Jo's dishonest pretence of debate.

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Tin-Man's picture
@Cog Re: "The person who

@Cog Re: "The person who uses the most fallacies gets an 'A' in the class. New Skeptic spilled the beans."

...*clearing throat*... Ahem!... For the record, I just want it to be known that NewSkeptic is trying to take credit for the work done by Todd (my imaginary friend), in an effort to pass his silly apologetics class. Oh, and nevermind that I coerced Todd in doing that for me so that I could pass my vitally important Sock Puppet Arts-n-Crafts class. That is irrelevant. It's not my fault NewSkeptic doesn't have his OWN imaginary friend to do his work for him. Anyway, just wanted to set the record straight on that.

Simon Moon's picture
@ALL: Jo is a member of an

@ALL: Jo is a member of an apologetics class, along with some of the others. The person who uses the most fallacies gets an 'A' in the class.

An 'A' in class? It looks like it gets you book deal!

I've got a bookshelf full of apologetics books (given to me by relatives trying to 'save my soul'), by the likes of: WLC, McDowell, Strobell, Plantiga, Habermas, Geisler. All using the same fallacies.

Cognostic's picture
@Tin-Man: Perhaps you could

@Tin-Man: Perhaps you could convince Todd to visit NewSkeptic and stay with him forever. That would kill two negligible beings with one poo fling. Think about it. New skeptic would have a friend to talk to so he would leave us the fuck alone. Todd would be busy with his new friend and he would leave us the fuck alone as well. I know for a fact; if you write New Skeptic's phone number on your bathroom wall, Todd will call it. Good Luck!

NewSkeptic's picture
@Cog

@Cog

Now wait a friggin minute here. WTF did I do to deserve having to play with Tinny's imaginary friend, why am I deemed "negligible" and why the fuck do I need to leave you the fuck alone? Not to mention, Tin promised to keep my number private after our last "oiling" session.

Tin-Man's picture
@NewSkeptic Re: "Not to

@NewSkeptic Re: "Not to mention, Tin promised to keep my number private after our last "oiling" session."

Oh, dang, that's right! I did! Crap... Sorry, dude. But, in the interest of full disclosure, if you tell ME something, it's basically just like telling Todd, too. He and I are tight like that. On the plus side, though, Todd was so blitzed at the time that maybe he won't remember... *shrugging shoulders*...

NewSkeptic's picture
So, when I heard you

So, when I heard you repeatedly yelling "Oh God", I was mishearing, and you were actually yelling "Oh Todd"? That's just plain weird.

Tin-Man's picture
@NewSkeptic Re: "So, when I

@NewSkeptic Re: "So, when I heard you repeatedly yelling "Oh God", I was mishearing, and you were actually yelling "Oh Todd"? That's just plain weird."

Oh-good-grief, NO! Why the hell would yell, "Oh, Todd,"??? Sure, Todd and I are good friends, but we're not THAT good of friends. Geez! You think I'm some kind of weirdo or something? I was actually yelling, "Oh, SOD!" (I have a grass fetish.)

Cognostic's picture
@Tin: And the the drunken

@Tin: And the the drunken asshole laying on the grass sleeping had to wake up and get his ass moving. Damn Sod.

Cognostic's picture
@Jo: Serious for a moment,.

@Jo: Serious for a moment,. Where in the fuck do you come up with the inane bullshit you post. Is it just to make assertions and be contrary? WTF is wrong with a person who behaves like that? Did their mother drop them on their head when they were young? Was your baptism something like this???
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFGHerqhSC8

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Cog

@ Cog

I think I said: When Jo first came he purported to be a seeker of truth, a humble person who wanted to "live in truth". We have discovered that that is not the case, Jo is committed to mendacity and is a stranger to truth, facts or reason.

Why? I have no idea, unless he is a hater of Billy Goat Gruff.

Jo's picture
@ Cognostic

@ Cognostic

When you were a Christian how did you think of and talk to those who were not like you?
If you had posted on AR would you have been to Atheists as you now are to Christians?

There seems to be a lot of former Christians here, who now hold Christians in contempt.
I don't understand how they can be that way towards those of us, who are what they used to be.
Seems similar to a recovering alcoholic having disdain for those still in the throes of addiction.
Or former wretched sinners in a Church talking about all those wretched sinners in the world.
Shouldn't someone who was blind, but now can see, have compassion on those who are still blind.

LogicFTW's picture
@Jo

@Jo
I have little, if any compassion towards people that willfully lie or believe in a lie. Especially when all the evidence that any religion/god idea is a lie, is out there for them in a 2 second google search. Then try to get everyone else in on their lie so they can feel better about themselves. All the while the top perpetrators of the lie benefit enormously.

This is not the same as a recovering alcoholic, this is about lying. And it most certainly does not compare to religious folks that think they have "sinned."

For the blind comparison, that one is perhaps the most "accurate" except the cure to blindness is to simply open your eyelids instead of being scared and keeping them shut.

I actually have a lot of compassion and mostly keep my mouth shut about this for friends/family. But people that come to the atheist debate board? Oh yeah I am going to have close to zero compassion. Even though I well understand most folks that believe in this lie were taught this lie since a young age by likely all their most important peers.

Jo's picture
@ Logic FTW

@ Logic FTW

Do I have it right - ALL theist are liars and/or believe a lie?

Do you realize how similiar to some fundamentalist you sound like?
You KNOW the truth and everything else is a lie?
You KNOW the motives, reasoning, hearts, and intents of every theist?

You have presented much that you call facts and evidence, but it is just opinion, conclusions and beliefs.
Claiming that all religions are made up by humans is not a fact nor is it evidence.
It is a conclusion, an opinion or a belief.
Just because you BELIEVE something is a fact does not make it one.

LogicFTW's picture
@Jo

@Jo

Do I have it right - ALL theist are liars and/or believe a lie?

Pretty much. I can't know that with 100% accuracy, but I would happily bet my entire life savings, and all future income, that religion is a lie, I am that confident in my conclusion. I am additionally happy to risk the possibility of roasting in hell for eternity, and missing out on "heaven." The facts and evidence are that compelling to me.

Do you realize how similiar to some fundamentalist you sound like?

No I have not realized that, perhaps I do sound similar to some fundamentalists. But I do think it is pretty fundamental that god is a lie, born out of human imagination. A lie perpetuated by fear and violence.

Claiming that all religions are made up by humans is not a fact nor is it evidence.

You are right that it is not fact or evidence. What I wrote is the conclusion, and the facts and evidence easily leads to that conclusion.

You KNOW the truth and everything else is a lie?

I never said that. I simply stated that I think it is extremely likely there is no god, (certainly no god like the ones portrayed by religions!) I said nothing about knowing all truths and anything anyone else says is a lie. Seems to me like you are putting words in my mouth in an effort to make me sound bad.

You KNOW the motives, reasoning, hearts, and intents of every theist?

Of course not, but I can make fact/evidence based conclusions about theist as a whole in relation to it being a lie.

You have presented much that you call facts and evidence, but it is just opinion, conclusions and beliefs.

I only presented one fact so far: and that is humans are capable of lying and creating fictions. Really it is the only fact you need. I can provide plenty of evidence that following evidence and facts, leads to better conclusions then simply believing what other people tell you. Being skeptical of other people because you know they can lie is a highly useful skill. I think that can be easily demonstrated.

Claiming that all religions are made up by humans is not a fact nor is it evidence.

I claim it providing a fact. A fact you can easily test for yourself, can you lie? Yes? Then yes people are capable of lying. Can you make up a fictional story? Yes? Then people are capable of doing that. Can you perform a study/test and see if people that follow facts and evidence rather than simply what other people tell them, tend to have far better outcomes? Yes. I could perform that test on these forums anytime I like and it would corroborate thousands of similar such "experiments" already done.

Just because you BELIEVE something is a fact does not make it one.

Agree with you there. What would be really amazing: is if you applied what you just wrote, to yourself and your "god" idea. Seriously, I would probably fall out of my chair in surprise. And I would root for you and support you the whole way as you came to the inevitable conclusion, that is what you just wrote.

Simon Moon's picture
I know this was directed at

@Jo

I know this was directed at Logic FTW, but I want to respond to the last sentence.

"Just because you BELIEVE something is a fact does not make it one."

This is absolutely true. But how does one go about discerning if what they believe, or other people believe, is true (or likely true)?

So, theists believe at least one god exists, atheists do not believe that proposition.

The single best, most reliable method, ever devised for assessing truth from fantasy, is by using demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, and valid and sound logic to determine whether a belief is true or most likely true.

Please tell us, besides basing our beliefs on demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, and valid and sound logic, to determine if the belief in a god is warranted, what other method should we use?

Cognostic's picture
@Jo: You have done nothing

@Jo: You have done nothing but like. make inane assertions, refuse to look at facts. and express your unfounded juvenile opinions since you arrived on the site. You have been completely debunked every step of the way. Why not simply open your frigging eyes.

David Killens's picture
@Jo

@Jo

I prefer to attack and rip apart religion and leave alone those unfortunates who are victims of the biggest con game in history.

But when someone comes in here, asserts an untenable argument, then attack everything in sight, all support dissipates.

Tin-Man's picture
@Jo Re: "When you were a

@Jo Re: "When you were a Christian how did you think of and talk to those who were not like you?"

I know you directed this to Cog, but I felt a need to toss my two cents into the pot. My personal answer to that varies according to different time periods in my life. In general, however (regardless of the time period), I never really felt comfortable talking to ANYBODY about religion. Not even if they were of my same sect/denomination. And if they were anything outside of Christianity, I was especially ill at ease in any interactions with them. Why, you may ask? Because I was never confident/comfortable in any of my religious teachings. Never. Sadly, though, the threat of Satan and hell had been securely implanted into my brain at a very young age. So much so that it made it practically impossible for me to outwardly question Christianity and to NOT FEAR any other religions and/or belief systems. Therefore, for the most part, I avoided any type of religious discussions like the plague.

At the same time, however, I was always fascinated by people of different cultures/lifestyles. But my Christian indoctrination always inhibited my ability to fully explore my curiosity in regards to those different mindsets. I was always worried about "Going to hell" for consorting with all those "non-Christian" heathens who were "controlled by the evil Satan". That is why I am absolutely LOVING the fact I NOW feel totally free and serenely at ease in discussing any and all manner of religious and spiritual beliefs with people of various cultures. Whereas I once went out of my way to avoid such conversations, I actually get excited and happy now whenever I get the opportunity to have such discussions. It's wonderful.... *grin*...

Re: "There seems to be a lot of former Christians here, who now hold Christians in contempt."

Sure, there may be a few who do exactly that. And after hearing some of the histories of these individuals, and after seeing with my own eyes during my own lifetime the way Christians treat/have treated people I actually know, I honestly cannot fault those people for their animosity toward those of Christian faith. Thankfully, my religious indoctrinations were not as severe as others. Therefore, I really don't harbor any animosity toward those of religious faith. Granted, I may shake my head and consider them a bit silly at times. Or I may even feel a little sorry for them. But mad? Nah. Why would I be mad? I escaped! I'm free! I'm HAPPY! So I have no reason to hold in contempt those who have done nothing to me.

Plus, I am a firm believer that a person should be allowed to believe and worship in whatever manner they prefer. I spent seventeen years in the military helping to protect the rights of people to do exactly that.... As far as I am concerned, a person is free to believe (or NOT believe) in any god(s) they choose.... (As long as that person does not force his/her belief(s) on me or others, and as long as those beliefs do not cause or condone/incite harm to me or others because we may not share their belief.) Period. Pretty simple.

Re: "I don't understand how they can be that way towards those of us, who are what they used to be."

With that statement, it seems to me you are under the impression that atheists who were once Christians have somehow "betrayed" you and other Christians. Sorry, but this is not like a soldier from one country defecting to another country to fight against those who were once his comrades. Nope. Not even close. The point you seem to be missing after being here all of these months is that we as atheists are not treating YOU in any way. What we are criticizing and mocking are your bible, your god, and all the isanity that comes with it and spews from it. If YOU (by your own intentional actions) happen to get caught in the crossfire sometimes in your feeble and futile attempts to defend such nonsense, then maybe you should have considered that prior to entering an atheist forum. Either that, or maybe you should grow thicker skin. Better yet, how about you actually PAY ATTENTION and stop asking the same questions and making the same inane statements over and over and over. LEARN already. Oh, and I could not help but notice your only concern is rather biased toward the Christian faiths. Odd how you do not seem too concerned about those of Islamic, or Jewish, or other faiths that are now atheists. Hmmm... How very "Christian" of you.

Re: "Shouldn't someone who was blind, but now can see, have compassion on those who are still blind."

Absolutely! And I will be the first to admit that I sincerely feel a great deal of sorrow and pity toward those who are still mired in the insidious bogs of their god delusions. (You included, Jo.) At the same time, I am very much aware of how much those beliefs are extremely critical in allowing millions of people to effectively cope with their day-to-day lives. And if that is the only thing that keeps them functioning as productive members of society, then I certainly do not want to strip that from them.... (as long as they keep their shit to themselves.).

I keep my atheism to myself unless directly asked about it. (Nobody else's business.) I do not ask others about their religious beliefs. (None of my damn business.) I do not visit theist chat sites in an attempt to shove my (lack of) belief down the throats of others. (Very rude, in my opinion.) On the other hand, if a theist having doubts about his/her faith visits here in a genuine and sincere search for guidance, then I want to do my best to provide that person with the most straightforward and honest advice I can give. (I do actually care about my fellow Man.) HOWEVER.... Somebody arrives on this site under false pretenses attempting to insult my intelligence and the intelligence of other atheist members.... *mischievous snicker*.... IT'S PLAYTIME, BOYS AND GIRLS!.... *beaming smile*... I am a firm believer in you have to show respect to earn respect. And if a person wants to come here acting as though we are just a bunch of ignorant idiots by playing what he/she believes to be "clever" little word games, then that person is in for a huge surprise. Because I happen to LOVE playing clever little word games. Once had to do it for a living just to stay alive (literally). Now I do it for fun because it amuses me... *grin*...

(Edited slightly to simplify a couple of redundant sentences, because I was pretty well LIT when composing this post last night. Thankfully, no hangover this morning. It's a miracle! Praise the lord!)

Cognostic's picture
Jp: Re: "There seems to be a

Jp: Re: "There seems to be a lot of former Christians here, who now hold Christians in contempt."

NO. There are a lot of former Christians here who regard the inane bullshit Christians try to push of as facts with disdain. What don't you fucking get. We do not believe in your idiotic ideas of God or gods. You have NO EVIDENCE.
IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF YOUR MAGICAL UNIVERSE CREATING DEITY. POST IT AND STOP THE INANE BULLSHIT.

Cognostic's picture
Jo: "There seems to be a lot

Jo: "There seems to be a lot of former Christians here, who now hold Christians in contempt."

NO, it is your moronic line of reasoning, dishonesty and inane assertions that people hold in contempt. We have Christians that drop in here all the time with real questions that are gladly and respectfully responded to. You get neither gladness or respect because your posts do not deserve it.

RE: I don't understand how they can be that way towards those of us, who are what they used to be.

It's not our fault you take the complete and utter debunking of your inane bullshit personally. It's not our fault that you see every correction of your fallacious bullshit and worthless assertions as an attack on you. Your posts are in fact dishonest, shallow as all fuck, illogical, duplicitous, and at the very most, completely useless.

RE: Shouldn't someone who was blind, but now can see, have compassion on those who are still blind.

YOU HAVE GOTTEN ALL THE COMPASSION YOU DESERVE. NO ONE HAS KICKED YOU OFF THE SITE FOR YOUR BULLSHIT YET. Not only that, the mods will not kick you off the site for your bullshit as long as you do not violate the rules. We put up with it until you GO AWAY. (AND THAT IS A HUNDRED PERCENT DIFFERENT THAN ANY CHRISTIAN SITE THAT WANTS TO SHARE ITS LOVE WITH THE ATHEISTS. ALL YOU NEED DO TO GET TOSSED ON A CHRISTIAN SITE IS ASK A QUESTION AND DISAGREE WITH THE ANSWER. COMPASSION??? YOU HAVE HAD IT IN SPADES AND ARE TOO IGNORANT TO SEE IT.

Sheldon's picture
Jo "Shouldn't someone who

Jo "Shouldn't someone who was blind, but now can see, have compassion on those who are still blind."

I'd have compassion for you Jo, but your blindness is clearly deliberate. As I've shown in this thread, you dishonestly evade questions and points you know refute your claims and arguments presented to support your unevidenced beliefs.

Incidentally I see no compassion in your arrogant unevidenced claim to possess knowledge you can demonstrate no objective evidence for Jo.

Since like all theists you love analogies Jo, here's one for you...

You're in agony, and go to your doctor. She diagnosed kidney stones, and sends you for a scan to confirm the diagnosis. The scan shows that you need surgery to have them removed, as they're too large to pass or be broken up using ultra sound.

Your priest tells you he's prayed about it, and God has told him under no circumstances should you have the surgery, your religious friends confirm this through their "experience" during prayer.

Are you seriously telling us you'd go with unevidenced claims for esoteric truth, over objectively evidenced medical opinion?

I think we can all infer the answer Jo. Though either way your bias is manifest again....

You either base beliefs on objective evidence Jo, or you believe whatever you want. You're doing the latter, but like the other theists here only for one religious belief.

That is the very definition of closed minded Jo.

Cognostic's picture
Old Man: Simply amazing how

Old Man: Simply amazing how theists cling to their inane beliefs with facts and evidence staring at them. A deluded human mind is an amazing thing.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Cog

@ Cog

Tell me about it. I mean, just look at Tin Man...

Cognostic's picture
@Old man shouts ...: Yes

@Old man shouts ...: Yes Tin - Ye Ole Bucket-brain. Seriously speaking, we could simply replace his logic chip and he would make a lot more sense. But face it, he wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Cog

@ Cog

He's got a logic chip? *incredulous look* Seriously? Are you sure it isn't one of those model railway sound cards? Or even an 8 pin blank?

Cognostic's picture
@Old Man: Well, when I say

@Old Man: Well, when I say logic chip I am referring to the Model K invented by George Stibitz. I'm not actually sure if you could run a train set with it or not.

Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man and Cog Re: Logic

@Old Man and Cog Re: Logic chip

It's called an ABACUS, you two bumble brains! Mine just happens to be a customized miniature made small enough to fit in my skull.

Talyyn's picture
@Tin-Man

@Tin-Man

I wonder if it could be linked with a meat brain like mine, so that when i am... ahem...bowing head in shame...drunk, it could help me in not doing moronic things?

Cognostic's picture
@Talyyn: RE: Keep you from

@Talyyn: RE: Keep you from doing moronic things???
There is absolutely nothing in the evidence we have that would even come close to the idea that Tin Man's abacus could prevent you from doing moronic things. You might try putting a rock in your pocket? It might be as useless as Tin Man's abacus but at least you would have someone to talk to.

Tin-Man's picture
@Talyyn Re; "I wonder if it

@Talyyn Re; "I wonder if it could be linked with a meat brain like mine, so that when i am... ahem...bowing head in shame...drunk, it could help me in not doing moronic things?"

I wish I had some good news for you on that... *shaking head sadly*... But even IF there were a way to connect them, I doubt it would do much good in countering the effects of alcohol. Hell, if anything, it might even make matters WORSE! Because I can tell you from experience, if I drink enough, the alcohol seems to do some really strange things with those dang beads. Don't know if it loosens them up or causes them to get stuck, but either way, the damn things just seem to go haywire on their wires. I've lost count of the various types of structures I have climbed (or attempted to climb) after the over-consumption of adult beverages. It is a wonder I am still alive and in one piece today... *chuckle*...

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