I wanted to invite you all to realize the utter seriousness of the nihilist position. Without any objective standards, the self is completely free to create its own moral standards. When I was an atheist, I also used drugs and had an extremely dangerous socialist lifestyle. I was a nihilist who thought it was ok to drive stoned and sell LSD. This lifestyle almost killed me as I started doing heroin, believing that it was ok to abuse my body that way.
Keeping my testimony in mind, my argument is as follows:
1. The presumption of morality follows from its utter seriousness and from an intuitive knowledge of morality. People assume that there is an objective moral standard when they reason about morality. This is wisdom. If people do not accept some sort of moral standard, they will die. The value of human life is always presupposed in this way. This is an act of faith, to presuppose the value of human life. It is a type of metaphysical reasoning about the end and nature of human life.
2. Presupposing the value of human life requires some sort of metaphysical underpinning. What makes human life valuable, more valuable than molecules of carbon? THIS MUST BE SOUGHT OUT IF PEOPLE ARE TO REMAIN INTELLECTUALLY HONEST.
If we realize that we presuppose the value of human life when we talk about ethics, the task of learning has to be recovering what is the nature of that presupposition. Most cultures and societies have believed that life is sacred because it is made that way by God. As soon as this point is reached, we realize that once we presuppose the value of life we should inquire of that and try to make sense of it. What in our thinking is most important for us to hold on to, our beliefs about atheism or our value we put on human life. Nihilism naturally flows out of the atheist worldview. We must seek to understand why we value life and we we hold to a standard of moral even as our intellectual understanding denies this.
Atheism entails nihilism. If we are consistent in our philosophy, we must make it a first priority in our thinking to try to understand how we can intuitively perceive a system of objective morality that is in conflict with our thinking. If we fail to do this we will live in cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonest.
What we do in the end with our lives will remain to presuppose objective morality, even if we cannot defend it. This is wisdom, even for the most staunch atheist (I don't want any of you to go through what I did). Please, don't stop presupposing objective morality, I don't want any of you to die. But you are being philosophically inconsistent when you do.
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Re: OP
Hmmmm.... Let's seeeee.....
Atheism - Lack of belief in any god(s)
Nihilism - Life is meaningless
Call me crazy, but I am fairly confident those two things are distinctly different concepts that are totally independent of each other. But - hey - I've been wrong before... *shrugging shoulders*... Still, if you were a nihilist and were unable to live your life in a safe, productive, and personally fulfilling manner, I admit I am a bit confused as to what (if anything) that has to do with my life as an atheist. Fact is, my life and general mental well-being are FAR BETTER now than they ever were while I was still psychologically bound to my religious indoctrination. And while I am genuinely sorry for you that you seem to have gone through such a horrible period in your own life, coming here and trying to tell us atheists how wrong we are is probably not the best way to promote whatever brand of religious dogma you are trying to sell. Just sayin'...
Re: "Without any objective standards, the self is completely free to create its own moral standards."
First of all, of WHAT objective standards do you speak? No doubt others here will be curious to know as well. (As you will likely find out in due time as they read your post... *chuckle*...) And, yes, just so you know, I DO happen to have my OWN personal codes of morals and ethics. They have been developed over a lifetime of trial and error, and were molded and shaped by a number of influences that include family, friends, social circumstances, and applicable laws of the land. Sooooo.... What's your point?
Oh, by the way, welcome to the AR, Joseph... *Cheshire Cat grin*...
Atheism entails nihilism. Without a belief in God, it is impossible to have a standard of objective morality. For an atheist, there is no way to objectively define why killing children is wrong. How is killing children from the standpoint of science different from killing a cow? There is no way to prove an objective system of morality from the standpoint of atheism.
Theistic morality is entirely subjective, and basing morality on subjective criteria does not represent nihilism. I suggest you buy a dictionary.
Are you saying killing babies is immoral? That would make the christian deity you claim to believe an evil immoral monster, as in the bible it kills babies deliberately and indiscriminately, and encourage humans to do the same. So you have just defeated your own facile argument.
What has that to do with atheism? Also can you explain if killing children is immoral why your deity murdered so many children in the bible? Even torturing a newborn baby to death too punish it's parents for conceiving it in an adulterous affair.
Or theism, but please do list ten objectively moral actions, with some objective evidence for the claim of course.
@Joseph
"Atheism entails nihilism."
I am a staunch atheist, yet my attitude is contrary to nihilism. Life is beautiful, people are wonderful, there are more joys in this world than can be absorbed in a lifetime.
Thus your statement is invalid.
And without any doubt, I can have other other atheists in this site also agree on my statement.
"How is killing children from the standpoint of science different from killing a cow?"
There is no difference because science is not a religion or a position, just a process. But I take personal comfort and a bit of arrogant glee knowing that objective morality is responsible for the deliberate murder of millions of children. That is a sad chapter in humanity, but I know who the child murders are.
I can't tell you how thrilled I am when an apologist comes to this atheist forum to tell me what I do or do not believe AND has the arrogance to claim some kind of 'truth" AND that a philosophical position which disagrees with his is 'less than"/wrong
I can't speak for others, because atheism is not an homogeneous position.
MY atheism does NOT infer nihilism, nor anarchy, communism, or any other political or philosophical position,. But, I've put the cart before the horse: If, as an atheist I'm also a nihilist. Yes, that means the person believes life is meaningless. So what?
Nihilism does NOT infer a person has no morality or is incapable of following laws in society. Perhaps spend some time studying some of the greek philosophies, such as stoicism and epicureanism.
Judaeo-Christianity did not invent morality, nor is it the only viable source of ethics or morality,
I have yet to find a a valid form of objective morality . Claims of an objective morality tend to come from arrogant theists who claim their morality is objective and true because it is god given. However, they are unable to prove their god exists---and that is why I disbelieve. MY disbelief of things which cannot be proved INFERS/ENTAILS NO OTHER BELIEFS.
Morality is a human invention ,and can vary enormously between different cultures. Christians often become especially exercised when they discover another culture which doesn't share their notion of sexual morality.
Just to be very clear. I could not care less about your personal superstitions .Unless you get in my face and start proselytising .Then I can become a bit testy. .That includes coming to an atheist forum and spewing your superstitions and philosophical ignorance all over innocent atheists.
I won't say anything more to you on this matter ,lest I say something very unkind . I assure you the above is me playing nice.
@Joseph: "Atheism entails nihilism. " You have been told over and over that the two things are different. Atheism is a position on one thing and one thing only. Belief in God. Atheists do not believe in God or gods. Anyone who does not believe in God or gods is an atheist by definition. If a Nihilist does not believe in God or gods then by definition he is also Atheist. He is a Nihilist (World View) who does not believe in God. (Atheist - a position on the idea that God exists. Atheists are people who do not believe in God or gods.) THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO ATHEISM THAN THAT. Atheists are not NIHILISTS. Your choice to be a nihilist had nothing to do with ATHEISM.
Your shitty selfish amoral attitude was your fault entirely, and nothing to do with you not believing in superstitious fantasies.
Also please do take a moment to consider how fucking arrogantly stupid, and incredibly insulting your asinine claim is to a forum of atheists. Or if like so many religious apologists who espouse this grandiloquent self aggrandising bullshit, that level of self awareness escapes you, try considering how moronic and pointless it is to appeal to the morality of a demographic you are claiming are incapable of morality.
Here's a newsflash for you champ, death is the price of admission for this ride, and it makes no fucking difference if you're a scumbag paedophile priest or Mahatma fucking Gandhi, you're going to die.
No it doesn't, nor does any presupposition by definition, what a truly imbecilic claim.
Argumentum ad populum fallacy, so who fucking cares, people once believed the world was flat, and the earth was the centre of the universe, did that make those beliefs valid? Besides I don't believe human life is sacred, I just don't want to live in any society that doesn't recognise the inherent value of a single human life, for fairly obvious reasons I'd have thought. None of which requires any belief in archaic superstitious mumbo jumbo.
Firstly there is no such thing as "the atheist worldview" only an atheistic world view, or in other words a worldview that encompasses atheism, so you don't even seem to know what atheism means apparently, that's not a very good start. Your claim of course is utter nonsense, as there is mountains of empirical research indicating that atheists are at least as moral as theists, and recognising there is zero evidence that human life is singled out among all living things as having some overarching superstitious purpose, this does not make my life meaningless though, far from it, and only an arrogant moron would even try and make such an asinine claim.
Now lets cover some basics since all you have done is make a raft of unevidenced claims:
1. What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity?
2. Assuming you can do this, and you'd be the first religious apologist who can, how do you know that claims for moral precepts, supposedly from this deity, are in fact objectively moral? Please don't waste our time with facile unevidenced tautologies here, like "god is perfectly moral, therefore everything you assign to that deity must be objectively moral."
3. If you are able to recognise something as objectively moral why do you need a deity anyway? If not, how can you possibly claim to know that morals assigned to that deity are in fact objectively moral? So it's religious apologists who when making this absurd claim, that are in fact creating cognitive dissonance.
Sheldon, you wrote, “Here's a newsflash for you champ, death is the price of admission for this ride, and it makes no fucking difference if you're a scumbag paedophile priest or Mahatma fucking Gandhi, you're going to die.”
Of all the delightful, wise, witty things you have written here at AR, this is by far my favorite!
@Holy Hell: Sheldon sounds more like me every day!! Be afraid! Be very Afraid!
Joseph,
What you wrote is in quotes, my response is below each quote.
“Without any objective standards, the self is completely free to create its own moral standards.”
Yep.
“When I was an atheist, I also used drugs and had an extremely dangerous socialist lifestyle.”
Are you suggesting that everyone who is identified as atheist lives this way?
“I was a nihilist who thought it was ok to drive stoned and sell LSD. This lifestyle almost killed me as I started doing heroin, believing that it was ok to abuse my body that way.”
I don’t know if you were a nihilist but you sure acted like a dick and we’re likely pretty stupid.
“People assume that there is an objective moral standard when they reason about morality.”
Which people assume this?
“This is wisdom.”
Is it?
“If people do not accept some sort of moral standard, they will die.”
Everyone dies.
“The value of human life is always presupposed in this way.”
You’ve asked everyone if this the case?
“This is an act of faith, to presuppose the value of human life.”
I value my own life. It takes exactly zero faith for me to do this.
“Presupposing the value of human life requires some sort of metaphysical underpinning.”
Horse shit.
“What makes human life valuable, more valuable than molecules of carbon?”
Nothing.
“Most cultures and societies have believed that life is sacred because it is made that way by God.”
Please provide a comprehensive list of those that do / not to back up this assertion.
“What in our thinking is most important for us to hold on to, our beliefs about atheism or our value we put on human life.”
Our?
Beliefs?
“Nihilism naturally flows out of the atheist worldview.”
Please demonstrate this.
“We must seek to understand why we value life...”
I already know why...no gawds required for me to do so.
“Atheism entails nihilism.”
Please demonstrate this.
“If we are consistent in our philosophy, we must make it a first priority in our thinking to try to understand how we can intuitively perceive a system of objective morality that is in conflict with our thinking. If we fail to do this we will live in cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonest.”
Nope, not me. You might though.
“This is wisdom...”
Nope.
“...even for the most staunch atheist (I don't want any of you to go through what I did).”
I won’t go through what you did, I cannot.
“I don't want any of you to die.”
We all will despite what you want.
From your response to TinMan:
“Atheism entails nihilism.”
No, it doesn’t always entail nihilism.
“Without a belief in God, it is impossible to have a standard of objective morality.”
Please demonstrate this assertion.
“For an atheist, there is no way to objectively define why killing children is wrong.”
No objective way? So what? Killing a child is, for the most part, a dick thing to do. Do you know anyone that would tell you differently?
“There is no way to prove an objective system of morality from the standpoint of atheism.”
Why does there need to be?
I feel sad you had such a fucked up youth. Truly. And I take comfort that you found a way out of your selfish asshole lifestyle.
But atheism is not a gateway to nihilism.
You were just really messed up and conflated the two (atheism and immoral behavior).
The jails are full of theists who were addicts and murdered.
CyberLN, explain how you can have atheism without having nihilism.
@Joseph
You are the one making the claim, first you must prove that atheists, by default, are nihilists.
Making an assertion carries zero weight, you must be able to support your assertion.
Joseph, you asked how one can be atheist and not nihilist.
I think others here have answered that already. Have you read those posts?
The difference between our two views probably just comes down to this: you seem to think that the meaning of life must be given to you by something outside of yourself. I think the meaning of my life is that which I give it.
You have things backwards. I have already given you the definitions. Nihilism is a world view and atheism is a position on a single topic. Nihilists may be atheists. Atheists are not nihilists. There is not an atheist on this site, that I know of, that has claimed to be a nihilist. Atheism is a position on a single subject. 'The Existence of God" Atheists are people who do not believe in god. That may include Buddhists, New Age Woo Woo ists, people who believe in all sorts of crazy shit, including Nihilists. The fact that a nihilist may be attracted to Atheism does not mean all Atheists are nihilists. You might as well make the assertion that all atheists have blond hair because you once saw an Atheist with blond hair. You are being IGNORANT.
As I said, I am an atheist and I don't think my life is meaningless, nor do I reject all moral principles. Which part of that refutation are you struggling with?
nihilism
noun
The rejection of all religious and moral principles, in the belief that life is meaningless.
What a thunderous pile of utter bollocks.
Demonstrate that morality is objective, this will simply lead you to the assertion or presupposition of a god... then prove objectively there is a god.
You cannot do it!
All you theists have is logical arguements, none of which are deductive... or making claims that commit massive logic fallacies, I.e. god of the gaps.
An absolutely dog shit statement from start to finish.
@Joseph Original Post:
True.
Sounds like you made some pretty shitty choices given the freedom to create your own moral standards. I do feel I must point out I have met a fair amount of recovering addicts, never seen a recovering addict write like you do or follow that path of addiction to heroin, it makes me a tad suspicious of your "testimony."
So your completely un-evidenced story time... got it.
Disagree that this is wisdom. Yes it is good to know lots of folks "ASSUME" there is an objective moral standard, but their is zero evidence of it, and lots of evidence pointing towards a subjective moral standard. The rest of your point 1 falls apart after this.
Requires? How do you know that how do you or anyone else know it is required? Intellectually honest in all caps? Oooof the irony is strong here.
I am an atheist, and I hold some nihilism views, but I value complexity, and I know of nothing more complex than the human brain and the human social network and evolution. I have zero problems with thoughts of everything being pointless, and that nothing has value. I made my own morals and I have grown greater as a person, I continue to this day, I tend to find success in every area I take interest in, and feel I lead an amazing life that I built for myself without any "god" nonsense, I am free from the fear of god. Switching away from religion often time does leave a hole and despair/dark thoughts can fill that void if one is not careful, reach out and discuss with like minds, like here and realize giving up the absurd notion of GOD does not mean a pit of despair Nihilism.
And like others have said, atheist does not guarantee nihilism, not even close, and your writing speaks to your ignorance of what an "atheist" is.
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Theist Objective Morality: Don't kill if god says not to. Kill without mercy when it commands it.
I think Billy Goat Gruff better try and cross the bridge because I smell something nasty hiding underneath it. The prose style is all too familiar.
And what the blue fuck is a "dangerous socialist lifestyle"?
Once again we have a poster with all the social grace of a Komodo dragon, the intelligence of a swarm of midges , the reasoning power of a pile of mud. All wrapped up in hyperbole with a pink bow of an unidentified "gawd" on top.
I am going to kindergarten to pick up my grandkids, at least there they have rational,adult (by comparison) conversations.
@Old Man Shouts: This is what happens to a person who prays to be intelligent.
@Joesph
Atheism has nothing to do with nihilism.
You being an Athiest had nothing to do with you getting stoned, selling drugs, or being a nihilist.
@Joesph
Morals are subjective, even if they come from a god. Objective morals would be known by everyone, and would not require laws or a god.
You presumably used drugs when you were a Christian, too. How do I know this? Because everyone uses drugs, pretty much every day.
@Joseph: *Confused???* Nihilist Position??? Are you asserting that nihilism has something to do with atheism? Perhaps we need a bit of dictionary training.
Atheist: People who do not believe in God or gods.
Nihilist: A person who believes that life is meaningless and rejects all religious and moral principles.
I don't know any atheist who believes that life is meaningless or who rejects moral principles. If atheists rejected moral principles wouldn't the prison system be full of atheists? Fact is, the prison system is full of Christians and Muslims with atheists being highly under represented for their general population. Atheism does not equal Nihilism. The fact that you were a nihilist has nothing what so ever to do with Atheism.
RE: "The presumption of morality follows from its utter seriousness and from an intuitive knowledge of morality." HUH? Presumption? WTF are you talking about. Morality is an evolutionary trait of simply being human. We are social animals. We bonded together for our own survival. When people bond in small clans, they need to make rules about property, labor division, sharing food, territory, care for the sick , injured and elderly, and even what superstitions to believe. Morality is a direct function of bonding behavior. The more complex society becomes, the more complex our perception of morality.
RE: "Presupposing the value of human life requires some sort of metaphysical underpinning"
BULLEHIT! My child is bit by a poisonous snake and dies. I need no metaphysical underpinning to know that I valued his life. I need not metaphysical underpinning to know I am experiencing pain, loss, denial, anger, and grief. Human beings form emotional bonds. We have done this for survival and evolutionary benefits. Another consideration is that the value of human life only extends to my clan. Clan and tribal communities have no problem at all killing off other tribes or clans. This has been true throughout history. "Global Human Rights" is a modern idea.
RE: "Most cultures and societies have believed that life is sacred because it is made that way by God."
MORE INANE BULLSHIT: Most cultures and societies have believe THEIR OWN LIVES were sacred because THEY ARE SPECIAL AND GOD'S CHOSEN RACE OF PEOPLE. Jews, Christians, Muslims all share this perspective. The Abrahamic faiths are "In-group / Out-group" religions. You are in the group and special or outside the group and damned. They each believe they are SPECIAL AND GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE, anyone who does not believe the way they believe is damned.
RE: "Nihilism naturally flows out of the atheist worldview."
I have already stated "Atheism has nothing to do with Nihilism." Now the "Atheist World View." This is a bullshit "Straw Man" construction, created by theists so they have something to attack. Atheists HAVE NO WORLD VIEW. Atheism is a position on a single proposition made by the religious. "God exists!" Atheists do not believe in God or gods. NOTHING MORE. The world views that atheist hold are varied and widespread; furthermore, I would assert that most atheists are not and have nothing to do with Nihilism. (Nothing prevents a Nihilist from asserting they are atheist just as nothing prevents a Buddhist from asserting they are Atheist. Atheism has nothing to do with their "WORLD VIEWS." Atheism is completely separate position and it only concerns the Existence of a god. Atheists do not believe in the existence of God or gods.
RE: "we can intuitively perceive a system of objective morality that is in conflict with our thinking."
There is no cognitive dissonance between atheism and objective morality. Morality can be objective once a framework has been established. For most of us, Social Norms are the basis of morality. For others it may be the norms of a subculture and morality may vary; however, it still functions within the basic boundaries of Societal norms. (Some people use drugs recreationally for example.) NOTHING IS INTUITIVE We are raised by families and we live in a culture. We learn morality from the world around us. Human beings raised in the wild are completely absent this "INTUITIVE MORALITY" you speak of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIP8DV4RfOY Where is the morality in Feral Children if it is intuitive? YOU ARE JUST WRONG.
RE: "Objective Morality" ---- YOU ARE USING THE WORD INCORRECTLY. You are using objective morality as though is it synonymous with "ABSOLUTE MORALITY." Objective morality is objective when we understand the social context in which it occurs. Once we have a goal, all behavior to achieve that goal is "objective." NONE OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH ATHEISM. Secular Humanists assert that "Well Being" is the goal of moral behavior. That which is moral is in compliance with "Human Well Being." As long as well being is the goal, all behavior towards that goal can be labeled more moral or less moral.
This idea of "ABSOLUTE MORALITY' which you have mislabeled "OBJECTIVE MORALITY" does not exist. Please demonstrate this idea you have of absolute morality outside of a social context. I have never seen a theist cite one law or rule based on this idea of ABSOLUTE MORALITY. WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? If you assert that it comes from your version of a God. You must begin by proving your god is real and then that he is capable of dictating moral law.
Good Luck! All I see in anything you have written is "ANOTHER THEIST FAILURE."
...*trembling*.... *breaking out in cold sweat*... *eyes tightly shut*... *both fists clinched and shaking*... Trying..... to.... re... sist!... *shaking head in attempt to clear thoughts*... Can't.... hold.... on!..... *sudden cry of anguished pain*... Ahhhhhhhhhhhrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrg!!! That's it! I can't fight it any longer! Joseph wins! His wise and crafty words have finally convinced me I am truly a nihilist! Thank you, oh, thank you, dear Joseph, for delivering me from the lie I have been living all these years! YES! I am now finally FREE! All you atheist LOSERS who are in denial will never know how great it truly feels to realize absolutely NOTHING matters in this world! It feels... just... CAPITAL!... *howling at moon*... Woo-woo-how-oooooooooooooool!!! Now, if you all would excuse me, I plan on snorting a few lines of coke off the bare ass of a midget rodeo clown while watching gladiator porn and fucking an STD-infested guinea pig in a kiddie pool full of blueberry vodka jello shots in front of the playground of the local daycare. If I manage to get away from that without getting beaten and/or arrested, I plan on going to a busy intersection in a large city and stealing the canes and walkers from little old ladies as they try to cross the street... *running naked out door carrying a large bottle of vodka and a guinea pig*.... *Braveheart yell*... FREEEEeeeeee-dooooooommmmm!!!!!!.....
(Edited to add forgotten details.)
@Tin: Change the light bulb in back of your right ear. It burned out and is causing a short circuit. All will be fine in the morning.
@Cog
...*biting head off of live chicken*... *blood dripping from corners of mouth*... *crazy demented look in eyes*... Cog?... Is that you?... *looking around wildly*... Am I hearing voices again?... *tossing aside headless chicken*... *sparks flying from behind right ear*... Where's my naked little rodeo clown? I need another jello shot.... *licking the bars of the jail cell*... Mmmmmm.... The snozberries taste like snozberries!....
(Side note: Please don't ask how I managed to smuggle a live chicken into the jailhouse.)
What? Again the same "argument". Seriously Joseph, if you wan to talk about that, there are dozen theists before you who created a thread on that subject.
News flash for Joseph. The fact that atheism and immorality are not mutually exclusive doesn't mean an atheist must be immoral. Do you not understand that all human morality is subjective?
Please list ten objectively moral actions, with objective evidence, you seem to have ignored this request, and I can't even feign surprise here .
Also can you please explain why killing babies and taking recreational drugs is immoral? You dodged that question as well, unsurprisingly.
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