Hey guys. This time I'm here to talk about "randomness" and "luck". No offense but Walter does have a good point. "Randomness" and "Chance" is not a way to describe certain situations. When something is random, it is considered "out of nowhere". Athiests who use that as a means for the origins of the universe is being ignorant. Randomness and Luck are terms for people who cannot predict the future or know what's happening. If you know it happened or is going to happen, then it's no longer random because you expect it. Applying that logic for the origins of the universe just as a excuse to disprove God is in of itself is ignorant because it only makes that person look like a stupid asshole. No offense, but I do agree with some of Walter's arguments, since he at least does have a point on when it comes to the "logic" and "rational thought" that this Atheist community claims it has. Keep in mind, I am only saying I agree with SOME of Walter's points. NOT ALL of them.
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The future can not be perfectly predicted, even in principle. Again; in the world we live: identical conditions produce different results. Randomness is built it at the lowest levels. It is simply a consequence of the postulates of quantum mechanics.
What objective evidence can you demonstrate that your deity is anymore real than any of the others? Until you can do this then it's fallacious to claim it created anything. Walter's gone, and if he offered any arguments I must have missed them, could give two examples and explain why you find them compelling?
He brings out the fact that Athiests go out of their way to ignore evidence for God's existence and just replace it with "luck" or "random chance". It seems awfully arrogant. And no, I am not trying to prove God exists. It seems like a lot of Atheist keep accusing me of being religious and force me to prove the existence of God. But even IF I give evidence, Atheists will just disregard it and say my sources are unreliable and just call me a "brainless theist".
So you keep saying, now demonstrate this evidence you keep claiming you have.
Michael,
If you can't defend your evidence, then maybe you should throw it out! Either that or find somebody who can defend the evidence. Why are you even here? This IS a debate forum.
Random events of the most peculiar nature are a part of everyday life! In a group of 200 million people, some very unlikely things are going to happen to some of those individuals. Somebody does win the lottery by sheer chance! You definitely have to dismiss the possibility of random chance before you can make use of some unusual event. It's Reasoning 101, not an excuse to give "God" the boot.
He brings out the fact that Athiests go out of their way to ignore evidence for God's existence and just replace it with "luck" or "random chance". It seems awfully arrogant. And no, I am not trying to prove God exists. It seems like a lot of Atheist keep accusing me of being religious and force me to prove the existence of God. But even IF I give evidence, Atheists will just disregard it and say my sources are unreliable and just call me a "brainless theist".
Michael, what would you say constitutes good, solid evidence?
I explained it with Sheldon. Please read my reply to understand that is my own "proof for God's existence"
I think you need to look the word proof up in a dictionary. As what you offered was a subjective claim, based on astonishing selection bias.
random
adjective
made, done, or happening without method or conscious decision.
That is not remotely what you have claimed, and luck is just a subjective opinion when random events turn into a "favourable" outcome.
Sorry if my reply doubled, I was having a hard time posting it. But like I said, there are times when someone is in peril and they bend down and pray mostly because they cannot do anything else, and something worked in their favor. Case in point: "What Stands in Storm" by Kim Cross. It's a true story based off of people who survived tornados and storms. I watched a live documentary on it, one of which was a real lady trapped in her house as a tornado comes near. She couldn't do anything but sit and hope she will be alright. She says she "bent down and prayed" and a miracle happened: She was alive. The tornado went STRAIGHT FOR HER and DESTROYED HER HOUSE but she LIVED. And again, this is a real life person on a real situation. If that's just "luck" then she got pretty damn lucky, having to survive a storm without any injuries. This is proof that miracles DO happen and Atheists like you who disregard it as "luck" seemingly does not understand the situation these people were in.
Michael, you said, “there are times when someone is in peril and they bend down and pray mostly because they cannot do anything else, and something worked in their favor.”
So, if I did the same, but prayed to Thor, and it worked in my favor, would that be evidence that Thor exists?
It depends on the person. But yet if all life is just "random events" and stupid shit like that, then I guess Atheists either are willfully ignorant or just don't care about the importance of other peoples' lives.
Your response does not answer my question, Michael.
So events are guided then and not random? So much for free will, I thought your deity couldn't interfere with free will? Why does he let so much suffering continue then, if he's going to save just one or two here and there but leave most of his pets die on their knees grovelling for his help?
The belief a few favourable results are evidence of the efficacy of prayer sounds wilfully ignorant to me. Look up selection bias, I still don't believe you're being serious tbh, as this is so obviously nonsense.
You're assuming that I am religious or a "theist" but yet my arguments have nothing to do with God other than using "luck" and "random chance" as a explanation for ones existence.
"You're assuming that I am religious or a "theist"
No assumption is necessary. You've declared yourself a theist in your profile.
"my arguments have nothing to do with God "
Other than declaring yourself a theist, ranting about atheism, insulting atheists as stupid and moronic, and making grandiose claims about souls and a afterlife you mean?
Do behave...
Michael,
All that is talked about are the success stories. If a spectacular "success" came with a million failures, just what does that prove? Out of a million people some very spectacular "successes" should be expected! It's the failures that tell the story, and failed prayers are quickly explained away and quickly forgotten--if they are passed on at all. Thus, a list of spectacularly "successful" prayers don't mean squat unless you have the whole, statistical picture of successes and failures. That's what atheists mean by random chance happenings. It is you who are willfully ignorant!
"The 1994 Palm Sunday tornado outbreak was the third notable US tornado outbreak to occur on Palm Sunday and the second to take place in the southeastern United States on that day. 40 people were killed and 491 were injured in the outbreak. In all, 29 tornadoes struck Texas, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, and North Carolina, causing $140 million in damage. The deadliest tornado of the outbreak was rated F4 on the Fujita scale; it was the deadliest tornado in the U.S. in 1994. The storm devastated the Goshen United Methodist Church near Piedmont, Alabama, collapsing the roof on the congregation during a Palm Sunday service and killing 20 people inside, including the Rev. Kelly Clem's 4-year-old daughter Hannah. Two other houses of worship were also destroyed mid-service."
There have been double blind trails to test the efficacy of intercessory prayer, and they have proved repeatedly it has no effect. You're simply using section bias, to claim favourable results as evidence whilst ignoring the unfavourable results.
Do you feel bad for these people who died? Do you ever think of the possibility that the idea of a loved one being forever gone sad? Do you ever think to yourself: "Maybe the idea of life being just a bunch of random events is SAD?!"
You're missing the point spectacularly. You claimed a favourable result was proof that prayers produced miracles, but ignored the results where it failed. You loudly and repeatedly claimed this was proof of a miracle.
It isn't, it's simply selection bias on your part, nothing more. This latest obfuscation is irrelevant to that point. What's more objective research has tested the efficacy of inteecessory prayer and every time the results show it has no effect. The favourable results are what you'd expect from random chance. That's to say the group being prayed for faired no better than those not being prayed for, and in one group where theists knew they being prayed for they faired worse. Most probably due to performance anxiety.
@Michael
Re: "Do you feel bad for these people who died? Do you ever think of the possibility that the idea of a loved one being forever gone sad? Do you ever think to yourself: "Maybe the idea of life being just a bunch of random events is SAD?!""
OF COURSE we feel bad for the people who died! ( Why do you think the 'no religions' and the atheists are the ones screaming loudly for whatever human mitigation needs to be done being done after every natural disaster while the faithful sit around wringing their hands about the will of god?! Because we care - deeply!) OF COURSE knowing our dead loved ones are gone forever saddens us! OF COURSE we wish there really was such thing as a soul and a omnibenevolent god and an afterlife, Michael! But there isn’t, and wishing there was won't make it so. If wishes were fishes we'd all live in the sea.
"The tornado went STRAIGHT FOR HER and DESTROYED HER HOUSE but she LIVED. And again, this is a real life person on a real situation. If that's just "luck" then she got pretty damn lucky, having to survive a storm without any injuries. This is proof that miracles DO happen and Atheists like you who disregard it as "luck" seemingly does not understand the situation these people were in."
Rubbish...why did your deity kill the 4 yer old daughter of a preacher then? Not to mention all the parishioners in the church?
" The storm devastated the Goshen United Methodist Church near Piedmont, Alabama, collapsing the roof on the congregation during a Palm Sunday service and killing 20 people inside, including the Rev. Kelly Clem's 4-year-old daughter Hannah."
Again, you are just assuming that I believe in God. I do not wish to answer that question. I do believe that yes, things exist for a reason. Accidents are simply things that were not meant to happen. In other words, "Things that happen by chance."
Michael,
In a big storm there is bound to be some survivors. We can estimate by experience how many survivors we might expect. Insurance rates are based on such statistical tables. In that there are a lot of religious people in the U.S., especially in small towns, it is hardly surprising that many of them would pray during that stressful moment--and some of those would likely be among the expected survivors. Those who died on their knees tell no tales! All you are ever going to hear are tales from survivors, however rare, and you are going to latch on to those stories that are meaningful to you--about Christian survivors on their knees.
Without a full, statistical study done scientifically, these stories prove nothing. It's called selection bias.
I've assumed nothing. Your belief in a deity is in the profile you completed.
This level of duplicity is pretty sad as well.
Michael "Again, you are just assuming that I believe in God."
Ahem....liar liar pants on fire.....
Wed, 04/18/2018 - 13:28
Michael
"I am using "prayer" as evidence that miracles can happen and it is probably my only real evidence for God's existence."
@Michael Re: "She says she "bent down and prayed" and a miracle happened: She was alive..... This is proof that miracles DO happen..."
Wow. That is fascinating. So, by that reasoning, perhaps you could explain something for me. Over the course of my life (both during my belief periods and after I escaped religion) I have been involved in countless life-threatening situations, but somehow managed to get through most of them totally uninjured or with just a few bumps and bruises. (Sure, a few were more serious, but I'm still here, nontheless.) Anyway, the thing is, I do not recall a single incident where I felt the urge to drop to my knees and pray for my safety. Hell, with most of them, things happened so fast I didn't have time to pray even if I had wanted to. Yet, here I am, typing this post and doing just fine. Soooooo...? *shrugging shoulders*
@Michael
And all the people who pray, but die anyway? What about them, Michael? What about the churches that have collapsed on top of the congregations, killing them in the very act of worship and prayer? What about all the people in war zones, praying to god to make it stop- are they all doing it wrong?
An atheist looks around the world and notes the millions of people who prayed hard and died anyway. A theist ignores the dead millions and concentrates on one Kim Cross.
I've noticed you complain a few times that we are assuming you believe in god, Michael. We're not assuming it- you keep stating it. You say people who've prayed hard enough to god are saved by god. You say miracles happen. You want to believe in a world of magic, miracles and a god who protects those who pray to it. The world seems empty and meaningless to you without these things. You've said so, over and over. Perhaps you call it or think of it as The Universe rather than God- a caring Universe that rewards the good and punishes the bad. It's still theism to us and that's why people keep calling you a theist- you've said you are, over and over.
If belief in the supernatural makes you happy, fine. If you don't call the supernatural force you believe in god because you're not a Creationist or Young Earther or even a Christian, that's fine, too. But asking us to affirm your belief in the supernatural just ain’t gonna happen, not on this forum. I'm sure there are forums out there that would affirm it. If I was you I'd join one of them and surround myself with like-minded people I can relate to. You'd be happier.
"He brings out the fact that Athiests go out of their way to ignore evidence for God's existence and just replace it with "luck" or "random chance". It seems awfully arrogant."
I think a good thing for you to do, is to focus on the word "evidence" next time this happens to you in conversation about gods existence. I think, more likely than not, your perception of the word "evidence" is either skewed or unrealistic. Which leads me to question your honesty in any posts on this site that you have so far put forth.
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