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Lmale's picture
I need verification.

I want to know if i have this correctly.
Given the fact all the hydrogen that exists was created in the big bang and no new hydrogen is being made (well nones surviving quantum mechanics states in space an anti hydrogen and a hydrogen atom are always being created and destroying each other). Now suns convert hydrogen into all the common elements. Does that mean that eventually it will all be converted into other elements and there wont be enough left to make new stars.
Im no cosmologist or quantum theorist just a genius iq with a passion for documentaries and a bad memory from neurological suppressors i have to take so i need to know if im right.

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Zaphod's picture
I don't know if for a fact

I don't know if for a fact there is no hydrogen being made anywhere in the universe, I do I know there are ways to quickly dispel hydrogen from water by for example charging it, using algae or causing a chemical reaction by dropping some sodium hydroxide, ferrosilicon in. I am sure by chance alone with how vast the universe is there are huge planets causing rapid production at this very moment as well.

All Said there are many methods to produce hydrogen or to get it out of existing things created long ago when it was placed into them in the reactions that formed in suns. So in short no I don't think "that eventually it will all be converted into other elements and there wont be enough left to make new stars.

In another note, there are vast amounts of Hydrogen on earth just waiting to be tapped so I would not worry about earth running out anytime soon.

Lmale's picture
I wasnt talking about earth

I wasnt talking about earth was talking about the universe :) yes weve plenty hydrogen funny thing theres a shortage of helium but if this fusion succeeds (only years away from a full test) that will be sorted.
Ive watched alot of documentaries none have touched on the production of hydrogen other than the quantum production i mentioned. And none have discussed if the universe can breakdown elements to get hydrogen back its why i posted.

Zaphod's picture
Funny thing about helium was

Funny thing about helium was while I was writing my last comment I was thinking about how helium is finite and how we are always loosing it from earths atmosphere the whole time, also funny was also reading the comments with a helium narrator voice as opposed to the usual Morgan Freeman one.

I know your were not talking about earth though,I was trying to imply it was likely that the universe is somewhere both creating Hydrogen at a sub atomic level and also breaking down elements resulting in getting back hydrogen. But honestly I don/t know for fact about the Universe making hydrogen on subatomic level but do know it's very likely based on probability until proven one way or the other. If not eventually the universe and all its galaxies will go dead. I theorize the existence of natural sources of hydrogen creation it to be the case but still lack evidence or actual proof to make the case or rule it in or out for sure. We do know for a fact the sun splits hydrogen atoms (fission) setting off chain reactions that are likely to result in more things being made from the elements nearby.

I am sure somewhere there are probably masses of neutrons and protons ect.. Somewhere having reactions take place which result in large scale production somehow of hydrogen or other things that break down into it, perhaps it happens in black-holes. with light unable to escape them its hard for us know the chemical makeup of a black hole. We also know that if the sun runs out of hydrogen which it is projected to do in about a billion years or so unless things change and it gets a new source of hydrogen somewhere along the way,and he fusion process will begin and lithium anywhere near the fusion reaction will likely turn partially into tritium with a half life of about 10 years.

My point here is if its here there is probably a system somewhere in the universe to make it . I choose to believe the Universe is Cyclical but perhaps one day it just dies out turns dark and ceases to exist. There is much unknown but one thing is for sure Humans will likely be a completely different being living somewher else or cease to exist long before we run out of Hydrogen.

Lmale's picture
Interesting, unfortunately my

Interesting, unfortunately my assessment would be the latter mankind seems to be inherently self destructive.

efpierce's picture
It's a good concept lmale,

It's a good concept lmale, but I think it would take millions and millions of years for that to ever happen and perhaps by then we will be much more advanced and have achieved the ability to safely produce hydrogen ourselves.

Lmale's picture
We can turn hydrogen into

We can turn hydrogen into other elements its not even that complicated its how suns made every basic element and were very close to fusing hydrogen into helium using 192 of the most powerful lasers ever made. But the only ways to make hydrogen would involve building it, you could say atomic surgery. Or splitting, like helium into two halves that tends to be slightly dangerous lol

Lmale's picture
Oh and more like billions of

Oh and more like billions of years. Still alot of hydrogen out there. Its even possible one of the other potential ends would happen faster. The great crunch or the great darkness.

Zaphod's picture
I think there will be a

I think there will be a period of great darkness and it will probably precede or coincide the great crunch if one happens, I do think there will be a great crunch before another big-bang type event occurs I really think things just go on forever of course there is a big difference between me thinking something and knowing it. To be honest think its all just theory, people talk about dark matter growing the universe but I am more inclined to think its light itself that grows the universe and makes things move further and further away at an ever faster pace as the celestial gravity field grows weaker. The light has less to pull/push away from as the celestial bodies move apart and the gravitational pull get weaker. I wish I could prove it though, or someone could prove dark matter was actually growing the universe just if for no other reason we could put the theories to rest and give us something to work with.

Lmale's picture
Sorry but youve confused dark

Sorry but youve confused dark matter and dark energy dark matter is what keeps galaxies together dark energy is whats pushing galaxies away from each other.
Ofcourse theyve only proved the existence of dark matter due to lensing. They havent yet detected it any other way.
And dark energy is just a hypothesis. I prefer to think the reason galaxies ate travelling so fast and gaining speed is the result of the big bang it was so powerful there still accelerating. I think they will eventually slow down.

Zaphod's picture
I guess I did get a little

I guess I did get a little confused there. Please insert dark energy where I said dark matter above. Thanks for pointing that out.

I don't think the idea the big bang was so powerful the galaxies are still speeding up holds water. I am pretty sure Physics rules this out though, I guess it could be possible that things are different in space. Its also possible we are moving toward some invisible or undiscovered celestial body. There are so many possibilities.

I think the solar energy and light of stars is what is driving expansion. One could argue that they are still heating the reaction as they burn off Hydrogen and that in effect the big bang is still happening. When the hydrogen burns out and the suns die or go cold then that be like the big bang has come to an end at which point the universe would implode. to align with physics though its unlikely the big bang WAS so powerful they're still accelerating. However if it were still going on then it could be argued the big bang IS so powerful the universe is still accelerating. Had the big bang already occurred and come to an end then the driving force of inertia that still drives the universal accelerating expansion would have to be coming from somewhere else. I don't know for sure any of this but suspect its just the solar energy and light that's driving the further expansion.

Recently there was a discovery of Celestial bodies moving faster than the speed of light, I have not gotten a chance to look into the discovery yet but if they were talking in relation of other celestial bodies it would not be that a big deal. H owever if they are moving faster than the speed of light all on their own as in from point a to point b then that would have major implications and it would launch many many new theories into how this is possible. Interesting times for sure. One possible hypothesis could be that the universe is creating light drives as one could call them where things caught near or between intense galactic light sources could generate speeds faster than the speed of light. In such a case the circumstances would have to be just right, I guess anything is possible when you look into the unknown.

Lmale's picture
I would have expected the

I would have expected the discovery of anything breaking the soeed of light eould be big news.
Yea saw something on documentary today brian cox, said the bang isnt the reason for the speed he said space is stretching.

shazzam's picture
Hydrogen is the original

Hydrogen is the original element. Everything else is the result of stellar fusion. Eventually most hydrogen will have been fused into heavier elements so there won't be much hydrogen left. But I don't think that this would spell that there will be no more stars. Other elements still have gravity so they will accumulate into large masses either way. Maybe they will not shine because shining is the result of fusion.

SammyShazaam's picture
Um, *dude*. I was here first.

Um, *dude*. I was here first.

Lmale's picture
Thanks thats a good answer i

Thanks thats a good answer i didnt consider there could be say for example helium based stars.

Zaphod's picture
One good question to ask

One good question to ask would be where exactly does all the helium go when it leaves the atmosphere? it's got to go somewhere... I have no clue and the more I think about it the less of a clue I seem to have. I am really not sure a heliumstar can exist, maybe one can, though I don't think so. I think perhaps there are celestial bodies that have enough gravity to attract and even hold onto helium. I imagine trapped helium could wind up in a star but then I imagine it would be launched out rather quickly by the heat, pressure, solar winds, and the low weight compared to other elements but if the body of the star was made up of mostly helium I guess it could happen. if the gravitational pull of the the helium body as a whole were great enough I guess it could in theory hold it in. Perhaps this is exactly where helium goes when it leaves our planet.

I think though that a large collection of the noble gas helium in space would more closely resemble a gaseous planet and be inert so yes it would not really react. it would be kind of cool like a big invisible planet we could pass through. Perhaps a big enough amount gathered could even have a core but it think it would unlikely glow and it would have to be ridiculously huge for fission to occur if it were made up of helium. All said, maybe there exist somewhere a heliumstar.

CyberLN's picture
Where's an astrophysicist

Where's an astrophysicist when ya need 'em?! Let's put a call into NDT. :-)

Lmale's picture


Lmale's picture
Yea ive seen them, plus

Yea ive seen them, plus anything Stephen, cox, bill nyh and neil degrassey does. Also how the universe works series was damn good.
Youve watched them and are still religious? Im finding that a difficult concept.

Lmale's picture
Well they smash genesis to

Well they smash genesis to smithereens.

Zaphod's picture
It appears from what I am

It appears from what I am reading of mordyr's post so far he is one of those rare theist that come to these board and still manages to keep an open-mind. He has his opinions and beliefs realizes or more importantly admits he does not have all the answers but chooses to believe what he does for whatever his reasons are. He knows he does not need to always have an answer, he knows how to say he doesn't know something when he doesn't and he most importantly does not seem to be here to try and convert us to his form of theism. I welcome discussion with theist like him. Such theist can potentially lead to reasonable debate and discussion that actually helps to expand on viewpoints of both theist and atheist which is after all what debate is for..

We have had a few of open-minded thesist come along here and some still frequent the board form time to time, but they are a rare breed compared to the likes of the ones who have completely shut their brains down to reason and turn offensive when they find that we simply don't share their beliefs and often just use the forums as a soap box to yell their beliefs at us or threaten us with hell or shout bible verses at us. We lost a few of the reasonable theist during a period I call the board crusades when they overwhelmed the board with topic after topic where they ignored most anything the atheist would post in response if they did not feel supported their beliefs. One actually became so offensive it earned them the honor of being the first theist getting censored. IDK if you have read around much you can tell it very very hard to get censored on here. Some of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen were posted on these board at that time. Our conduct including mine did sink to some low levels which were probably necessary to get them to go away. Sad though cause I really liked debating things with some of the more open-minded theist we've had the honor of having on here. I don't know if they stopped coming around because they were embarrassed by the closed-minded theist or because intelligible conversations came to a near dead halt or because of the way some of us treated the crusaders or even for some other reasons having nothing to do with the boards, or even mixed reasons all together, but one thing is sure, we have not had so many reasonable theist posting on here since and I welcome any that actually want to debate discuss or simply engage with our community and keep an open-respectful-mind.

Lmale's picture
Im just saying if genesis is

Im just saying if genesis is wrong then what guarantees the rest of it.

Lmale's picture
Christians say the bible is

Christians say the bible is the word of god. The use the bible as evidence of god then use god as evidence of the bible.

Lmale's picture
Yup annoying. I find it hard

Yup annoying. I find it hard to believe i ever was one.

Lmale's picture
Hey guys my comment on the

Hey guys my comment on the controvesry story was picked and added to storied and opinions :)

SammyShazaam's picture
As hydrogen is the byproduct

As hydrogen is the byproduct of many common chemical reactions, I don't think we'll be running out of it anytime soon. This hydrogen which is continually circulating in our atmosphere is undoubtedly in the atmosphere of many other planets, and as it escapes it will go happily into circulation in the universe.

I used to ask the same question about finite elements. However, once you abandon the idea of a matter based universe and instead think of it as it's equivalent in energy, things start to make a lot more sense :)

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
Yea just think of hydrogen as

Yea just think of hydrogen as being made up of something smaller, then imagine that its comical composition depends on the distribution of those smaller things.
(this is for simplicity sake, it is much more complex then this)
Then you will realize that, every single element is infinite as the universe,
Check some information about how much energy there is in a single 1 cm cube of the vacuum/space.
You would be shocked, guaranteed.

Lmale's picture
Im not do you know why the

Im not do you know why the energy is in space latest research claims space is full of the negative energy created with the big bang.

Lmale's picture
Heres the thing that i think

Heres the thing that i think scientists have got wrong about dark energy.
They have decided its produced by space therefor as the universe expands there is more space so more dark energy.
What if dark energy was the result of the big bang. The production of energy also produced an equal amount negative energy thus balancing the natural scales.
This negative energy could permeate space and be what people think of as dark energy.
If im right then the amount of dark energy/negative energy is a fixed quantity. So eventually the forces should equalise and the expansion rate would taper off.
If im wrong then current hypothesis predict the expansion rate would eventually reach the speed of light causing the big rip.
The next thing to consider would be are the forces of dark energy and gravity going to overcome the finite dark energy and then start the big crunch.
Best case scenario all the forces equalise the universe still ends in the big chill due to entropy.
What do you think?

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
dark energy is an invented

dark energy is an invented term to represent the missing energy in the formulas.

the problem lies with the formulas, there is something that is being either overlooked or not represented correctly.

One such thing is the lack of knowledge of what actually there is at the center of all the big masses out ther.
We think we know or have a general idea, but the truth is that we don't
We don't even know what there is at the center of this planet.
Many theorist including Einstein suggested that a black hole might be at the center of the sun(tiny one) and it would explain why we use the formulas for black holes in our calculations when we send shuttles and satellites in space.
What is there at the center of the sun? Does it have functions that are not so apparent to us?
The power of spin is also overlooked. The planet is spinning around the sun in a spiral motion.
Torque must be inserted in Einstein field equations and then maybe we would find our missing energy rather then inventing energy that cannot be detected.
Dark Matter is something that we invented since we needed a name to explain the missing energy.

The universe is in equilibrium, if it wasn't like that we be dead already,
Since you didn't check how much energy contains 1 cm cube of 'empty' sprace/vacum, i will tell you.

This is not a fringe theory. This is fundamental to the accepted physics paradigms of quantum theory which deal specifically with the level of the universe where all things are energy, or at least where they oscillate between energy and form. As quoted in one of the most fundamental physics textbooks, Gravitation, by three of the most highly influential physicists of the 20th Century, Charles Misner, Kip Thorne, and John Archibald Wheeler:

“…present day quantum field theory “gets rid by a renormalization process” of an energy density in the vacuum that would formerly be infinite if not removed by this renormalization.” (Gravitation, p.426)

The resulting “renormalized” value that they got for the vacuum energy density was 10^93 grams per centimeter cube of space. That is 10 with 93 zeroes after it, an enormous number. But to put the true enormity of this number in perspective, if the entire known universe was compacted into a centimeter cube of space, it would only reach a density of 10^55 grams/centimeter cubed! In other words, the renormalized(reduced/cut) density for vacuum energy exceeds the mass of the entire known universe(we see from the Hubble telescope) … compacted into a centimeter cubed of space.

Yea if there wasn't equilibrium in the system we would die of radiation, imagine yourself swimming in energy far more powerful then the sun/black-hole and yet we feel nothing.
Just like a fish in the sea, it doesn't know that is in a medium which has hydrogen as his main component.

There must be perfect equilibrium where all the energies are cancelling each-other out.
There is simply no other explanation.

Travis Hedglin's picture
For the sake of this question

For the sake of this question I am going to assume you mean atomic hydrogen. In other words, the actual elemental atoms. An isotope of Hydrogen(H2), or Deuterium, can happen when diproton Helium undergoes beta-plus decay(you might know it as positron emission). Conclusion: Hydrogen makes up approximately 73% of the mass of the known visible universe, and it seems to be holding pretty stable, we won't be running out of gas anytime soon.


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