I love it when the theists assert, "You can't have a purpose in life without God." Are you shitting me? Imaginary friend, imaginary purpose! Think about it. You can have a purpose that can not be measured in any way. You can have a life fulfilling purpose without ever having to face the risk of failure. You can have a purpose that other people with the same purpose admire and insist that it is the highest of all purposes. You can have a purpose that insists all other purposes, things like education, earning money, providing for a family, getting a good job, having good friends, buying a car that you really like, and more, are all empty purposes with no meaning. As a Christian, you can have a purpose that is not even in this world. Your purpose will come to you after you die. Why waste a life on earthly purposes when your true purpose is waiting for you after you die? Just believe, have faith, and know that only those people who think like you have real purposes. Imaginary purposes are so much safer than real purposes. Anyone else notice this?
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@Cog Re: OP
Hmmmm.... Fascinating. Never thought of it that way before. Damn good point... *nodding head in agreement*...
@Tin: It was an epiff epiff epiff a knee. I woke from a nap with it knocking on my mind and I had not heard it put that way before myself. I thought I was onto something so I pulled the banana out of my ass and posted it. (The idea, not the banana. I am saving the banana for later.)
They don’t take imaginary money though! Jesus wants the real thing!
@Pirate Jack: So True! Real money for fake healing, useless prayers, and expensive blessings. It's all set up so you can prove you are pious through your donations and pay your way into heaven.
Sometimes you have to sit back and marvel how good of a scam religion is. I mean really. People give money every week, willingly, then give large amounts again when they die. They cleverly inserted themselves into the death ceremony, just incase you have other things on your mind (like the death of a loved one,) and the payback happens after people die, where no one can possibly report if the rewards were actually there.
And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
@Logic Re: "And this is just the tip of the iceberg."
Well, to be more accurate, it is just the tip of the dick going in without lube.... lol...
Religion is a great business model. If you can get people hooked on your package of phony fear and hope in childhood, they'll cough up money all their lives.
Does anyone else see a parallel between religion and the tobacco industry?
@Algebe Re: "Does anyone else see a parallel between religion and the tobacco industry?"
Exactly. Speaking of which, here's another little fun fact about the tobacco companies. Many of them also manufacture and sell the nicotine patches and various other products to "help people stop smoking." THAT is pure genius, if you ask me.
Great insight Cog! I assure you I am stealing it!
@chimp3: Yep, fellow chimp, I expect that! And you are certainly welcome to it.
@ Cog
First I want to say I am sorry to hear that theists have been asserting that atheists cannot have a purpose. Obviously that is not true. All of the things you've mentioned are great, life fulfilling purposes.
However I feel I need to clarify that Christians are called to have purposes on earth, and not to just focus on the afterlife. James 2:14 says "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?" (Cog you and I have talked extensively about this). This means that Christians are called to be fruitful in their lives by blessing the people around them and fulfilling their earthly purposes. I have to disagree with you when you say earthly purposes have no meaning to us because Jesus actually tells us the opposite. The only difference between your purpose and mine is that I get to fulfill my ultimate purpose in Christ.
@Josh: This is a picture of a cheese sandwich ::: This is a picture of a cheese sandwich that has been blessed ::: Please tell us all which one is the "BLESSED" cheese sandwich.
This is a picture of a tomato O This is a picture of a tomato whose ultimate purpose has been filled by Christ. O Please tell us all which is the tomato that has had its' life fulfilled by Christ.
No one needs Christ to do a good deed. This is a happy man who's earthy purpose is to go to work, provide for his family, and support his community. :-) This is a happy Christian man who has faith and does not have works. He is fulfilling his earthly purpose (whatever the hell that means). :-) Please tell us exactly what the Christian with the fulfilled earthly purpose has done with his faith that the other man could not also have done without faith, that is not imaginary.
Like I said... Imaginary Friend, Imaginary Purpose.
(EDiT ) Left out the word "What."
@ Cog
"No one needs Christ to do a good deed."
Thats absolutely true. I'm not disagreeing. All I am trying to say is that a person's faith should be tied to their works - they are not separate.
Both the Christian and the non-believer can do amazing work on earth but the difference is one is working for a purpose greater than himself.
Josh, you wrote, “Both the Christian and the non-believer can do amazing work on earth but the difference is one is working for a purpose greater than himself.”
I completely agree! The atheist is working for the benefit of her fellow earth inhabitants. She is doing so out of kindness and care. The theist is doing things to earn a reward.
@Josh Re: "Both the Christian and the non-believer can do amazing work on earth but the difference is one is working for a purpose greater than himself."
got arrogance?
Here are some works done by a person with no faith at all (W). Here is a person doing the exact same work (W) with no faith at all.
What's the difference?
Here is a man working for a purpose greater than himself (Whatever the fuck that means) (PGTS) Here is a man doing the exact same thing without a purpose greater than himself. (-PGTS) Please watch the two men and tell me what is different.
Imaginary friend = Imaginary purpose greater than yourself.
@Josh Re: "The only difference between your purpose and mine is that I get to fulfill my ultimate purpose in Christ."
Oh, Josh... *shaking head in sympathy*... Josh, Josh, Josh, Josh, Josh... *deep sigh*... Please, do tell, what the HELL does that mean, exactly? I suppose what I mean is that according to how I was raised as a Christian, God has a Perfect Plan that CANNOT be changed. Meaning that every single person who EVER lived or ever WILL live is in some shape, form, or fashion part of that plan REGARDLESS of whether they believe in that God or not. And everybody has their part to play in that plan in exactly the role they were assigned and in the fashion God designed. So, with that in mind, you seem to be saying you are one of the elite chosen few who got assigned "Godly purposes", while the rest of us poor degenerate slobs do your God's good deeds but are still destined for the eternal Pyro Pond. Fine. Whatever. But humor me for a moment while I share something I've been dealing with the past four or five days. It is a bit "involved", but I will condense it as best I can.
I have an Uncle who is disabled (stroke and diabetes). I am the only member of my family able/available to help him. (Dr. appointments, yard work, finances, etc.) I am on my Uncle's bank accounts and help him manage his money.
I have a sister. Bi-polar. Emotionally unstable. Chronic "victim syndrome". Very narcissistic. Unreliable. Non-trustworthy.
Sister lives with my Dad who was never part of my life until about five years ago. Dad is in poor health. Dad has also been involved with phone scammers for the past two years, despite having been warned by myself and other friends/family members. I shudder to think of how many thousands of dollars he has sent to those fuckers. Dad and I no longer communicate due to the fact he has repeatedly tried (and sometimes succeeded in) getting money from my Uncle.
I have a nephew (sister's son) who is struggling with drug addiction. Earlier this month, my sister asked my Uncle for a large sum of money to help my nephew get into rehab. My Uncle gave her the money before telling me about it. Surprisingly enough, my nephew actually got into rehab, although I am highly skeptical that all the money given to my sister was used for that purpose. As such, I asked my Uncle to please let me know if she asked for anymore money.
Sure enough, she did exactly that. An even larger sum this time that was needed for my nephew to transfer to an out of state facility. I called and checked around. My nephew being transferred was legit, but the amount of money requested by my sister was suspect.
Long story short, I had my Uncle allow me to handle the funds, and my nephew is currently in a place receiving the help he needs. And I am happy to say he seems to be doing well. Come to find out, though, my sister had planned all along to skim a large portion of the funds for herself (roughly a third). Meaning I prevented my Uncle from being cheated out of a large chunk of his money. Suffice it to say, the stress over the last few days has been almost maxed.
So, since I am an atheist and do not believe in your God who plans on sending me to be tortured for eternity after I die, I have a favor to ask of you. Whenever you die and see God in heaven, tell that ungrateful fucker I said he's goddamn welcome.
Edited to add: Oh, and I forgot to mention that my sister went bat-shit ballistic when she discovered the money would not be put in her grubby little hands. Moreover, while not very devout, she considers herself a Christian and looks down her nose at my being an atheist. Plus, my Uncle is a devout Christian and a genuinely good man. He was the closest thing I had to a father while growing up.
Never Mind..... @TIN - I wish you luck..... I have nothing good to say about recovery programs.
@Cog Re: "I have nothing good to say about recovery programs."
Believe me, I understand. I am highly skeptical of them myself. But at least my nephew voluntarily made the decision on his own to put himself in there. So I'm trying to hope for the better and give him some positive support.
@Tin: I just wish you and your nephew loads of luck.
@Tin: Wait a minute! Even though I do play poker, I don't really believe in luck. You will have to accept my "Hope" that things turn out for the best.
The real difference is whatever purpose I attach to my life is objectively real. Not an imaginary delusion, like the afterlife you're kidding yourself exists without any objective evidence.
@Josh:First I want to say I am sorry to hear that theists have been asserting that atheists cannot have a purpose.
They also tell us frequently that we have no morality because morality can only come from god. Then I consider religious wars, inquisitions, and the behavior of the Church of Ireland during the potato famine, and I wonder how so many people can have so little sense of irony. I'm just a godless atheist, but I could never walk by on the other side.
You may find your ultimate purpose in Christ, but people are enough for me.
Imaginary friend = imaginary morality. Christians only assert they have morality and then point to the butchering murdering god of the Bible as their moral compass. They have the 10 commandments, and confuse moral dictates with morality. Moral behavior that is the result of seeking a reward or avoiding a punishment is not moral at all. It's just selfishness and self preservation disguised as morality.
Imaginary friend = imaginary morality?
Very interesting.
I've also found it odd that theists proclaim an objective morality and/or a god given purpose, yet it is completely unknown to so many.
Surely if it was given by supreme being, it would be obviously, clear, concise, not up for interpretation and believed by all.
@josh
“Both the Christian and the non-believer can do amazing work on earth but the difference is one is working for a purpose greater than himself.”
You are aware that people of all creeds and no creed do works in this world that cure disease, promote peace, provide food and water to the needy, etc. Are these not purposes greater than oneself?
Anything done for others may be reasonably called doing some thing for a purpose greater than oneself
I have never been able to understand the purblind ignorance and arrogance of many christians, especially . I refer to their ignorant and arrogant dogmatism, with their claims of THE exclusive, absolute truth.
Often they don't even know the tenets of their own faith. Within Catholic theology for example, an atheist who lives a good life according to his own lights, will go to heaven. ,
Makes sense to me. If a person is not free to live according to his own conscience, then he cannot be said to have freedom of choice, imo.
Besides, a Pope said so not that long ago.
"May 23 2013
"Pope Francis raised a lot of eyebrows Wednesday after saying all people who do good works, including atheists, are going to heaven."
Of course revisionists are all over this, explaining what the Pope REALLY meant. Seems pretty unambiguous to me .
@Coldwx: Agree! After all......
These are the men of all creeds that do works in this world and cure disease, promote peace, provide food and water to the needy, etc... These men are working for a purpose greater than themselves, to end human suffering.
These are the good Christians who cure disease, promote peace ( I choked on that one), provide food and water to the needy, etc..... These men are working to please an invisible magic sky being that can open the gates of an magical invisible sky kingdom.....where they can all live in bliss for the rest of eternity. As a side effect of their effort to please the magical sky daddy, they help a few people.....
I still assert that if you actually look at the two groups you will not be able to tell the difference. To do that, you would have to start talking to them. The ones with the imaginary friend have the imaginary purpose.
Now "Josh," look at the two groups and explain what is different.
@THIS THREAD IS TURNING OUT TO BE MORE FUN THAN I IMAGINED.
Doing good for reward or to avoid punishment are both good reasons. Both motivate me, but I'm aware they are selfish, and not praiseworthy.
That kind of humbug is found in something as basic as the Catholic "Act of contrition" :
"O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of Heaven and the pains of hell, -------" That makes the rest seem just a smidge disingenuous:
"----------but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who are all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve with the help of Thy grace to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my life. Amen."
Have long wondered how a talking ape could possibly offend/disappoint the creator of the universe, with infinite attributes , one of which is all knowing, of every act we will make in our life.
Imo there are altruistic acts, many. Why I've even been guilty of such acts myself from time to time . However, as far as I'm aware,I've never so far actually met an altruistic person .That includes on atheist forums, which tend to have more moral people to the acre than any bunch of pious humbugs.
I almost made an unkind comment about one of our visiting pious humbugs, but can't be bothered.
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