Why are christians so willing to throw away the Old Testament during debates but then cite the 10 commandments as moral law??
Thank you,
Burn your bible
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I'm wondering what you mean by "throw out". Maybe a sample might help. I do get the general idea of the contention.
This goes into how the Bible should be read especially how the early Christians understood the Bible. The concept goes that the Old conceals the New and the New reveals the Old. An example would be the 10 commandments, which confused me as a small child as it doesn't really command anything. I used to call it the 10 prohibitions.
It is revealed that in the New Testament, there are really just 2 commandments which summarize the entire 10 commandments and call Christians to not simply "do no wrong" but to actually perform good and loving actions.
Practical use of this is if I see someone dying of a gunshot wound. If I simply follow the commandment "Do not kill," I may simply leave him there to die. But the commandment to love demands that I do everything within my power to bring this person to the nearest emergency room and help him - "to love".
@ JoC
First of all the early christians didn't even have a bible.
2ndly, if they did, they couldn't read it nor would they understand it.
3rd, there are over 600 commandments in reality.
4th, NO, you don't get to pick and choose which commandments you get to follow. They are COMMANDMENTS, not suggestions.
Ten Commandments List
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall make no idols.
You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
Keep the Sabbath day holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Comm...
https://www.gospeloutreach.net/613laws.html
Christians recognize only 10 and ignore the other 603 because they violate them by virtue of being christian. They violate the ten that they recognize because they are hypocrites!
Oh wow, I've missed you! True, the Jews did have a bunch of laws (NOT commandments) which they had to follow. I haven't time to read thru each one but basically it doesn't contradict what I've said so far. These 600+ laws you mention simply fall under any one of the 10. Jesus summarized this further to 2 which summarizes as well as gives a more direct command to his people.
I've got a minor issue with your 10 commandments. Particularly, the second one. That's actually part and parcel of the 1st one. The list would go:
1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not murder.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's property
I'll go back to your original points. The early Christians did not have the Bible - Definitely not the one we have today. But they had preserved Christ's teachings in oral form which means your second point that they couldn't read it, moot as they didn't need to read it. They needed someone to teach them the teachings of Christ through oral form.
No JoC, you don't get out of things because of semantics!
There are 613 commandments, not ten and certainly not 2!
Also, I didn't post "MY" commandments. I am an atheist, I don't have commandments because there is no myth commanding me. I posted the original ten commandments translated into English.
But since you didn't like the Google ten commandments try this:
Exodus 20:1-17New International Version (NIV)
The Ten Commandments
20 And God spoke all these words:
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
From the highly disreputable biblegateway.com!
And consider this:
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/comment/reply/39382/74569
As far as "oral history" that is the worst form of history because too much is added or lost with even one conveyance.
Well simply put when I argue let's say slavery being immoral most christians say " that was the Old Testament "
I see. The same actually goes for divorce and Jesus had a perfect response to that one.
Matthew 19:8
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
Simply put, he allowed certain immoral acts to be committed because their "hearts were hard". Now he mentioned this for divorce but it's not hard to see he could've don this for slavery as well. It's like God put on the training wheels of his people so they would come to know the truth slowly. When Jesus came, it's as if he said, "No more training wheels, people."
As to slavery, from the little research I've done (I'm no expert so please don't quote me), the slavery the Jews did not look as bad as the slavery we know today. They were more like servants.
So I am not quoting you but please explain how owning another human as property and being able to beat them as long as they don't die within a day or two, as well as passing them along to your family because they are property is any way different then slavery in textbooks today. Also the idea of servants only really applies to Hebrew slaves but if you give them a wife and he wants to keep her after the 6 years he proclaims that he loves his master and once you pierce his ear he is yours forever. Also the wife that you gave him and any children she has with him are automatically your property for life.
The Protestant Christian view of the law or the commandments are that Jesus who is God affirmed the moral law or the 10 commandments in the New Testament. Jesus death was the beginning of a new covenant, the old covenant and mosaic law is no longer binding on Christians today. The Bible of the early Christians was the Old Testament or Torah until the books of the New Testament were written. Many of Jesus early followers were highly educated Jewish scholars who were able to read multiple languages unlike most of us today.
Please explain Matthew 5:17 & 18 then. It seems to contradict what you just said.
@aj777
Is it ever morally correct to own another human as property?
My opinion is no, but apart from an objective moral standard, that’s just my opinion. Also, sometimes we can be confused that the Bible describes immorality, but does not proscribe immorality.
AJ777: "My opinion is no"
Then you disagree with Jesus. One of the legends about him is that he remotely healed the slave of a Roman centurion. He never told the Centurion that slavery was wrong, but rather praised him for caring so much about his slave. So we can assume that Jesus thought slavery was fine.
What would you say to someone who told you he had a boy-slave ("pais" in both Matthew and Luke) in his house. I'd call the police. I certainly wouldn't give him kudos for being so kind to his slave.
Exodus 21-23 clearly gives guidelines to owning a slave, loophole on how to enslave your fellow Hebrew forever as well as condoning the beating of your slave as long as he doesn't die within a day or two. And these laws are supposedly givin by god.
As I think was stated above, slavery was not the cultural understanding of this practice. It was voluntary servanthood. For a limited period of time. Besides, if as you believe God does not exist then why is slavey wrong?
AJ777: "if as you believe God does not exist then why is slavey wrong?"
Well god and Jesus both approved of slavery, so I should think that non-belief would be prerequisite for a genuine anti-slavery position. If the god character in the Bible is your only source of morality, I pity you and those around you.
My belief that slavery is wrong has nothing to do with your imaginary friends. I grew up in modern democratic nations where individuals have inalienable rights. I value those rights. I believe in the Golden Rule as plagiarized by the authors of the Jesus legend from earlier sources. I wouldn't want a member of my family sold like an animal. Knowing how that would feel, I wouldn't want it to happen to anyone else. Morality comes from the indvidual conscience, refined by our experiences in families, communities, and societies.
Why is your opinion right and the opinion of Hitler wrong? Without an objective moral authority outside of the individual or society morality is mere preference. How does “you shall love your neighbor as yourself” condone slavery in any possible way?
AJ777: "Why is your opinion right and the opinion of Hitler wrong?"
Hitler's opinion about what?
"How does “you shall love your neighbor as yourself” condone slavery in any possible way?"
If we assume that "neighbor" means any other person and not just a member of your own tribe, it certainly doesn't. So if Jesus said that one day and condoned slavery on another day, what does that make him?
Oh oh pick me pick me I can answer............ drumroll please!!!
It makes him a hypocritical immoral asshole!!!
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Only for Hebrews was it a servanthood also there was a loophole to enslave them forever, beat them as long as they don't die within a day or two, and pass them to your children as property. And to your second question again as a species we have realized that owning humans as property is horrid and immoral. In your bible god not only allows slaves but allows their deaths to go unpunished as long as it is three days after the beating! There is no way around this and you questioning non believers morality only confuses you on what your god says. So let me spin this back on you... you said earlier that to you slavery is wrong so I ask you what makes you more moral than the god of the Bible?????
Also as a side not I think you need to actually read your bible instead or searching google for apolitical answers to your books flaws!
As a species slavery is still widely practiced. Child sex trafficking and prostitution in the U.S. the caste system in India, etc... I am not more moral than God. Have you ever considered that instead of trying to honestly understand what the Bible says, you read it in order to confirm your preconceived prejudice?
Also, it seems you are avoiding the question as to why you’re opinion on what is moral is correct?
Again there are laws against child sex trafficking, slavery, etc. I read the Bible in order to use its own laws to disprove it! In the other post I explained why my morals are correct. So read!
Let's take it one step further
Does god in the Bible allow slavery?
Does god in the Bible allow the beating of slaves as long as they don't die within a day or two?
Does god in the Bible allow the passing along slaves as property?
Does the god of the Bible allow stoning disobedient children?
Does the god of the Bible allow mass killing of sinners?
if you answered yes to any of these then your god is an immoral piece of shit! Also if he was here today he would be sentenced to life in prison! See you are more moral than you so called god!
If you do not agree with the question ask and I will quote your fucking bible!
I actually like the way you phrased your questions. Did god allow these things to happen? Yes. God may choose to allow certain bad things to happen as he can no doubt bring about a greater good out of it. His reasons for doing so aren't usually clear during the time but given enough time, the reasons become more and more apparent.
The one issue I have, however, is the one about stoning disobedient children, then I almost laughed again at this because this is exactly the kind of thing I grew up with. Our parents would warn us against certain things or else we'll die - I kid you not. This is very strong language used in the Bible and is called "exaggeration to prove a point" which is, "Children, don't be disobedient to your parents."
Ok yet in the times this over exaggeration caused real people to kill real children!!! Also this goes on today in countries or cultures that still practice fundamental punishments based on your disgusting holy book. So to me this is no laughing matter!
Of course there are laws against those things. They don’t seem to be stopping criminals from breaking them even though we are now evolved beyond doing those things. In fact if we really were evolved beyond slavery, rape, and murder, those laws would not be necessary. Funny how that fits in with why the laws in the Old Testament were given to a specific group of people at a specific time and do not apply to Christians today. Why are you so angry?
I said we have evolved as a species not individuals there is a fundamental difference.
Why are you so angry at Christians. If God doesn’t exist as you say then isn’t it evolved humans commanding and committing immorality?
Answer my questions first then I will respond to your nonsensical babble
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