A huge proportion of people on this site are nasty.

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toto974's picture


...Are there no ideas that constitute a sacred part of the fabric of your being?

Why should a part/or the whole fabric of our being sacred? What are theses ideas you're talking about? Why the need to feel sacred?

Tin-Man's picture
Re: Sacred

Re: Sacred

Hmmm... Never thought much about it until now, but since it has been mentioned, I admit it makes me curious. Pray tell, what exactly makes something "sacred" such that it is put upon a pedestal, beyond question, beyond criticism, beyond reproach, and beyond examination? Seems like a fairly dangerous concept to me, if I am understanding Jo's meaning correctly. Hmmm... Sounds like a good idea for a thread...

Delaware's picture
@ Talyyn and others

@ Talyyn and others

I meant sacred as in ultimate reality. Something that is immutable. Such as truth and logic.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Jo

@ Jo

Something that is immutable. Such as truth

It is just as well I am storing all the surviving AR irony meters in the old bomb shelter....that comment coming from you would have destroyed them...even the steam powered ones would have got that one and imploded.

Cognostic's picture
@Ultimate Reality: Ha ha ha

@Ultimate Reality: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ..... does he win a prize for that bullshit?

toto974's picture


What the hell are you talking about?... There is only reality,no need to say ultimate. I'm thinking you're using a lot of euphemism here...

Truth??? What truth? Care to explain what this truth is? Logic is not sacred lol. And what the Hell does "ultimate reality" has to do with my precedent question? You were talking about a "sacred part of the fabric of our being".

Delaware's picture
@ Talyyn

@ Talyyn

You are right, I should have just said reality. Please see Cal original post, which is what I was responding to.

Do you not know what truth is, or is there such a thing as truth?
Are there any immutable laws?
Is there such ting as reality?

I would answer yes to all the above questions.
That is what I meant by sacred. One of the definitions of sacred is ultimate reality.

How say you?

Sheldon's picture
Jo "I meant sacred as in

Jo "I meant sacred as in ultimate reality. Something that is immutable. Such as truth and logic."

What the fuck is ultimate reality, and what objective evidence can you demonstrate for it as distinct from reality? It sounds like rhetoric to me. Nothing humans imagine can be immutable, all ideas, even truths evidenced with an unassailable amount of objective evidence must remain tentative in the light of new evidence. This doesn't mean they're ever likely to be completely reversed. It only means that any belief held as immutable will have no way to correct erroneous assertions, like religious theists clinging to the idiocy of creationist myths long ago debunked by scientific facts and objective evidence.

FYI logic is not immutable where on earth did you get that absurd idea from?

Your problem Jo, as with all apologists is you're not seeking the truth, you're seeking to conform something you believe is true. Your bias has already been manifestly exposed in the double standard of you accepting only your religious beliefs without any objective evidence.

David Killens's picture


"I meant sacred as in ultimate reality. Something that is immutable. Such as truth and logic."

Then why did you mis-apply a term, and called such things as hard facts or logic as "sacred"?

Just call them "truth", or just call them "logic", or just call them "immutable", don't call them "sacred".

Delaware's picture
@ David Killens

@ David Killens

I was using the words al used and was quoting the dictionary.
"inviolable sacrosanct, unassailable, untouchable, highly valued and important. a sacred responsibility."

Do you hold anything as "sacred", as in the above definitions?

Sheldon's picture
Jo "I was using the words al

Jo "I was using the words al used and was quoting the dictionary."

Now that's an irony overload, it's a shame you won't offer the same objective standard to others when they quote the dictionary definition of atheism, but then sadly you have shown yourself to be relentlessly dishonest.

Cognostic's picture
@Jo: Ummm Ultimate and

@Jo: Ummm Ultimate and immutable......... ummmm........ like......... ummm........truth? You obviously mean Ultimate Truth. Or is it Super Ultimate Double Top Secret Truth? You know there is truth and then there is truth. As for logic..... well...... if you knew anything at all about logic, you would have given up on your posts after day one. You know NOTHING about logic.

boomer47's picture
"...Are there no ideas that


"...Are there no ideas that constitute a sacred part of the fabric of your being?"

Well, seeing as you mentioned it----- Here is South Australia, Aussie rules football is revered to the point that some people have claimed it's our state religion. (Me? I hate team sports)

The only date in the calendar which is considered sacred in Oz is April 25, ANZAC DAY. In fact, in recent years, an increasing number of young people have made pilgrimage to ANZAC COVE, Turkey, for the ANZAC DAY dawn service (Me? 'revere' is a bit extreme for me , but I acknowledge and appreciate what the day means to millions of Aussies.)

Please don't get confused and think this a religious thing. It ain't. The point is patriotism, not religion.

Australia is one of the most secular nations on earth . As a nation, we have a healthy contempt for professional politicians and clergy . In gentler times, it might have been described as having a finely developed ability to detect humbug.

To answer the question without obfuscation; NO ,and it's impertinent to imply that I should.

I have no problem with the personal superstitions of others.Unless they try to insist I should share said superstitions. THEN I have a problem, and can be quite unkind.


For those of you who did not have the great good fortune to be born in Australia or New Zealand:

The full Wiki article is worth a glance

"Anzac Day (/ˈænzæk/) is a national day of remembrance in Australia and New Zealand that broadly commemorates all Australians and New Zealanders "who served and died in all wars, conflicts, and peacekeeping operations" and "the contribution and suffering of all those who have served".[1][2] Observed on 25 April each year, Anzac Day was originally devised to honour the members of the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps (ANZAC) who served in the Gallipoli Campaign, their first engagement in the First World War (1914–1918)."


algebe's picture
@Cranky47: The only date in

@Cranky47: The only date in the calendar which is considered sacred in Oz is April 25, ANZAC DAY.

Would that it were so, Cranky47. Both Australia and New Zealand also have weird outdated laws protecting Good Friday and Easter Sunday as sacred holidays in honor of some stupid superstition about rabbits, eggs, and nails.

I think ANZAC day should be revered, and I also think Christmas day should be a holiday, though in Australia/New Zealand it should be renamed Midwinter Day and moved to mid-June, when we all need cheering up. December here's nice enough without tinsel and turkeys.

boomer47's picture
I understand that.

I understand that.

As far as I can tell Xmas and Easter are only holidays and days of excess for most Aussies.

I'll keep my opinion that ANZAC day is the only day revered by the majority of Aussies, regardless of religious affiliation.

The only part of Xmas I still practice is lunch. I do not put up decorations . I fucking hate Xmas, and have for about 30 years.

ONE major exception: Xmas 1969, Singapore, in the army ; Woken at 6 am by an officer, bringing Jamaican coffee (dark rum and strong coffee. ) Slurp down a large mug of that, and go back to sleep until about 11. Lunch at the OR's mess,. (those below the rank of sergeant) Served by the officers ,traditional l hot Xmas lunch, with xmas pudding. Each man was given two free cans of cold beer. Not a heavy drinker in those days ,so 2 was plenty for me. Still have a photo taken at lunch.,in my army photo album. Don't think you can post photos here (?) Probably just as well .

PS 'cranky' is fine .You may omit the 47.

algebe's picture
@Cranky: As far as I can tell

@Cranky: As far as I can tell Xmas and Easter are only holidays and days of excess for most Aussies.

I'm not sure about Australia, but every Easter the New Zealand government sends out undercover agents to entrap shopkeepers committing the heinous crime of selling goods on Good Friday and Easter Sunday. They target garden centers in particular. This is in a legally secular country where the majority of people have no interest in religion.

I loved Xmas when I was a kid in England. In New Zealand and Australia it's just too hot to rush around malls or over-indulge in food and drink. I'll never forget the horror I felt on seeing a Santa arrive on a beach in New Zealand by jet boat, wearing a white beard and bright red hat, jacket, and budgie smugglers (speedos).

You can post pictures. Just click the box under "Attach Image/Video".

Calilasseia's picture
I would like to qualify my

I would like to qualify my "amen" just a little bit.
Naturalists are not immune from holding certain ideas as sacred.

There's a difference between regarding certain ideas as possessing merit on the basis of evidence, and treating ideas as "sacred". The former implies that one is prepared to jettison those ideas the moment they cease possessing evidentially supported merit. The latter does not.

We all are better at turning the bright light of skepticism on others, than we are on ourselves.
It is easy to see how others are wrong. It is hard to see how I am wrong.

Correction, it is difficult for those attached emotionally to certain ideas to do this. If one doesn't have an emotional attachment to a idea, one can jettison it with ease, the moment relevant data makes doing so appropriate.

Isn't saying that no idea should be sacred a contradiction?

No. Because the concept of subjecting ideas to test isn't itself "sacred", in the sense of being treated as unquestionably true. It's the product of observing the reliability of so doing. Once again, the moment this fails to be the case (though I consider this extremely unlikely), this is another concept that can be jettisoned.

Isn't that (no idea is sacred) a sacred idea?

No. See above.

Should no idea ever be sacred?

Never. Any idea that is presented in the arena of discourse, should be subject to test, to determine if it possesses merit. Without such test, you have no basis for determining the merit of that idea. An elementary concept that several would do well to learn.

Are there no ideas that constitute a sacred part of the fabric of your being?

No. As far as I'm concerned, every idea is a free fire zone for whatever discoursive ordnance is to be brought to bear, to determine the merit thereof.

The reason I regard the rules of discourse I've presented here repeatedly as applicable, is because said rules of discourse have repeatedly demonstrated their reliability. When one has evidence for the merit of a concept, uncritical acceptance thereof is null and void by definition.

David Killens's picture
FYI, since I have joined this

FYI, since I have joined this forum I have learned a lot and I have changed my position on a few preconceived concepts.

Cognostic's picture
Calilasseia: Damn I love

Calilasseia: Damn I love your posts. "the fake appeal to post style," "ideas, and assertions in particular, are a free-fire zone," No one on the site can deliver a bitch-slap pounding with such a delightful blend of wit, satire and disdain. I just love it!

boomer47's picture
Excellent post as usual Cal.

Excellent post as usual Cal.

I certainly enjoyed it

What I took away from your post: "you are not your ideas". Indeed, nor do our best or worse acts necessarily define us.

Unfortunately,I think our childish little Muslim may have shown us a bit of his true self . I mean, he's so petulant. I think his posts suggest, the mind of a spoiled child.

Please keep up your great posts. I for one always appreciate and enjoy them. On this occasion I suspect perhaps a bit above the head of the child.

OT: Are you/ Have you been a teacher/lecturer or written published work? If not, wasted talent I think.

Cognostic's picture
@cranky47: " I suspect

@cranky47: " I suspect perhaps a bit above the head of the child."
Now look what you have done!! Tin man is over in the corner crying and that is going to lead to a morbid infestation of body rust. Old Man is off his bike in the middle of the floor kicking and screaming in a tantrum, Logic has been reduced to a mumbling pile of gibberish as he writes and re-writes Calilasseia's post on the whiteboard over and over again, assuming he has missed something. David went into a fit of depression and was last seen wearing a red stocking cap as he defecated on the front lawn and Algebe has allegedly packed his bags and headed off to some remote island for another DOSE of coconut juice. You can't just come onto the site and insult everyone with comments like that. As soon as my wrists stop bleeding all over the keyboard, I will write a longer note and tell you what I really think about your insensitivity to the nice people on this site.

obvious edit

Tin-Man's picture
@Cog Re: To Cranky - "Now

@Cog Re: To Cranky - "Now look what you have done!! Tin man is over in the corner crying and that is going to lead to a morbid infestation of body rust."

...*using towel to catch tear flow from eyes*... *bawling uncontrollably*.... WHY???... *sob-sniffle-sniffle-sob*... Why me no can be smart?... *wailing howl of anguish*... Some... *hiccup*... body... *hiccup*... please... *sob-sob-hiccup*... get me... *hiccup-sob*.... my oil... *burrrrrrp*.... can... *bawling continues*.....

boomer47's picture
Oh, my bad. I deserve a good

Oh, my bad. I deserve a good birching . (please)

Tin-Man's picture
@Cranky Re: "I deserve a

@Cranky Re: "I deserve a good birching . (please)"

...*rummaging through closets and cabinets*.... Ummm... Dang... Sorry, Cranky, but no birch available. All I could find was this pot full of cooked spaghetti. Would fifty lashes with a wet noodle work for you?

boomer47's picture
Talking about my wedding

Talking about my wedding tackle will get will get you nowhere.

Randomhero1982's picture
Why don't you pray to your

Why don't you pray to your god for us to stop being mean and to treat you with dignity and respect...

Good luck with that dickhead, we eagerly await....

Mithridates's picture
"your so immature nasty

"your so immature nasty putrid filth vile scum."
-Cool maybe we're all that way.
-But it's supposed to be You're not Your.
-If I have to rot in non-existent Allah's hash judgement for that correction then so be it.

Cognostic's picture
@Jo: Joe in ultimate

@Jo: Joe in ultimate reality. Please prove me wrong. I mean, Jo is annoying on this site. He is repetitious. He has not yet learned the definition of Atheism. He insists on using straw man fallacies. Okay okay, he is not perfect and we can all deal with that. As a human being Jo is .... well..... annoying and probably someone you would not want to sit next to in a bar, but he does seem to function as a human being. This is not the case in "Ultimate Reality." Trust me, I have been there, in "Ultimate Reality," Jo is a scum sucking mindless blob of diseased amoebic fart gas.

boomer47's picture


Are not farts methane based? Could that mean multi celled organisms?

--or am I confusing chemical and organic pongs. ?

Cognostic's picture
@cranky47: The fact that you

@cranky47: The fact that you are confused is enough! The writer has succeeded. Ultimately you must understand that things are ultimately different in "Ultimate Reality."


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