One thing absolute "pro-lifers" forget

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LogicFTW's picture
Absent dna and meiosis that

Absent dna and meiosis that would be the case, and all we had was mitosis without dna, then we would need a single individual "cell" for mutation to spread.

Instead we have dna that can even mutate within one life span cycle and meiosis. A darkening of skin pigment in homo sapiens as a mutation did not arise from a single individual and then spread. Same with eye color, hair, or any other "mutation" you can possibly think of.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
To say something did not

To say something did not arise from a single individual, is to say it arose from multiple individuals simultaneously. Correct?

LogicFTW's picture
Multiple? yes.

Multiple? yes.

Simultaneously? no.

Sky Pilot's picture
ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ,

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ,

"To say something did not arise from a single individual, is to say it arose from multiple individuals simultaneously. Correct?"

Some of the major drivers of evolution are viruses and bacteria. So if a new virus infects a population it can trigger a genetic change (mutation) in succeeding generations. We are the results of countless viruses and bacteria affecting our basic life form over eons.

Sheldon's picture
It's not the same at all,

It's not the same at all, Genesis is an archaic superstitious fantasy with no objective evidence to support, that is roundly contradicted by multiple objective facts.

Evolution is supported by an overwhelming amount of objective evidence from multiple fields of scientific endeavour.

Genesis is to evolution what witch doctors are to medical science.

toto974's picture

The other side of the coin is that we would all be one family^^. It would be kind of boring for the first generations because your pool of prospect would not be very big.

Sheldon's picture
God can interfere though

God can interfere though according to theists and their religious texts.

How come according to theists it (deity) answers fairly mundane prayers that interfere with the free will of its creation, but sits on its hands to allow things like child rape and cancer?

If sin wasn't part of this deities plans why does he have so many rules about it?

How is drowning every living thing in a global flood ok, but this deity can't stop babies dying of malaria every minute of every day?

How is it ok for this deity to lecture humans on morality then commit indiscriminate murder? How is it morally acceptable to torture a man and kill his entire family just to win a bet, or to ask a man to murder his own infant child to test how much of a good follower he'd become? That sounds more like Nazism to me, than a moral blueprint for humanity.

Dave Matson's picture


It seems odd that an omnipotent, omniscient being should be so helpless! There is certainly nothing stopping such a being from creating people more resistant to making bad choices. Statistically speaking, God could have created people who sin half the time that they do now, all that without any sacrifice of free will.

If people like doing evil, then who made them that way? If they are evil because they face temptations stronger than their ability to resist, then who made them that way? God could have made a race of people who never sin! The freedom to choose sin does not logically imply that one must, on occasion, do so! I don't have to kill my pet cat to prove that I have free will. The fact that I would never harm my pet cat without good reason does not make me a robot devoid of free will! People "sin" because they are too weak to continually resist, or because they were born with a love of evil. However you slice it, God has only himself to blame for any sin and death in his domain. Doesn't sound like an omnipotent, omniscient god to me!

Sky Pilot's picture
ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ,

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ,

"So in Christian theology, sin and death are not part of God's will, but it is a reality we now have to deal with."

Look at it like this:

If Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies, wants more people he can make the men out of dirt and the women out of the men's ribs.

If Yeshua wants more Christians he can resurrect the dead ones.

If people want more people then they should spend all of their available time having unprotected sex.

If people want other people to have more people then they should stop whining and help pay for the cost of raising more people. So the next time you see a woman and child whip out your wallet and give her at least $100. And do that each time you encounter a woman with children. Yahweh will bless you. Don't you want to be blessed? A word of caution: You're going to need a large suitcase of $100 bills if you go near an elementary school at the wrong time of the day.

Sapporo's picture
I suppose with a god,

I suppose with a god, everything is permitted, so when a god kills most of humanity, it is not considered murder. Similarly, if Abraham had killed Isaac, presumably Abraham would not have considered this murder either.

toto974's picture
Be careful Sapporo, he will

Be careful Sapporo, he will anwser you that what you've just said is not part of his theology.18

Sheldon's picture
ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ "The second

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ "The second part is simply not applicable to me; its either a misrepresentation of Christian theology, or the theology of Christian's you know and I don't."

"They say that abortion is always the most abhorrent SIN... They say that all things happen because of god's will,"

Are you saying abortion isn't a sin, and that things don't happen according to god's will?

Ephesians 1:11 11 All things are done according to God's plan and decision; and God chose us to be his own people in union with Christ because of his own purpose, based on what he had decided from the very beginning.

Here are some christians who think abortion is a sin, since you claim you "don't know any".

Sapporo's picture
ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ: In other

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ: In other words, since people die every day, why should we ban murder.

You make a good point: god carrying out murder does not justify murder.

Sheldon's picture
I was under the impression

I was under the impression most civilized societies did attempt to ban murder?

toto974's picture
I am eager to look at the

I am eager to look at the source of this information. Thanks! It is an high quantity when you look at a countrie level and more so at the global one

Sapporo's picture
Being pro-choice does not

Being pro-choice does not mean being anti-life or pro-abortion.

Abortion is not comparable to murder because the fetus is not independent of the prospective mother (or at least, the legal limit for abortions is intended to be as conservative as feasible). A fetus should not deprive the prospective mother of their own life, because that would of course give the fetus a right not permitted to their host.

toto974's picture
I don't know the laws in the

I don't know the laws in the US (I am assuming you from there), but in France, which at certain times can be pretty conservative, the laws about abortion are pretty good, so i see no need to argue.

Sapporo's picture
Looking at the legal

Looking at the legal gestational limit for abortion in the past, I remember feeling squeamish about it being as late 24 weeks and thinking that 20 weeks would be better, save exceptional circumstances. But being male, it really doesn't feel like my domain to have a definitive say - I don't believe that women would deliberately cause unnecessary suffering by prolonging their pregnancy for no sound reason before finally going through with an abortion.

edit: sorry, meant to say "squeamish", not "churlish" before.

Sapporo's picture
Theists have long used the

Theists have long used the argument that we are subject to the evil that men do because we have free choice, but then some of them describe themselves as anti pro-choice.

Ramo Mpq's picture
Seeing how almost every

Seeing how almost every thread eventually becomes about religion. It's funny seeing how theists (and all religions) are living rent free in the minds of atheists lol

Sapporo's picture
Searching for truth: Seeing

Searching for truth: Seeing how almost every thread eventually becomes about religion. It's funny seeing how theists (and all religions) are living rent free in the minds of atheists lol

Well to be fair, the thread started off by referring to the topic in the context of religious thought.

LogicFTW's picture
@searching for truth

@searching for truth
Unfortunately many theist try and do impose their unsupported opinions on everyone else, with often times devastating effects. So it ends up being a topic of conversation, especially on an atheist/theist DEBATE BOARD.

You trying to win "victory" points by saying we talk and ponder on theist subjects on a debate board comes off as childish attempt to shame people here somehow in your head makes you right and us wrong is a pretty pitiful point to try to bring up in the face of how clearly labeled this board is.

Tin-Man's picture
Re: "It's funny seeing how

Re: "It's funny seeing how theists (and all religions) are living rent free in the minds of atheists lol"

Hey, Hulkster. How's it goin'? Interesting... My wife read something to me this morning that seems fairly applicable to that statement, and is even somewhat relevant to this thread. I may have to paraphrase a bit, but I will be as accurate as I can remember....

Religion is very much like this in most places:
A young couple are sitting on a park bench on a lovely Sunday afternoon enjoying an ice cream cone together. A man passing by stops and looks at them and says, "That looks really good, but my beliefs do not allow me to eat ice cream on Sundays."
The girl looks up at the man a bit bewildered and tells him, "Uh, okay. So don't eat ice cream today."
The man replies, "Well, since my beliefs do not allow me to eat ice cream on Sunday, then you should not be allowed either."

Basically, as long as theists keep their personal religious beliefs to themselves, then I am quite confident most any atheist on here would not give two hoots and a holler about religion. Would probably rarely cross our minds. Unfortunately, that simply is not the case. Therefore, it really should be no surprise that many atheists have a justified concern about religions occupying their brains. Believe me, we would all definitely be much happier if we never had to think about religion ever again. Problem is, we are never really given the chance to forget about it.

Sheldon's picture
No it isn't, that's absurd.

Says the theist spending all his time on an atheist forum. Christ you post some dumb nonsense.

Sapporo's picture
Sheldon: Says the theist

Sheldon: Says the theist spending all his time on an atheist forum. Christ you post some dumb nonsense.

Wait... @Searching for truth is Christ?? He's kept his return comparatively low-key so far.

Sheldon's picture
He has the same tenuous grasp

He has the same tenuous grasp of reality as the one in the bible.

Cognostic's picture
I'm so happy someone else

I'm so happy someone else pointed that out. I don't know why it is just not said more often.
This is your brain (Imagine a picture of a well formed brain.) This is your brain on theism (same picture with a large rock splattering the brain all over the place.)

toto974's picture
@ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ

@ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ

You didn't answer me about the fact that sexual reproduction, at least for the human specie, is far from being optimal. And you can say whatever you want about your god not being responsible for sin, it still doesn't explain why he would refrain from premitting all potential babies to come to life.

Muashkis's picture
What angers me most, is the

What angers me most, is the train of thought Christians follow.

First, advertise against the usage of condoms, as if sperm was sacred.
Follow up with poor sex-ed, so people don't even know they should use condoms.
Attempt justifying the resulting high juvenile birth rates.
End up calling every child that survives the whole ordeal as a Sinner at birth.
Condemn any child that doesn't survive until baptism to Hell.
Let priests go unpunished after abusing some of the most loyal kids.

Wow, Heaven must be all out of room, if theists need so much effort to ensure as many kids as possible suffer if not in Hell, then at least in life.

Cognostic's picture
@ talynEarth03 "They say

@ talynEarth03 "They say that abortion is always the most abhorrent SIN"

LOL - Not only is abortion practiced in the bible, God himself is the greatest practitioner of abortion that history has known.

"11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

This is the law...."

Kill those unwanted babies - It 'IS' the Biblical way.


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