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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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"Many people who are identified as atheist would not describe themselves as believing there is/are no god/s."
I must misunderstand this statement, CyberLN. Your help here would be greatly appreciated!
Saying I don’t believe in your god is substantially different than saying I believe there are no gods.
That is correct. But if you said you believe there are gods, just not the one i believe in, are you still an atheist?
Does it really matter?
I don’t believe in any gods. I Also have no knowledge about their existence or lack there of. Call me whatever you like.
I guess it doesn't really matter, no. Was just trying to understand! I was told I have a silly definition of "atheist" so I was trying to correct my definition. As I have said from the beginning, I am interested here in personal viewpoints, not lumping everyone together.
" I didn't realize that some atheists believed in God but I was wrong."
Atheism
noun
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
It's axiomatically impossible for someone who believes in any deity to be an atheist.
"Let me ask you this as well, you appeal to logic and reason as well. Where do you think the ability to think rationally and argue logically come from? How do we as human beings have the ability to do that?"
Our evolved brains.
In a subjective moral system the majority of like minded people create laws to enforce their ideals. Laws are changed as the will changes. They are by no means perfect but it's a template for judging what should be allowed.
@Neel Skelton: What if we swing back as a culture to child sacrifice
Child sacrifice is a religious practice. Abraham is a prime example. The Catholic church sacrifices children to the lusts of its priests.
I'm not just an atheist. I'm anti-theist, anti-religion. I see religion as an insult to human dignity and potential, and as the most harmful force in human society. Steven Weinberg said, "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion."
Once a religion has infected a society, it can become such a powerful force that it overrides the innate sense of empathy and decency that we refine through our experiences in our families and society. Then you get pogroms, holocausts, persecution, inquisitions, St. Bartholomew's Day Massacres...
Concerning the recent school shooting, do you think the shooter will be forgiven by Jesus? Do you think he will be rewarded in heaven alongside his victims? I have a real problem with that notion, and with the idea that god will make everything right in the end. People need to make everything right. It's our task. I believe in the power of people in the here and now.
Instead of sending "thoughts and prayers," politicians and society should be looking at better ways to prevent people like that child with a gun from turning into monsters.
Algebe...
On your first points,I would ask you to read my thoughts about objective moral standards in the post above. Just because Christians have done horrible things over the years, and they have, doesn't prove that there is no objective morality.
In regards to the recent shooting, I don't know if the shooter will be forgiven by Jesus. That depends on whether or not he repents of his sin and places his faith in Christ. If he does, then yes, he will be forgiven. That type of grace is foreign to us as human beings, but it is the kind of grace that God shows to us in Christ.
On your last statement, I think that prayers have power in these situations, obviously. But I think it is a false dichotomy to say that it is either prayers or policies. I agree with you wholeheartedly that something needs to be done in order to prevent horrible things like that happening in the future.
Quick question for you: have you ever violated your own moral standard? If so, what are the consequences and how do you justify that? Why do people violate their own moral standards in general?
And on the shooter, what do you think makes a person do something like that?
@Neel Skelton: Just because Christians have done horrible things over the years, and they have, doesn't prove that there is no objective morality.
So Christians, the people who presumably believe most strongly in this god-given "objective morality", can still do these horrible things, and yet you question whether atheists can have morality. Your supposedly objective morality seems to change over the centuries. Different religious sects have different versions of it. It all seems pretty subjective to me, but because it is backed by authority, fear, and violence, people are unwilling to question it. Do you not see how dangerous that is?
Yes, I've violated my own moral code many times. I'm human. When I do I'm tortured by my conscience and driven to make amends. Sometimes I even try to rationalize and justify my failures. Don't you? The point is that my conscience, refined by experience in my family and society, tells me that I've done something wrong.
false dichotomy to say that it is either prayers or policies.
Unfortunately, no. "Thoughts and prayers" is just a meaningless cliche used to excuse inaction. The politicians who say it should get Oscars for their brilliant impersonation of sincerity.
As any atheist will tell you, nothing fails like prayer. Have you ever had a prayer answered? Do you really think the supreme ruler of the universe will suspend the laws of physics to fix your problem?
@ Algebe
"Instead of sending "thoughts and prayers," politicians and society should be looking at better ways to prevent people like that child with a gun from turning into monsters"
?wheres that damn 10,000 likes button?
I am an atheist. What is my worldview? Well...
I am a strong believer in verifiable fact, the scientific method, and science consensus. I highly value logic, solid reasoning and careful examination and thought.
I try to overcome and/or suppress emotional thinking, I do not believe in luck, or superstition, or karma. I do not believe in cosmic justice or any other sort of grand justice. Only the justice we humans try to make for ourselves. I do not believe that we have souls or any other central core self.
I believe there is no purpose of life, but fortunately, that we do have the ability to decide for ourselves what our own lives purpose is, and I chose to be happy and satisfied on a very fulfilling level. I feel I am one of the happiest and satisfied person I know, and most people that know me well would describe me the same.
The more I read and learn about major religions and gods, debate with and know theist, the more confident and convinced I get that there is no god of any kind. So confident at this point I would bet everything, my life and eternity on it. I am as confident in that there is no god as depicted by all major religions I know of, as I am that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow morning.
It seems Neel is bent on using "objective morality" to foster prejudice against muslims with the chistianity is right and everyone else is wrong argument. This is the christian method. The fact is that christian morality changes with the wind and always has. It has never been objective. Just take the differences in the christian sects. Pentecostals don't believe in makeup and consider it a sin, yet most of the other christian sects don't think it is a sin. That is just a minor difference. All morality is subjective and always has been.
BTW to the forum members, I think Neel is just setting up an argument to say that atheists are immoral with his "christian objective morality" argument. We have seen this before. It is a precursor to proselytizing!
I never intended on going down the objective morality road, that is simply where the conversation took us. I would be glad to change gears to learn more. I am not sure how I am trying to foster prejudice against Muslims, however. You'll have to help me with that claim.
God is the objective standard for morality for Christians. He gives us our objective standards in the Bible and whether or not we obey them or believe them does not change that they are the standard. It seems as if this point is being missed on this forum. If Christians do immoral things, that does not mean the objective standards of morality have changed or are wrong.
I keep asking, do any of you live up to your own standards of morality? If you think it's immoral to lie, then why do you lie? If you lie, does that make the standard wrong or does it make you wrong? And why do we not live up to our standards of morality in the first place?
I am not setting up any such argument to say atheists are immoral. Well, actually I guess I am. But not in such a way as to say Christians are not. Because Christians are immoral as well - all human beings are. None of us consistently conform to divine or personal standards of morality. We are all immoral.
But if you don't agree with objective morality, then you have no ground to stand on to say that another person is immoral. What makes you right and them wrong if it depends on personal opinion?
Notice the switch-a-roo:
If you don't think there are OBJECTIVE MORALS, then you have no OBJECTIVE MORAL ground to say that another personal is immoral.
Can you elaborate on this point? Maybe by responding to the original, unedited post this time. I'll rephrase...
How can you say another person is immoral if there is no objective morality?
By opening your mouth and flapping your gums?
Morality is completely subjective and has evolved over time, all over the globe. It has clearly changed within Christianity between the time of the Old Testament and the present day church. Even in the last few decades, church views have changed on such things as rape inside of marriage, divorce and re-marriage after divorce, women speaking/leading in church, etc. All of these beliefs are (supposedly) based on scripture, yet the interpretation of scripture has changed over time. Not surprisingly, it has followed in the direction of the changing moral leanings of society as a whole.
I get that it SEEMS like Christians live by a morality that is created by God, but Christianity contains many moral principles that aren't unique. Lying, killing, stealing, adultery, etc. has been declared immoral by many different religions and communities throughout history. Kindness, generosity and forgiveness have also been lauded by many. Have all of these separate communities shared these moral principles because God dictated them to each individual group? No. These are principles that have aided us in our evolution and survival and have become deeply ingrained in us as individuals, our family structures, communities, governments, etc.
It's hard for me to believe that most Christians obey Christianity's moral principles because they are dictated by God. In fact, it would concern me if that was truly the reason. In the moment of decision, you don't avoid murdering people because God tells you not to. You avoid it because it would hurt you internally, because it would hurt your community or because your community would turn on you and leave you ostracized.
Morality seems to be completely subjective, and I don't see any problem with that. Just because it's not objectively immoral for you to beat my mother in front of me, doesn't mean that I'm not going to stop you from doing it. It's our gut and (sometimes) reason that tells us what is "right" and "wrong" (though I don't especially like those terms). There are a laundry list of things that used to be viewed as moral that are now viewed as morally abhorrent. Often these shifts happen because bold people stand up for what they declare is right, even when it is counter to the current culture. As we have evolved mentally and socially, so have our moral standards. We as individuals get to work out for ourselves what our values are and what we stand for.
Whether something is objective or subjective has no bearing on whether you can label a person a certain way. In each case, you should qualify your answer. e.g. you can say when someone has broken a law of the land, that was defined by the people of the land.
In the Abrahamic religions, you actually had "god" tell Abraham to kill his child...and this is supposed to be objectively moral. A Christian cannot say that they would refuse to kill a child if god told them to do it.
@ Neel and for everyone else
I knew it! Neel wants to say that his "god" gives chistians morality and that that "morality" never changes, yet through the years and with the different sects and christians divisions morality is different. And Neel just admitted that he is building an argument that atheists are immoral. "I am not setting up any such argument to say atheists are immoral. Well, actually I guess I am."
This is the basis for christian prejudice. It has been the justification for every crime that they commit and will commit. The "We are moral, and you are not" excuse. This has caused genocide mass murder and so much more. Lately, it has been the justification for both christian and muslim to kill each other.
Take this little tidbit by Neel "But if you don't agree with objective morality, then you have no ground to stand on to say that another person is immoral." Basically, this is stating that if you don't obey my god you are immoral.
The fact is there are levels of morality and ALL are subjective. A single person decides what he/she believes to be moral. Society dictates morality at large. A general consensus decides murder is immoral and it is generally accepted. No god has ever dictated morals. Now there have been people claiming that a god dictated morals basically just using the authority of a mythical god to further their ideals, but no god has ever dictated one wit of morality.
mykcob4,
You have twisted my words my friend. I said, "I am not setting up any such argument to say atheists are immoral. Well, actually I guess I am. But not in such a way as to say Christians are not. Because Christians are immoral as well - all human beings are. None of us consistently conform to divine or personal standards of morality. We are all immoral."
I say right there, Christians are immoral. Atheists are too. Christians defy moral standards laid out by God and atheists defy their own personal moral standards or the standards set out by society. I said very plainly that Christians, as well as atheists, as well as every person on the planet at some point violates personal or divine moral standards. In that way we are all immoral.
It is not a matter of "I am moral, you are not". It is a matter of who sets the standards, not who violates them and who doesn't, because we all do.
"If you don't agree with objective morality, then you have no ground to stand on to say that another person is immoral." I stand by that statement. What makes you right and them wrong if it depends on personal opinion? Again this is a question of moral standards, not immorality.
I am not twisting your words, Neel. I used YOUR fucking quotes. I posted those quotes. How disingenuous of you to claim so. But oh so typical.
The problem is that YOU and all christians state that morality comes from a god when in fact it comes from humans claiming a god and using the authority of their own myth to impose what they want on others. That by definition is IMMORAL.
The standard of morality changes and is subjective. Atheists by and large are more moral than any demographic in human history. Using the benchmark of criminality christians are by far the most immoral demographic worldwide, and historically the acts of christians in the name of their god are extremely immoral!
Morality IS an opinion. It is both a consensus and an individual choice. It is subjective! If we use christianity to determine if morality is objective or subjective then we must conclude by historical record that it is subjective as what was once immoral has been accepted as moral and what was once moral has become immoral. In the catholic church alone there is a huge conference to decide the morality of things as it is with every religious group, convention, sect. That in itself is the very definition of subjective. There is no and never was a christian morality that is or was objective because it has changed over time. There is no one single authority on morality and never was. Are the kind of christian that you profess to be more moral than a christian from the Westboro Baptist Church, or the Latter Day Saints, or the Jehovah Witnesses, or the Amish? You all have very different ideas of what is moral and ALL claim that the "christian" god has dictated morality.
"God is the objective standard for morality for Christians. He gives us our objective standards in the Bible"
So do you think it is objectively moral to take unruly children to the edge of town and stone them to death, as the bible insists? Do you think it is immoral to eat shellfish, or wear clothes made from blended fabrics? Do you think it was objectively moral for your deity to torture king David's new born baby to death as the bible claims?
Hey guys...
I’ve gotten some great response in private messages, so I am going to continue there with discussion so I can stay a little more on topic for my paper.
I really appreciate all of you responding and appreciate even more those of you who did so civilly.
If you wish to keep talking please private message me! there’s just way to much to keep up with here and a lot of rabbit trails.
Thanks again for your help! Much appreciated.
Well, now we have it. A drive-by or a runaway. "I am going to private message..." TO HIDE FROM PEOPLE THE DISAGREE WITH ME! THERE I CAN PICK AND CHOOSE WHO I TALK TO!
I doubt that you are writing a paper. I believe that you may be attending an "apologists" class but your assignment wasn't to do research and write a paper. It was to engage atheists on a forum and practice LYING and spinning...in other words practice becoming an apologist!
No Credible university would have an "apologist" class not for any credits anyway. they might address "apologists" in ethics classes but that would be to point out that apologists are unethical!
One thing that makes me KNOW that your intentions were and are unscrupulous is that any professor with ANY fucking credibility at all would have a very specific assignment.
For example.
"Your assignment is to research (don't use the internet) and find an instance where an apologist spun the narrative to negate the facts on an issue. You can pick any issue you want but it may only be ONE issue."
You came here with NOTHING specific in mind! That smacks of a youth minister sending out his minions to do as much damage as possible. Christians like to harass atheists. That seems to be their goal in life. You are no different. I have NEVER met an honest christian, probably never will. You are no different.
You complain that I "twisted your words yet I quoted YOU directly. Funny isn't it. You set out to be an apologist, someone that twist the truth to fit a false narrative and got bent out of shape because the REAL TRUTH WAS USED AGAINST YOU...YOUR OWN FUCKING WORDS!
It was always going to be like a Monty Python sketch, "Ataaaaack! Run awaaaaaay!
He might have shared what he claims to have learned at least, for the edification of us poor atheistic dullards. I feel cheap and used, again...has anyone seen Wheezy post since Neel has been here?
When Neel Skelton got caught strawmanning, or misrepresenting/misinterpreting peoples statements (several times) he had/has the decency to retract his problematic statements; which I found kind of refreshing. He definitely isn't Breezy.
Guilty as charged
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