible (the word of god), you also doubt god. Though not a universal view, this is dogma for many of the largest Protestant denominations in the US, including the one in which I was raised.
Obviously that does not make it right, but likely as many people believe this view as believe your view.
Yep you're right, many fundamentalist people do use the Bible like that. I am arguing for what the Bible itself claims about itself, not what other denominations claim. We can argue about the different beliefs of denominations til kingdom come; but if we keep the conversation about the actual Bible and what it says (instead of the traditions), we can still have a meaningful discussion.
The "Word" in John 1 is referring to Jesus, not the Bible.
If he did not come to abolish the law, that would mean it was still in effect, whether he himself fulfilled it or not. As a matter of fact, given that Christians are supposed to emulate Christ in many respects, wouldn't that mean that you should also try to fulfill or follow the law of the prophets? Not one jot or tittle will disappear from the law until heaven and earth pass away, right, so apparently god and Jesus both find the law to be important and still binding. However, I understand the need people who believe have to explain this away, given that the laws in question are nonsensical and sometimes morally bankrupt. As a matter of fact, if you abolish the law of the prophets, then you also abolish the big ten. You have disproved sin itself, way to go!
"Not one jot or tittle will disappear from the law until heaven and earth pass away, right, so apparently god and Jesus both find the law to be important and still binding."
This is an interesting point that my mother (she devoutly studies the Bible every day) brings up a lot. Jews back in the time that the Bible was written used "Heaven and Earth" as an idiom for "covenant." When someone in the Old Testament said "heaven and earth, they were talking about the covenent God made with Abraham. I know that sounds like just some excuse made up for convienince, but it actually makes sense and textual evidence throughout the Bible suggests that it does actually mean covenant. I can gather up the contextual evidence if anyone is interested.
That being said, when Jesus said "until Heaven and Earth pass away, he would have literally meant, until the old covenant is done away with. The old covenant was done away with when all of it that was prophesied had been fulfilled by christ. Also, when the Bible talks about a new heaven and earth, it would literally be meaning a new covenant.
You do make a good point about abolishing the ten commandments. Most of them are reitterated in the new testament, so the individual commandments are mostly still around, but the ten commandments in the stone tablet format are completely irrelevant in a new testament covenant outlook.
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