A Message To Religious People

104 posts / 0 new
Last post
SBMontero's picture
Strong arguments??? Like
whatistruth1838.146's picture
But when I left, I then see
Stu. K.'s picture
What a fantastic reply, thank
Sky Pilot's picture
The God character of the Old
Jared Alesi's picture
Also, where the hell did they
SBMontero's picture
And yes, that's another very

And yes, that's another very good point https://youtu.be/-b5aW08ivHU

Sky Pilot's picture
That's a good question. In

That's a good question. In ancient times (as well as now) there were in fact bears in the Middle East.

Bear: Bible Animals - Resources for Ancient Biblical Studies
http://www.bible-history.com/links.php?cat=41&sub=818&cat_name=Bible+Ani...

Syrian brown bear - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_brown_bear

Wiki says that the bear is extinct in Israel and in Syria (I wonder why) but that it might still exist in Lebanon.

Don't forget the cypress forests of Lebanon.

Cedrus libani - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedrus_libani

Where do you think the Persian Emperor Xerxes got the wood to build his armada that invaded Greece in 480 B.C.? Do you think the Persians lugged those ships across the Middle East on their backs?

Stu. K.'s picture
I apologize, for my lack of
Sky Pilot's picture
Stu. K.,
Stu. K.'s picture
What if I wrote a couple of

What if I wrote a couple of Bible verses and said the Holy Ghost inspired me to? And I "couldn't be more sure of what I saw".

Sky Pilot's picture
All you have to do is write a

All you have to do is write a new Bible version and claim that you were inspired by the Holy Spirit as it says in 2 Peter 1:21. Get it published, start a new denomination, do a radio and tv campaign, bribe other preachers to push your new doctrine, and sell the story. People will believe it.

Stu. K.'s picture
The Holy Spirit just told me

The Holy Spirit just told me to write a verse in a book that God hates everybody and heaven is a lie to fool everybody just for fun. Why will you follow him now?

Sky Pilot's picture
Stu. K.,
Stu. K.'s picture
Did you just openly admit God

Did you just openly admit God misleads people? What the fuck.

whatistruth1838.146's picture
Stu. K.

Stu. K.

Thanks for your honest engagement! I think your humility in engagement helps me to be more humble as well!

Now lets take a look at your example.

God sends bears to kill some kids because they call a man bald
vs.
God loves everyone.

The answer is going to be in two main places "man" in the first statement and "love" in the second.

We'll go in reverse order.

1. Love
I have found a common fallacy that is popular in current times which is what I am dubbing the "Benevolent Father Fallacy". This is the fallacy that states that the only attribute of God is love and that the only action a loving being can take is acceptance toward all. I do not know you but I'm going to make an assumption that may or may not be true: I think you are a nice and loving person. I make this claim on the basis of your raising a brow against the God of the Bible just killing off some innocent kids. In spite of this, I would suspect that if you were around in the 1940's or 50's you would have agreed to the war on Hitler and possibly even joined up to fight. Though you are a nice person you would have applied or agreed to apply lethal force against those who were doing a horrible injustice. If a human who is imperfectly loving and imperfectly just can make such a decision which you and I would deem as right on the basis of their imperfect attributes then certainly God who is perfect in his attributes can also make a decision to administer lethal punishment to actions are are so evil that they warrant it.

This brings us to our second point:

2. Man
Was the actions of the children in the Old Testament so evil that it warranted death?
If you and I insult each other on this thread there is very little consequence. If you insult your friend to his face there is very little consequence. Leaving it at this, there does seem to be contradiction in Gods actions until you consider the following. Its not that a man was insulted but who that man was.

If you insult your friend to his face, there is very little consequence. If you insult your boss to their face, or a police officer, because of who they are and who they represent there would potentially rightfully be a consequence. In some cultures if you insulted a King of a country you would warrent the death penalty because of what the title of King represents. If John doe from Russia punched two people: one Billy a farmer from texas and the second The President of the US, we would both be upset that an american was hit but hitting the president would infuriate us more because the President represents America. This person would face heavier consequence. Now if imperfect man can utilize this logic then certainly a perfect being can as well.

In your example you stated that they simply made fun of a man; however, they didn't just make fun of any man. They made fun of an Old Testament Prophet Elisha. That was an EXTREMELY serious offense. While a king represents a country, a prophet in the OT era represented God Himself. And to insult this person was to level a charge against the Almighty Himself. Next is the joke itself. This article done by a graduate of Westminster Theological Seminary dives a bit deeper into it [https://carm.org/why-did-god-kill-42-lads-merely-saying-elisha-was-bald] But essentially this was not just a light hearted joke that was extremely disrespectful during a time when God applied lethal punishment to breakers of his law against a person who represented Him directly. An earthly king would not put up with such disrespect and therefore I think it logical that although God is loving that he is also just and at that instance did not put up with such an action against himself.

I agree that is a hard lesson but not an illogical one given the facts.

I look forward to your reply.

Stu. K.'s picture
Hello, and thank you for your
whatistruth1838.146's picture
Great reply. I am coming to
LogicFTW's picture
So let me get this strait..
whatistruth1838.146's picture
"None of which he left any
LogicFTW's picture
I apologize I cannot do a

I apologize I cannot do a full reply at this time. I will revisit when I can.

I am sure about no miracle evidence left behind. I looked at a bunch of various "God is real" websites and they all started to repeat themselves real fast. This was even before I was fully atheist. I went looking for evidence of god. Found none in any religion that did not require you to take a "big" leap of faith.

I certainly do not know everything, but I do know all the major religions are falling all over themselves trying to look for undeniable evidence their god is real, if their was real evidence of one of god's miracles or wrath's we would of heard about it by now, we would have heard about it 1000 times over. By the particular religion, and by the science community. It would be the biggest news story of all time. It would make trump coverage look miniscule in comparison.

Your rational about man <<<*1000^1000*1000!(factorial)<<< a timeless all powerful all good god. I agree with the premises but not your conclusion at all. It is an interesting thought exercise/argument, but one I will have to get back to sometime tomorrow.

jamiebgood1's picture
whatisthetruth,
whatistruth1838.146's picture
JamieB

JamieB

1. Free will equals being able to choose from at least one of two options.
-When someone is holding you at gunpoint you still have free will. Its not free in the sense of without consequence but it still is free in the sense that your mind is not being controled toward one outcome or the other where if you wanted to say no you couldn't. The free will given from scripture seems to suggest (according to my knowledge at this point) that you have at least the freedom to choose God or not. That indeed is free will regardless of the consequence.

Secondly, Paradise (which doesn't include virgins in scripture that may be Islam) is paradise beause God is there. Imagine you had a King and within the walls of his kingdom there was nothing but peace. But the second you stepped outside that kingdom there was killing and violence of every kind. The king says you can only stay in my kingdom if you want to be with me. You don't have to want to be with me but if you do not want me then you'll have to leave my kingdom. You say: alright I don't want you and I decide to leave. If he said "no you stay" that would be against your free will. But in respect of your decision after giving you ample time to do so he says ok then depart from me as you have willed it. Could you call the king evil because he respected your wishes? You can choose to reject God. But the issue is if you reject God and decide to be on your own you are deciding to be with out God... if God is goodness itself then outside of God is evil. If God is life then you have chosen to dwell in death. Essentially you are deciding to dwell outside the kingdom. What are you advocating for rather? It sounds like you're saying I want to not be with you king and be your enemy but live in your land? I want to hate you but benefit from who you are?

That's like saying I want to not be married to someone but enjoy the tax privileges
or I want to live in a country as its enemy and wishing it weren't there but benefit from it
or I don't want to be married to you but give me half of your house that you own and I don't own..

None of these scenarios are rational in an earthly sense how much more in a heavenly sense.

Lastly how does that make God evil? If I tell a guest in my home you can either respect me but if you steal from me or try to harm me or any of my other guests and you do not want to obey my rules (in essence you don't love but hate me) then get out of my house, how does this make me a bad person? You would do the same wouldn't you?

Your definition of free will is not the definition of what scripture defines as free will. I'm sorry I didn't clarify before I used the term. I should have.

jamiebgood1's picture
whatistruth,

whatistruth,
You may have me on the definition of free will, but the point I was attempting to make is that for most said people they would choose not to be shot in the head or go to the hell that your God created. Its just a really mean thing for an all loving god to do. Reminds me of we god asked Abraham to kill his son as a sacrifice to him. You say love god as your father would you kill your son for him. If my mom asked me to kill one of my children to show her I loved her I would never speak to her again! Yes that makes God evil in my view:)

whatistruth1838.146's picture
JamieB
jamiebgood1's picture
Ok I guess Ill explain it

Ok I guess Ill explain it this way because I don't care to re-look up all the verses that say god created evil and and the evil genocidal murders he perpetrated in the Bible. Honestly, compared to the amount of murders god not only commissioned but also did himself, satan was a lightweight. Free gift you say. For the normal kind liberal christian its probably pretty easy. go to church on Sunday and come preach on these forums. There are many types of christians and interpretations of the Bible. Some people murder others for god some deprived others of human rights and some waste their limited beautiful days on this earth focusing on a life that will never be. Its not free for these types of christians. maybe you are a liberal easy going christian and I fine with that. go on love god. But heres my choice: to be free from the constraints of religion.

whatistruth1838.146's picture
JamieB

JamieB

Thanks for your response!

I get how you would believe God to be evil because of your other points in the last thread and the one listed here. Lets say there was a murderer. John Doe

John Doe
1. Murdered Jane doe
2. Murdered Billy
3. Stole a car
4. Bought his mom a house.

I'm not saying to ignore 1-3 but I'm trying to understand how 4 makes him a bad person. The other three are something to talk about but 4 should be off the table as an evil action. That's my question. Of the things listed:

1. God being a murderer
2. God restricting human rights
3. etc
4. God providing a free gift to live in paradise

How does 4 make God bad alone? Again I'm not negating the other's but I'm trying to see why 4 specifically is bad. It can be colored bad because of 1-3 but it itself isn't bad so that's why I'm having an issue when someone says 4 is bad alone. Though I guess it seems like your going with the 4 is colored because of 1-3. that makes sense and we'd have to discuss now 1-3 but I just want to make clear that 4 alone is not itself evil. If it is please explain because that is where I'm confused.

jamiebgood1's picture
I hate to receive gifts. For
whatistruth1838.146's picture
Thank you for your reply,

Thank you for your reply,

That is fine if you do not like gifts. That is your preference and as you stated you have your reasons. However,

If a child came up to you with a lolipop and tried to give it to you as a gift, would you call them evil?

And also still how does number for make God evil?

We can state that it doesn't but numbers 1-3 do. I'm not saying there isn't accusation there for you to feel the way you do. I'm just hoping we can wipe this one off the table given the logic of it.

We'll work on the other part after this point is resolved because it is an important one.

Thank you for being honest by the way.

Stu. K.'s picture
If somebody murderes two
whatistruth1838.146's picture
Stu K.

Pages

Donating = Loving

Heart Icon

Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.

Or make a one-time donation in any amount.