If God could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt?

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xenoview's picture
My girlfriend has a statue

My girlfriend has a statue that drips water, you add water then turn the statue upside down, then right side up to get it to drip. So maybe those weeping statues have a place to add water to the head for a slow drip.

Ryan Russell's picture
I am having a hard time

I am having a hard time finding a thread that has any actual debates about the existence of God without one side attacking the other. Does anyone here have a thread they can give me for a discussion that doesn't resort to attacks as a way of communication?
I am an atheist. However I have yet to be stumped in responding to: God exists, and God does not exist.

-Thank you

MCDennis's picture
I am happy to have a debate

I am happy to have a debate without an attack. Atheists like me don't assert that gods don't exist. They/ we/ I don't believe the claims made by others that gods do exist. The party making the positive claim that gods or god exists has the burden of proof. What proof do you have that gods or god exists. This is Not an attack. It is a question. Please provide proof of gods existence.

Ryan Russell's picture
There is little need to

There is little need to contest with a fellow atheist on the existence of a God, or Gods. It's easier to have a talk about what reasons we have for not believing, or especially proving, that God(s) do not exist.

Using logic to disprove, or put into question, the likelihood of an existing God(s) is my reasoning, and my argument, for my disbelief and for why others should not believe in God, or Gods. ;D

MCDennis's picture
What the hell !!! I am not

What the hell !!! I am not interesting in accepting the theist's burden of proof. It is not my job to prove that gods don't exist. The party making the positive claim that a god does in fact exist does in fact have the burden or proof. Prove that a god exists is the only reasonable way to approach this argument.

Ryan Russell's picture
1.) There is no theoretical

1.) There is no theoretical model that can be used to prove or disprove God. God cannot be measured without a model.
2.) Since God cannot be measured, only statistics and logic can be used to make the argument of whether God exists or God does not exist. Mathematically put: the CHANCE of a God existing, or the chance of God not existing is the only argument that has substance because it does not require a theorem. Your argument based on these conclusions would then be presented in percentages, or "chance of n".
Here are some examples for both views...

God exists:

The only valid argument for the existence of God(s) from a logical stand point is Majority vs Minority.
3% of the world is atheist. So obviously 97% of the world is theist, although agnostics fit as a small percentage in both atheist and theist, as a category.
So posit this: If the only beings that we know who can ask the "God Question" are humans, and 97% of humans existing today believe that some sort of God(s) DOES exist, than by majority God must exist.
Support for this argument might include the fact that, world wide, there is a vast percentage of the scientific population, once again the majority, that believe in God(s). So if this question was asked in reference to only those in the scientific community, the majority would, once again, be that God exists.
-----------

God does not exist:
Examples of qualities often given that God(s) possess: Immortal, omnipotent, omnipresent, supremely good, a creator and a giver of purpose.

The qualities that we give God(s) are only labels and words of something we can only image, but not experience. So we cannot comprehend the qualities that we give to God(s), so therefore we cannot comprehend God.
The chance of an entity having one of those qualities is infinitesimally small. The chance of possessing ALL of the qualities is even more ( admittedly redundant stated ) infinitesimally small.
The qualities we may name that a God may have can and often are the same qualities given to demons, devils, angels, aliens, or otherwise considered "supernatural beings". So even if we were to discover such an entity, because we cannot comprehend IT or GOD's(S) qualities as we know them, than we would not be able to distinguish between what is God and what is not God!

The chance of God(s) existing is so close to zero that it may as well be zero; God does not exists.

LogicFTW's picture
Sure there is a theoretical

Sure there is a theoretical model for proving god, for the purposes of this discussion, I am temporarily no longer an atheist. I believe in God X. God X is real, he is proven real because he is 100 feet tall and chilling in Madison square garden in NYC right now taking questions and smoking a 50 foot tall bong.

Wait, you mean to tell me there is no god like thing smoking a 50 foot bong in NYC? You are quite sure? Whoops looks like you just proved my god is not real.

Oop, back to being an atheist now, I apologize for that moment of insanity.

The only reason many religion gods can not be disproven is because scholars keep moving the goal post on proof, until more recently they had to move it all the way into the realm of pure fantasy. God is no more or less real than any other made up entity that people created the burden of proof against it impossible. As I always like to say, there is no more proof for god then their is for the flying spaghetti monster.

Other pools/studies/consensus work that puts atheism quite a bit higher then just 3 percent. Anywhere from 5 percent to 15 percent. But that is kind of besides the point. Yes, a lot more theist then atheist at the moment. Although strong theist that worship their god every day, proselytize etc is on the decline in first world countries, and have been for sometime now. Many churches can not fill their churches anymore, even though population has grown rapidly. These people that identify themselves as christian etc cant be botherd to give up their sunday mornings anymore.

Back to your post, yes lots more theist, but they are steadily giving ground to atheist/agnostic, (long term.) And ofcourse they are badly fractured among them selves. The fact that there is hundreds of different varieties of god interpretation out there is one of the strongest points against theism, not for.

Ryan Russell's picture
You're reiterating my point.

You're reiterating my point. There is no measure, no theory, no theorem and therefore no model to use in the "Is there a God" question, so there can be no proof for or against. That is why logic is the only course we have available at the moment that is even worth putting forth...and a trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth percent chance that there is a God should lead rational people to not waste time worshiping something that, in essence, does not exist.

In 2008 it was 2.4% for atheists. In 2016 it has risen to 3.1%. However the increase in agnostics going theist or creationist has increased.
The number of atheists can be increased roughly by .8%, or optimistically by 1%, due to people not wanting to admit they are atheist for whatever reasons.
These statistics are not that difficult to find, but people tend to trust different sources, hence the variance. ;D

Sky Pilot's picture
NewFinland,

NewFinland,

So you want to prove that Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews, exists beyond a reasonable doubt?

Exodus 3:18 (ERV) = “The elders will listen to you. And then you and the elders will go to the Pharaoh. You will tell him, ‘Yahweh is the God of the Hebrews. He came to us and told us to travel three days into the desert. There we must offer sacrifices to Yahweh our God.’"

Exodus 34:13 (ERV) = "Don’t worship any other god. I am Yahweh Kanah—the jealous Lord. That is my name. I hate for my people to worship other gods."

Isaiah 42:8 (ERV) = “I am Yahweh. That is my name. I will not give my glory to another. I will not let statues take the praise that should be mine."

Hosea 12:5 (ERV) = "Yes, Yahweh is the God of the armies. His name is Yahweh."

Amos 9:6 (ERV) = "He built his upper rooms above the skies. He put his skies over the earth. He calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out as rain on the land. Yahweh is his name."

I think you have to offer Yahweh a goat or something.

charvakheresy's picture
@ New Finland...

@ New Finland...

Not much is required. Your God needs to make a public appearance, claim He/She /It is God or one of many Gods or whatever. Then proceed to pass certain standardised tests which would include of course scientific knowledge and of course do a miracle or two under testable conditions.

I had to pass extremely difficult examinations to be a qualified Doctor so I guess its only fair your God proves their qualifications as well.

But it all starts with your God making an appearance..... Like I said, I had to go to the exam hall to give my test. I couldn't have the examiner believe I was all intelligent even though I didn't show up. Right!

LogicFTW's picture
I like that, I could morph it

I like that, I could morph it into an argument against theists.

"I should just believe your god without any test? Should I just believe a person is a doctor with out any schooling or residency or test?

...I am sure someone could phrase that better, but it still a good point to make.

hermitdoc's picture
I've said it before and I'll

I've said it before and I'll say it again. To borrow the words of Matt Dillahunty, I don't really know what would convince me of any god's existence, but he/she/it would certainly know what it would take to convince me. As of yet, he/she/it has failed to provide that evidence and thus I remain unconvinced.

Jeeman's picture
@NewFinland ... Hi : )

@NewFinland ... Hi : )

To Prove and Accept a God:

We would need to exist in a different universe; one with vastly unfamiliar physical laws and properties. In that strange world gods would be a natural occurence. As such, reasonable thinkers in that 'other universe' would not find the existence of gods strange at all.

Interestingly, in that 'other universe' that supports godly lifeforms, the people who maintained that gods were omnipotent, eternal, and mysterious would be the 'non-believers' or 'deniers'.

xenoview's picture
Even if a god could be proven

Even if a god could be proven real, why does it need us to worship it. It would more than likely be off somewhere else in the universe creating more life on other planets, instead of listing to our stupid prayers to it.

MCDennis's picture
No no no. The god of the

No no no. The god of the bible is involved in the daily lives of all of his creations. The god is not off creating more life. The god is all powerful and all knowing. So... instead of being distracted by creating other planets or universes, the god is busy spreading aids in africa, and giving people cancer, and apparently the god is also busy making sure accidents and wars and weather kills millions of his favorite people. In addition, he is busy ignoring prayers.

Honestly how could you be this wrong. The god is not distracted... it's just busy

Heartplace's picture
@Charvak -- "Not much is

@Charvak -- "Not much is required. Your God needs to make a public appearance, claim He/She /It is God or one of many Gods or whatever. Then proceed to pass certain standardised tests which would include of course scientific knowledge and of course do a miracle or two under testable conditions."

Pretty much this!! And also he would have to answer a lot of disturbing questions and have a lot to apologize / feel ashamed for..... As someone has said (forgot who), for his own good he'd better NOT exist. :D

MCDennis's picture
Heartplace, I agree that a

Heartplace, I agree that a personal appearance would be a great start.

xenoview's picture
I think a personal appearance

I think a personal appearance is in order, followed by a Q&A with Atheist.

Usagi's picture
Why can't the God that wants

Why can't the God that wants to be worshiped and praised by all just freaken show itself and speak to all without all the bullshit. Keep it real deities. lol All that power and can't even communicate straight. All the drama, it's ridiculous!

I have a big ego so no I would not worship it, I don't have a need for it. :P

Ryan Russell's picture
If God is all powerful and

If God is all powerful and supremely good there is no excuse as to why IT would not show it's face to us, it's creation unless it's in IT'S best interest ( and/or ours ) not to.
But if IT is all powerful and all knowing and all good...could IT not come up with a way to show ITSELF? ;D

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