just a discussion

96 posts / 0 new
Last post
rotiferuk's picture
1) I do not "believe" in

1) I do not "believe" in science. I accept it as being the best approach we have to understanding the natural world. Science works, otherwise we would not be having this conversation.

2) If a scientist holds a religious belief they are more likely to fall back to that position when they reach the limits of their knowledge. A scientist who was not religious would most likely just say "I do not know/ understand".

aeirihannah's picture
I do believe science holds

I do believe science holds some truth... it makes alot of sense to think this way but to form life decisions based off of it is not an approach I agree with because even scientists say (it's just a theory) science contradicts itself all the time but no one is like ( LIARS!) So that I'm confused about.

rotiferuk's picture
1) Form life decisions based

1) Form life decisions based off science? Where on earth did you get this ridiculous idea? Science is an approach for understanding the natural world. Nothing more, nothing less.

2) "As used in science, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena."


ThePragmatic's picture


"How can anyone believe in science without believing in religion when the people who were the first scientists were ROMAN CATHOLIC???? hmmm.... it all derived from the bible at first"

The Arabic world was the worlds centre for science (until Islam ruined that), before the Christians. If you were an atheist or had the wrong beliefs, you were killed or thrown i prison or fined, ostracized, etc.
If there were only religious people around, who else were going to do any scientific discoveries? The Church however saw to it that many who made discoveries were killed or thrown i prison or fined, ostracized, etc.
Science has made progress despite the Church.

CyberLN's picture
"how can anyone believe in

"how can anyone believe in science without believing in religion when the people who were the first scientists were ROMAN CATHOLIC???

Wow, how euro-centric is that!?

Pitar's picture
The Bible is a lot of things

"The Bible is a lot of things to a lot of people, but to Christians, especially, it is a source of inspiration and a guide to daily living.

To others, the Bible is a historical document and a source of controversy.

To others still, the Bible is a self-contradictory mish-mash of arcane rules and proscriptions, mostly relevant to long-dead cultures in far away places.

What is the truth in all of this?

The reality is that it is all true to an extent, and equally nonsensical at the same time. The Bible has meaning to all its readers, but it is important to consider that the meaning it has is informed by the prejudices the reader brings to it.

To really understand the Bible and what it intends to say to present generations, it is necessary to understand who wrote it and why, and the cultural context in which it was written. The story is an interesting one, in no small part because the story is so much messier than most of its advocates would have you to believe. And its very messiness is why it is a story rarely told in any completeness to Christian audiences.

The overriding theme of the Bible storylines is the theme of cultural conquest. Conquest by the Hebrews over their enemy neighbors, culturally by the Jews over the Israelites (used here to mean members of the ten "lost" tribes), the Christians over the Jews, the Catholics over the Gnostics, Marcionites, and other pre-Catholic factions, and on and on. In some cases, the conquest is recorded as a historical, often military event. In others, it merely is recorded as a change in content and context, an alteration of the storyline and outlook and worldview.

And the story of the editing and translation of the final form of the Bible into what today is regarded as holy scripture is a story not just of cultural conquest, but of political intrigues, and not just between competing bishops, but with secular political authority itself. It is as if the U.S. congress or president were to decide what constituted Christian doctrine and scripture, and everyone went along - at the peril of their lives - until no one even questioned the accuracy of the official viewpoint.

The effect of its origins as selected parts of whole bodies of scripture, written by at least a hundred and fifty different people in dozens of different places at different times, many centuries apart, and for different reasons, colors what its authors wrote. Yet that simple fact is widely ignored, both by people who naively follow what they read in it as the inerrant word of God, and by more liberal scholastic theologians, who seek to understand its historical context as well as a body of doctrinal scripture, which they often blindly follow, even though they know full well its messy origins."


aeirihannah's picture
Also if atheist don't believe

Also if atheist don't believe in all that jazz, why do you go by the calendar? ? When it was formulated by augustus Caesar who was roman catholic. And got the dates and stuff from the bible... the whole 7 days in a week came from the bible. so UHHHHH

rotiferuk's picture
The day and month names have

The day and month names have pagan origins so it cancels out :-}


aeirihannah's picture
Pagan is a belief system...

Pagan is a belief system... regardless of it not being Christian. If an atheist believes it it's hypothetical... because they don't believe in anything. So not nessicerily does it cancel.

rotiferuk's picture
1) Yes, paganism is a belief

1) Yes, paganism is a belief system. If I was not an atheist I would be a pagan. All that dancing naked in the moonlight.....

2} Why are you still banging on about atheists not believing anything? I have already explained, atheism is a position regarding the supernatural / supernatural deities. Did you miss that post?

3) I made a frivolous reply because IMHO it was all your comments deserved.

ThePragmatic's picture


"Also if atheist don't believe in all that jazz, why do you go by the calendar? ? When it was formulated by augustus Caesar who was roman catholic. And got the dates and stuff from the bible... the whole 7 days in a week came from the bible. so UHHHHH"

Are you suggesting Atheist should invent a new calendar and go by that? That wouldn't cause any problems would it?
Should we also invent a new language and only use that? Our languages are littered with expressions from our belief systems. Did the Greeks tear down all the temples and other building when they stopped believing in the gods of the Greek mythology? Why do you think? Just because I am an atheist, doesn't mean I want to remove all traditions, language, calendar, buildings, etc.

You're not a Christian, why do you go by the calendar?

Pitar's picture
I think you're taking bits

I think you're taking bits and pieces of some things you've read and assembling them as necessary to present yourself as an informed individual. That takes courage in this day and age when the archeological record of the period you propose to present with biblical defense testimony beckons you to look just a little bit harder at what you bring. Besides bringing your own prejudices to defend the biblical argument, which is normal for most people who choose to make such a defense, you do not present the entire work in context here. I doubt you've taken on the burden of proving to yourself the context of the bible relative to the archeological record. Do that and then come back here with your views. It's that very grounding in context that has created the path to atheism. The bible itself is the proof and logical source of atheism. Give it a good examination against the archeological record and then report back here.

aeirihannah's picture
Also the figment of day and

Also the figment of day and night that stuff was all fundamentally invented through the bible. the moral rights and wrongs... no that's not instinctive... it's instilled through laws given to us that were formulated by the government which was first established through the bible. Morality is not instictive... if so... moma birds wouldn't let their weak fall to their deaths... spiders wouldn't kill their spouses... wild cats wouldn't play with their food before horrifically tearing it to shreds... the difference is wild animals don't have the capacity to attain the type of knowledge that we are able to.

rotiferuk's picture
1) Governments formulate laws

1) Governments formulate laws (which set absolute limits), not morals. It is possible for people to live within the law yet have vastly different moral codes.

2) The bible is an evil book. I would not want to live near anyone who used it for moral guidance.

3) Morality is a result of evolution.

"Morality is an evolved repertoire of cognitive and emotional mechanisms with distinct biological underpinnings, as modified by experience acquired throughout the human lifespan."


ThePragmatic's picture


"Morality is not instictive"

Firstly: It's hard to find a more immoral book than the bible. That is not even worth debating.

Secondly: There is a lot of cruelty in nature, yes. Natural selection is very cruel process.
But, why do you think that almost all animals take care of and feed their offspring? Why not just let them die?
Why do you think so many animals have learned to live as packs, hunting, feeding, sleeping and defending as a group? Why do you think there are some animals that will die to protect their offspring? Did they read the Bible?
There are even multiple accounts where animals help other species, why would they do that?

aeirihannah's picture
This government was built off

This government was built off of religion (in god we trust it says even on money ) so... morals are limits to our lives... not killing someone is a moral I mean it's not to say we can't do it. If our bodies physically allow it then we can kill someone... but who is to say it's really wrong or right... we cannot live by our own morality because everyone has their own interpretation of right and wrong. If we don't have a specific thing telling us it is OVER ALL WRONG... people would be running wild with their own pictures of happiness. And some people are crazy truth be told. Not everyone has a sound mind. But if you are atheist how do you know what is sound when you don't base it off of anything?

rotiferuk's picture
1) The people who founded

1) The people who founded your country were Deists, which is why they left England in the first place.

2) It may say "in god we trust" on the money in your country. It does not in my country (England UK).

3) Laws and morals are different. Laws set absolute limits, which apply to everyone. Morality varies from person to person. If everyone had the same moral standards there would be no need for laws.

3) Yes, killing people is wrong, however, it still happens in your country, which is full of people who follow the teachings of the bible

4) I understand my actions have an impact on those around me.I know how I would like to be treated by other people. So I try and act in a socially acceptable manner. BTW, you are the one who needs a book to tell you how to act, unfortunately it was written over 2000 years ago, what was OK back then is probably not OK now.

aeirihannah's picture
But laws were formed through

But laws were formed through the commandments. Period . Also they wanted to explore religion without serving a king or queen who would stone them for it and get out of the corrupt churches of the king who took all their money in the churches they were tired of corruption. So they moved to America. And you don't understand that your mind alone wouldn't grasp any right concept of right and wrong without a basis. This baseis you unknowingly base your morality off of is a Christian basis. Wether you believe that or not. This concept of killing is wrong came from the bible. Because they used to sacrifice people to please others before Christianity came along and no one thought it was wrong. It wasn't until this book came along to which people formed this morality of these things being right and wrong. Our pure selves don't have the ability to make any of these conclusion because if that were the case, we wouldn't need teachers or disciplinarians to instill it into us.

rotiferuk's picture
1) No - http://www

1) No - http://www.historyoflaw.info/history-of-english-law.html

2) I fully understand why the founders of your country left England.

3) You are incorrect.

"Humans are social beings, and as such we have morals. Some theists say atheists have no reason to be moral since we don’t believe in a god to instruct or punish us. This claim seems rather disingenuous when one considers that most theists who say this wouldn’t become immoral deviants overnight if they suddenly stopped believing in a god.

Studies have shown our morals are a product of multiple factors. The Milgram experiment shows authority plays a major role. The Stanford prison experiment showed the same, but also displayed the role of social hierarchy. The “good or evil” puppet test for babies suggests we are all born with a basic sense of fairness, justice, and unfortunately, bigotry. Human morality is too complex to be explained by religion or lack of it.

Millions of atheists across the globe live moral lives every day. Some don’t. Neither do some believers. There are atheist charities and atheist criminals. There are religious charities and religious hate groups. Religious people and atheists can both behave morally or immorally because of—or wholly independent of—their religious beliefs. One doesn’t necessarily lead to the other. Studies have shown the basis of human morality is present even before we’re exposed to religion"


There is also this, which includes research studies.


Now it is your turn, please provide links to support your claims.

aeirihannah's picture
I never said atheist or

I never said atheist or thiest arent good people ik of good atheist I don't believe everyone is evil... but to which do you base your good and bad from??? THE earth in itself holds no such logic to which be Instilled. if so explain the conscious?

rotiferuk's picture
From the second link I

From the second link I provided.

"Morality is not the exclusive domain of Homo sapiens; there is significant cross-species evidence in the scientific literature that animals exhibit "pre-morality" or basic moral behaviors (i.e. those patterns of behavior that parallel central elements of human moral behavior). [See research studies]"

"Young children and infants demonstrate some aspects of moral cognition and behavior (which precede specific learning experiences and worldview development). [See research studies]"



"Elephants have some of the most elaborate group rituals of any animals. When a beloved member of an elephant troop dies, those left behind will mourn the lost individual by "burying" the body with leaves and grass, and keeping vigil over the body for a week. And just as humans visit the gravesites of their lost loved ones, elephants visit the bones of dead elephants for years to come."

"Those seemingly filthy creatures scampering in the sludge of subway stations or trashcans, rats have empathy for each other. In a famous 1958 experiment, hungry rats that were only fed if they pulled a lever to shock their littermates refused to do so, suggesting that the rodents have a sense of empathy and compassion for their fellows. Another study published in 2006 in the journal Science found that mice would grimace when their compatriots were in pain — but only if they knew the mouse personally."


ThePragmatic's picture


"This government was built off of religion"

Where in gods name did you learn your history?? (irony :)
I'm not an American and don't live in the US, but still know better!

Some collected quotes:

"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."
~ George Washington

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
- James Madison

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."
~ Thomas Jefferson

"Religions are all alike — founded upon fables and mythologies."
~ Thomas Jefferson."

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
~ Thomas Jefferson wrote, in a letter to John Adams (April 11, 1823)

"The Christian god is a three-headed monster, cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three-headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
~ Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

"It is from the bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine, and murder, for the belief in a cruel god makes a cruel man, and the bible is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind"
~ Thomas Paine (1737-1809)

"All national institutions of churches whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. … My own mind is my own church."
~ Thomas Paine 'The Age of Reason' (1794)

“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
~ Tripoli of Barbary. Art. 11. – Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.

"The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion".
~ Thomas Paine

"The number, the industry, and the morality of the Priesthood and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church and the State."
~ James Madison a.k.a. 'The Father of the Constitution of the United States of America'

“I can not conceive otherwise than that He, the Intimate Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it.”
~ Ben Franklin

“In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

“The Judeo-Christian religion is the most bloody religion that ever existed.” Adams’ treaty with Tripoli specified that the American government “is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
~ John Adams

“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.”
~ James Madison

“Of all the systems of religion that were ever invented, nothing is more … repugnant to reason … than this thing called Christianity.”
~ Thomas Paine

A near-contemporary, the Rev. Dr. Bird Wilson, “perused every line that (President George) Washington ever gave to the public and (did) not find one expression in which he pledges himself as a believer in Christianity. … He was a Deist and nothing more.” Wilson judged all of the first six presidents to be “infidels.”

Thomas Paine noted in “The rights of Man,” “Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all law-religions, or religions established by law.”

Nyarlathotep's picture
thetruth1120 - "Do you

thetruth1120 - "Do you believe in Darwins theory of evolution that we came from some other species of animals? If so, can you give me current proof of change In species?"

No I don't believe it. However it does have an excellent track record of making predictions, so I tentatively accept it until something better comes along. I see you are back to demanding proof again; that didn't take long.

aeirihannah's picture
As we're you... there is

As we're you... there is nothing wrong with asking for proof. I don't blame atheist or anyone for wanting answers. Nothing wrong with it.. I t just a curious mind. And call me weird but I like to poke at peoples brains just to see where exactly they are with everything and how well they can handle a counter argument

Nyarlathotep's picture
thetruth1120 - "there is

thetruth1120 - "there is nothing wrong with asking for proof"

if you can't ask prove the easterbunny isn't real, then perhaps you shouldn't ask for proofs on more complicated subjects...

aeirihannah's picture
No one said you can't ask for

No one said you can't ask for the proof the Easter bunny isn't real... I said it's an unreasonable and unrealistic comparison to a creator. Not that you can't ask for proof. So where did you get that from?

Travis Hedglin's picture
"do you not believe in

"do you not believe in ANYTHING?"

Oh, sure, I believe in things like gravity and quantum physics. I do not, however, believe in either Zeus or Yaweh.

"Is it just intelligent design?"

Is what intelligent design? Life, the universe, and specifically people? I don't think so. We might not know every detail, but whatever processes helped along life and the universe, we can tell an intelligent engineer it ain't.

"Is it because of a hard time with bible thumpers?"

Nope, not anymore than someone waving around Aesop's Fables as truth would give you a hard time.

"Is it from abuse?"


"what is the logical reason and proof of the non existence of God or anything related."

The null hypothesis. That asserted without either logic or reason, can be dismissed without reason.

"What is the proof of a non intelligent design?"

Bad, not so intelligent results, like such as those we see around and in ourselves.

"Any answers I'd love to have a conversation about this with actual people who believe in non belief..."

Calling nonbelief a belief is rather like calling not swimming a sport, or abstinence a sexual position, it is rather inane. As far as a conversation, I am going back to sleep, so have fun until I get back on.

aeirihannah's picture
Well may I just ask... why do

Well may I just ask... why do 99% of people make plans for tomorrow although they cannot see it? they put out the outfit they plan to wear. Or make reservations at places they may never see. but why?

rotiferuk's picture
There is a very high

There is a very high probability tomorrow will come. Obviously we cannot be absolutely sure of this, however, the chances are very high, so people look ahead and make plans. Life is for living, we instinctively understand this, so it is best to make the most of it while we can.

aeirihannah's picture
there is also a very high

there is also a very high probability that there is a higher being just the same... you don't plan for tomorrow instinctively... you plan because a day has always shown for you so you have a degree of faith it will do this for you the next day. Even though we all know our deaths are inevitable, we still don't think it will be tomorrow. By faith and faith alone. our institutions and instinct can only be responsible for so much. You can't apply it to everything which seems to be your case... faith can only apply to so much too.


Donating = Loving

Heart Icon

Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.

Or make a one-time donation in any amount.