Jo's dishonest pretence of debate.

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Sheldon's picture
Jo "The OP has not reference

Jo "The OP has not reference his claim. The fact is that about half of the SS were not even ethnic Germans. There was a Muslim division and a Indian Division."

Which is why in every post I specifically said the German SS, so yet another dishonest misrepresentation from you Jo. If you want to refute the accusations of dishonesty Jo, then telling more and more lies won't help. By the way would those Muslims in the SS be theists or atheists? Do take your time.

Jo "Do the facts matter?"

Not to you apparently.

Now how about the fact that a 1939 census showed that over 94% of Germans identified as christians? You do know what happened to most of the other 6% right? You know for instance that the 6 million Jews murdered by the Christian's in the German SS, were not of course christians, or Muslims?

Only I have not seen you acknowledge any of these FACTS, only tap dance around them with more and more dishonest evasion. Remember it was you Jo, who claimed Nazis couldn't be christians, care to retract that lie?

Sheldon's picture
Jo " I ask the OP for a

Jo " I ask the OP for a reference to his claim. He has never given one. "

"The SS loyalty oath was as follows: “I vow to you, Adolf Hitler, as Führer and chancellor of the German Reich, loyalty and bravery. I vow to you and to the leaders that you set for me, absolute allegiance until death. So help me God”.

The racial requirements for SS officers was even more stringent. During the 1930s officer candidates had to provide certified evidence of Aryan heritage, dating back to 1750s."

I'm guessing in a country that was 94% christian even someone as dishonest as Jo can see the futility of arguing this point, but then again he appears to be an habitual liar, and I'm dropping the euphemism of dishonest now? Maybe Jo thinks it was Ganesha, or Vishnu, or maybe he thinks it was the Jewish deity?

Jo " In fact, I addressed Nazi/Christianity at length in the above forum. The OP has missed the fact that if 6% were not Christians, then how could all of the SS have been Christians?"

Well fuck me, Jo really does think the German SS swore allegiance to another deity, which one(s) Jo? This is fucking hilarious.

Jo "Now you say, "All SS soldiers were required to swear an oath to Hitler before God."
“I know what he would say if I had done that."

I'd be forced to admit you'd finally shown some integrity Jo, sadly you have not said this, and thus you have not shown any integrity, again.

Jo Jo "The OP has missed the fact that if 6% were not Christians, then how could all of the SS have been Christians?"

Ill give you a clue Jo, in a population exceeding 70 million after annexing other surrounding countries, 11 million dead would be more than enough to account for all of that 6%. The 6% were the demographic largely targeted by the christian majority to be murdered in the death camps Jo, please tell me you're being ironic? You do know that Jews are not christians right? Hoe about the Nazinpersecution of homosexuals Jo, are you going to have the sheer afrontary to claim the bible doesnt specifically call for just this persecution?

"“Then there is the bible depicting a deity that performs and encourages its followers to commit, ethnic cleansing and genocide, and sex trafficking women and girls. And of course the bible, and even Jesus's endorsements of slavery?”

Jo "I have addressed the claim of racism in the Bible on numerous posts.
I have also directly addressed this type of claim at length. Please see post #5 in the forum Omnipotence and ALL-POWERFUL - difference?"

Not with any objectivity or integrity, so please offer a link Jo, as I think you're lying again.

"“Atheism has no dogma or doctrinal teachings, so beyond the lack of belief in a deity an atheist may believe or disbelieve literally anything. Thus what one one atheist does has no bearing on atheism.”

“Christianity has long established dogma of antisemitism over centuries, and that is the context under which the Holocaust was perpetrated in a central European country that was almost entirely Christian at the time and had been for centuries, in a continent that was itself majority christian for centuries.”

Jo "Please notice how he changes his reasoning between the two statements."

#1 What is the point of these statements?
#2 Is it a guilt by association fallacy?
#3 He presented Christianity as being monolithic and universal.
#4 How many thousands of Christian groups are there?
#5 What do all Christians have in common but some vague affinity for Christ. If that.

Please note that yet another lie is offered, without any explanation for the lie???? The reason for the different explanations is manifest in the facts offered, again this is breathtakingly dishonest Jo.

#1 They're self explanatory.
#2 No.
#3 Another lie, and I welcome anyone to search these forums for the number of times I have personally pointed out how fragmented and contradictory the vastly varying claims of christians are, and of course all without any objective evidence. However the fact remains European christianity exhibited virulent and violent antisemitism for centuries, and it was in this context the Holocaust occurred in a country of approx 70m people where 94% were Christian's. So stop lying and evading the facts Jo.
#4 All of them claiming to know that they know that this is an infallible message from an immutable deity, irony overload.
#5 Another unevidenced claim, they claim to be christians, and since by your own admission (see #4) they can't remotely agree, his no Scotsman fallacy aside they're all christians, by definition.

Jo "Why am I not addressing the OP directly?
Because he does not go by the rules, he so rigorously enforces on me."

Another lie, and again unabashed in being not just totally unevidenced, but devoid of any cogent explanation in pretence of justifying the lie.

Jo "He is generous with his judgments of my posts.
Yet repeatedly ignores misquoting me."

Liar, I have never knowingly misquoted you or anyone else, and I am happy for others to decide whether this typifies my behaviour here.

Jo "Please reference post #282 on the forum "A question for theist".
I asked him 4 times (now 5) to respond to this.
He has avoided addressing this, all the while inspiring a choir of condemnation to accuse me."

Correct, you have habitually lied, and your evasion is sickening, address the many months of that behaviour and I will crawl back through that thread to address your post, but rest assured I will be honest, unlike you. Once you address the dozens of lies you have posted. This is another example of evasion and a smokescreen Jo, pathetic.

From the same thread try these lies:

Jo "I never said it was a direct quote form you."

Jo Wed, 07/31/2019 - 04:15 (Reply to #35)#36

"The reference for #1 and #3 is that they both are from you."

oh dear Jo, not a good fucking start is it.

You never addressed that honestly Jo, quelle surprise.

Or this:

Jo "I asked you to explain what you mean by "science is demonstrable the best method we have for understanding reality."
I don't recall you ever answering that question. Isn't "reality" everything?"


This shameful wriggle was after you lied that I had claimed science can answer everything.

Now note the three lies in this post from Jo that he assigned to me:

The gloves are off now Jo, no more chances for you, enough of your lies and half truths. So lets try this one as well...

Jo "To settle this, why don't you answer the question.
#1 Can science answer all questions?
#2 Can science determine if God does or does not exist?

They are simple and straight forward questions and can be answered with a simple and straight forward answer.
In fact they could be answered with one word. I would answer them with a "no".

#1 I don't know, and nor do you, which makes you a liar again (see your last sentence).
#2 I have no idea what you mean by god, nor do you, you might as well ask if science can determine if unicorns exists. FYI science cannot determine the existence of any non existent things, like mermaids and unicorns Jo, so do take a moment to think about the category you just placed your deity in.

You are one of the most relentlessly dishonest apologists I have encountered Jo.

David Killens's picture


"To anyone who is interested in the facts, here is the evidence to show that I have not done what the OP has claimed."

What is the one of the OP's claims? I will paste it from the OP.

"You can pretend it' you have a problem with Jo, but do you really think we can't all see you're dishonestly evading questions you don't like."

I was one who gave you a chance, and in post #38 I tested you. Yes, it was a test.

"I will address them again with you if you can give me the reference to your claim of "instances of genocide, rape and murder contained in the Bible."
English Standard Version
Numbers 21:2–3
2 And Israel vowed a vow to the Lord and said, “If you will indeed give this people into my hand, then I will devote their cities to destruction.
3 And the Lord heeded the voice of Israel and gave over the Canaanites, and they devoted them and their cities to destruction. So the name of the place was called Hormah.
Here is an example where your god sanctioned mass murder.
Response please?"

To which your response in post #39 was .....

"@ David Killens
Please see my above response to Tallyyn.
Please see the previous verse in Numbers 21:1.
I have addressed this type of question before at length.
If you did not see it I will try and find it to repost."

Do you not see what happened? You were accused of dishonestly evading questions. I set up a VERY simple question, one I expected you to give a simple answer. That act would have absolved you in my eyes. But instead you, guess what?

Evaded. You did not answer, you referred me to another post.

p.s. I removed spaced lines to condense this post into a manageable and understandable response. None of the wording was altered.

Cognostic's picture
@Jo: One of your most

@Jo: One of your most idiotic rants to date. All you have sufficiently done is demonstrate to everyone the complete and utter inefficiency of your mind's ability to string together facts in an efficient manner to demonstrate a point.

Sheldon's picture
To expose yet another lie

To expose yet another lie from Jo, here's a quote from his last post...

Jo "Yet repeatedly ignores misquoting me.
Please reference post #282 on the forum "A question for theist"."

Now please note that firstly he uses the word repeatedly to lie that I misrepresent him, yet provides one example. I posted a quote in good faith, and yet rather than address his dishonesty in almost every post. He immediately and disingenuously accuses me of REPEATEDLY misrepresenting him.

The reason I haven't properly checked back to see if it was assigned in error, JUST THIS ONCE btw, is that he has refused to address any of his many lies and falsehoods. So many it's not necessary to repeat them now, but an example would be him claiming that science and logic indicated to him his deity existed, (I'm paraphrasing his post btw), yet when I pointed out there was no scientific evidence for any deity, he ignored it, and when I pointed out he had repeatedly and relentlessly based his arguments on known common logical fallacies such as argumentum ad ignorantiam and false dichotomy fallacies, he ignores this EVERY SINGLE TIME. He has yet to address them even once that I have seen.

Now how many times has he used the woeful and logically fallacious claim "you can't disprove a deity exists", and ignored that fallacy? And we have all seen this...

The Nazis and Hitler were being touted by him and other theists as an example of the dangers of atheism of course, just to provide some context.

No one has suggested all Christian's are dangerous or evil, yet he got his panties so bunched, he's determined to keep repeating the lie that its guilt by association to point out the fact that the vast majority of the tens of millions of Nazis had to be christians, in a country whose population was overwhelmingly christian at over 94%.

I ask again since all members of the SS swore an oath before God in order to join, how are the death camps and the resulting genocide being blamed on atheism?

Hitler claimed to a lifelong catholic, Himmler was a pagan who believed in multiple deities. Neither were atheists, and Jo has failed to show a shred of evidence for the claim beyond Hitler's antipathy towards the church. We've had Christian's on here who denounce all organised religions. Hitler claimed IN MEIN KAMPF to be "doing god's work, another fact he has failed to address, or ignored would perhaps be more accurate.

We all saw Jo use the No True Scotsman fallacy at the start of the discourse, then deny her used it, even after multiple posters including Nyarl... pointed it out to him.

His polemic and apologetics are dishonest, and he must at some level know this by know. Does he relent? Not a bit of it, he comes back and tells more lies, including the claim I have repeatedly misrepresented him.

Well Jo, I'm disinclined to justify any claims about you, as you're so dishonest, but beyond the one example you posted please show a dozen of these dishonest misrepresentations by me?

Number them please, with links. And if you can't and one post which may well have been an innoccent error on my part, then be prepared to be called a liar yet again.

Cognostic's picture
@Sheldon: Preaching to the

@Sheldon: Preaching to the Choir Sheldon. I gave up on responding to anything Jo had to say weeks ago. His posts are full of shit. He is not interested in an honest discussion. It's just that simple.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jo - Yes, Hitler always

Jo - Yes, Hitler always identified as a Christian.
Yes, 94%, or maybe 100% of the Nazi's identified as Christian.
But what does that have to do with me?

Well for starters, you told us there were no Christian Nazis (you said they were mutually exclusive). Are you retracting that now?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jo - I am trying to show that

Jo - I am trying to show that correlation does not equal causation. It is a Post Hoc, or Faulty Cause Fallacy.

Correlated attributes are not mutually exclusive. Mutually exclusive attributes are perfectly anticorrelated.

Cognostic's picture
@FFS - I wrote a half page

@FFS - I wrote a half page response to the insane bullshit Jo is saying and before pushing the "save" button I just erased it all because I asked myself WHAT THE FUCK AM I RESPONDING TO THE SAME FUCKING SHIT AGAIN FOR? ALL I WAS DOING IS REPEATING THE EXACT SAME STUFF I HAD ALREADY STATED. HE DID NOT GET IT THE FIRST TIME AND HE WILL NOT GET IT NOW. WHAT'S THE POINT?

David Killens's picture
I agree Cognostic, we are

I agree Cognostic, we are deep into the broken record territory. Unfortunately, Jo has doubled down and is now trying to be on the offensive. You are right, playing this game is a waste of time.

Simon Moon's picture
I agree Cognostic, we are

I agree Cognostic, we are deep into the broken record territory. Unfortunately, Jo has doubled down and is now trying to be on the offensive. You are right, playing this game is a waste of time.

While I agree with you about Jo, the same fallacious arguments post after post, I am not sure I agree with you that it is a waste of time.

It may be a waste of time with Jo, but it is possible there may be other theists lurking, that may get it. Not that they'll give up their theistic beliefs, but they will take note of Jo's dishonest (or dense) debate tactics, in order to improve their own.

I will continue to respond to Jo's idiotic posts.

Cognostic's picture
@Simon Moon: RE: "... but it

@Simon Moon: RE: "... but it is possible there may be other theists lurking" Full, agreement. I will amend my previous assertion. "I feel I am wasting my time. " All I am doing is repeating myself over and over and over. How many ways must we repeat "Atheism is a lack of belief in God." I too hope the lurkers can see into the idiocy of Jo's posts and walk away with at least a small shift in perspective.

Sheldon's picture
More indisputable evidence

More indisputable evidence that Jo is an incorrigibly dishonest liar, without a shred of integrity.

Shame on you Jo, and so much for your beliefs if this is how relentlessly mendacious you can be.

Sheldon's picture
Here is Jo's latest appalling

Here is Jo's latest appalling litany of repetitious lies...

Thou shalt not bear false witness Jo, so I think we are starting to suspect you're not even a christian, and are simply trolling.

Sheldon's picture
Cognostic's picture
Jo is back with the same ole

Jo is back with the same ole BS. He has not picked up a damn thing. Talking with Jo is like teaching a whale to walk on land. Just when you think you are making progress, the damn thing crawls back into the water and loses its' legs. FUCK!


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