One thing absolute "pro-lifers" forget
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I agree with you about theists trying to shove their beliefs down people’s throats. But, its also ironic and coincidental you bring that example up because Atheists all do that exact same thing. True strory, about 2-3 weeks ago my friend and I took our kids to play at an inside playground (jumping castles, slides and all the fun stuff kids love). When he and I started talking about religion (both Muslims), I was actually telling him about my experience on this forum, then some random guy sitting next to us tried to tell us we wrong. 2 minutes in to the conversation with this guy I asked if he was an Atheist and said yes (I asked because he sounded exactly like you guys lol). We talked for about 45 mins on and off as we each had to constantly check on our kids. Point of the story is, it’s not a “problem” exclusive to theists, Atheists do the exact same thing. Reminds about the joke of how do you know if someone is a vegan? Just wait 2 mins, they will tell you. Yes, it would be better if people minded their own business and only talked about it when appropriate or asked but, someone people simply think and believe they are above others and feel the need to force their views on others.
@Searching for truth
Have you a comtemporary example of atheist shoving their "beliefs" down people throats please?
Pretty hilarious you have to admit, he comes to an atheist forum, and claims the atheists are ramming atheism down his throat. Now that's funny, like so many theists he seems irony impaired.
That's exactly what he gave in his comment. You added quotes around the word ``beliefs'': may I infer that you doubt that there are beliefs to be `shoved down people's throats?' Certainly, many of the atheists here seem to believe that all or most theists ought to abandon theism; that's a belief to `shove down people's throats.'
"many of the atheists here seem to believe that all or most theists ought to abandon theism; that's a belief to `shove down people's throats.'"
That's like spending all your time at a bar and claiming they are trying to force drink on you. I'm also not sure your assumption about atheists on here is true. I have heard atheists on here state they don't wish to forcibly strip theists of their beliefs, I am one of them. I shan't speak for others as you have done, but I think it would be beneficial for humankind in general if they moved away from archaic religious beliefs that contain doctrine and dogma that is pernicious in the 21st century, and instead based their morality on the idea we are all equal regardless of what we believe, and that our morality should try to stop unnecessary suffering in all humans and to a lesser degree in all conscious animals. Rather than cherry picking ambiguous religious texts in the belief adherence to them regardless of who suffers as a consequence, will appease a deity for whose existence no objective evidence can be demonstrated.
Does stating my opinion equate to ramming it down people's throats?
Read it again, and think. Did I claim that they're trying to force their drink on me? Read it again, and think.
I am not really all that friendly towards theist, but theist threw the first few (hundred) stones. I can avoid theist easily enough in conversation and most of life. But they still do ram a lot of laws, and powerful cultural customs down the throats of atheist that are heavily enforced. I would have zero problems with theist if they just let others be. I also have a problem with ignorance in general, because as a quasi free and democratic country I live in, I rely on others to make proper informed decisions when they vote, and let me tell you the general public has failed, over and over, and over again, and I think ignorance in general plays a big role in that.
"Read it again, and think. Did I claim that they're trying to force their drink on me? Read it again, and think."
Read it again and think. Did I claim you said "they're trying to force their drink on you"? Read it again and think.
Hey, thanks for the reply. Yeah, I have no doubt there are atheists who try to "force-feed" their views on others. After all, humans will be humans. *chuckle* Personally, I avoid talking about my personal views like that in public. And if I happen to hear others having private conversations about their personal religious beliefs, it is none of my business, as far as I am concerned. At the same time, however, should somebody happen to approach me and ask my opinion about religion, if I have a few moments to spare, I really don't mind engaging in a respectful discussion. Could be interesting, and - who knows - I might even learn something.
But that is not what I am concerned about regarding the analogy in that post. Having re-read it, I realize I should have been more clear. What that analogy was meant to specifically illustrate is how religions (primarily Christianity and Islam) seem doggedly and dead-set determined to become the "law of the land" under which EVERYBODY must obey their dictates. To put it bluntly, that is just WRONG. In other words, religion has no place in our governments. Yet, sadly, it is an extremely dangerous weapon wielded about - sometimes with precision, but most often clumsily - by narrow-minded individuals and/or groups who seem to despise the fact there are people who do not believe in their chosen god. And THAT, my friend, is the reason religion is often on the minds of most atheists.
Here's the thing... You are Muslim, right? Personally, I totally respect your right to believe in Islam. Hell, if you ever find yourself in the central Alabama area let me know, and we can meet up for a drink somewhere. I served seventeen years in the Army helping to protect the rights of people to worship as they wish. Now, imagine one day you wake up and hear on the news that all U.S. citizens are required to join their local Baptist Church or face criminal charges. And that anybody caught practicing any other religion would also face criminal charges. A disturbing thought, to say the least, right? And that is the difference.
It is one thing to have a guy standing on the corner with a "Jesus is Lord" sign and preaching to anybody within earshot. A little annoying, maybe, but no big deal, really. Come to think of it, that actually gives me a peace of mind that he is allowed to do that. But to have laws mandated and enforced saying we have to obey the beliefs that man is preaching?..... THAT is where I have a problem.
Furthermore, the "Atheist worldview", which doesn't exist, doesn't pose existential questions the same way theistic ones do. Atheism doesn't bother you with hell, sins, cosmic struglle between good and evil. In my opinion, when an atheist shares his or her views, the stakes are less than when it is a theist who does the same thing. So in a way, atheism is less anoying than theism
Agreed, it's a far less contemptuous discussion, generally. And I also only ever knew one really militant atheist among my friends - my elder sis. She sure as hell was one to drive any theist in a corner whenever presented with an opportunity. Then again, as stated by others, it's definitely not a societal norm in RL for most of us. As for everything always degrading to religious talks on the boards... Pent Up Frustration should describe it? Though that's to be expected, since most of us have the common decency not to bring these subjects up and in theist's face in our everyday lives. And we surely have many points we want to speak our minds about.
The site is called ATHEIST REPUBLIC, of course, at one time, ,religion will be brought, and it seems to me that it is our religious friends that do it , mos of the time
@ When he and I started talking about religion (both Muslims), I was actually telling him about my experience/
In a public space within ear shot of other people. Why don't you have the decency to keep your mouth shut about your silly unsubstantiated religious nonsense. You are missing the entire point of Atheism.
Religion has been taboo to comment on for 2000 years. If I hear two sub human dweebs talking about religion in a public place I am going to join in as well. YOU DON'T GET SPECIAL STATUS ANY MORE. You don't like people who challenge you, keep your beliefs, your silly beliefs to yourself. You don't get to have confidentiality in public when you are having a conversation within ear shot of someone else.. Imagine two atheists talking about atheism and Islam in front of some Muslims. We already know what is going to happen. The Muslims shoot at them, Watch the news.
Grow up. Talk about shoving things down people's throats. Violent fundamentalist Muslims will shoot nearly anyone who isn't a Muslim.
Well, hello my fellow monkey heathen. How are you today? Seems someone get off to a bad start
“In a public space within ear shot of other people.” Yup, and I don’t care. Dis is ‘Merca, bruh
“Why don't you have the decency to keep your mouth shut about your silly unsubstantiated religious nonsense.” 1st amendment, bruh.
“You are missing the entire point of Atheism.” Nope, I am not.
“Religion has been taboo to comment on for 2000 years” No, it has not.
“If I hear two sub human dweebs talking about religion in a public place I am going to join in as well.” Good for you, bruh.
“YOU DON'T GET SPECIAL STATUS ANY MORE.” Why you mad, bruh?
“You don't like people who challenge you, keep your beliefs, your silly beliefs to yourself.” LOLOLOLOLOL Bruh, I am a Muslim on an Atheist forum. How dense does your brain have to be to come to a brain damaged conclusion like that? AHAHAHAHA
“You don't get to have confidentiality in public when you are having a conversation within ear shot of someone else..” Actually, I do if I want but, I also have no problem people jumping in as long as it’s with respect and not some angry monkey yelling and trying to shove their narrow minded beliefs on me.
“Imagine two atheists talking about atheism and Islam in front of some Muslims.” Ok, I imagined it. Now what? Holy hell, I am still alive and well. I guess not everyone is threatened by the mere thought or imagination of others that don’t agree with them.
“We already know what is going to happen.” Oh, great oracle monkey, please predict the future for me and give me the lotto numbers for next year.
“The Muslims shoot at them, Watch the news.” Oh, shit. BANG BANG!!! Down goes Frasier, down goes Frasier. Oh crap, I think I messed up. Let me try that again. BANG BANG!!! Down goes the Atheist lol.
Thank you for the early morning laughs, Cog. Glad this didn’t happen in person or else, based off your ill minded logic I might have had to shoot you.
His avatar is not a monkey, do you not even know the difference?
"How dense does your brain have to be to come to a brain damaged conclusion like that? AHAHAHAHA"
" not some angry monkey"
Still not a monkey, champ.
"Oh, great oracle monkey, "
It's not a monkey. Stick to pumping iron, your brain is clearly not where your strengths lie.
I didn't even think of that Sheldon. (One point for you.) I stopped taking this guy seriously a week ago. I should find a pick of a Bonobo. Pretty much nothing at all I say to OP is a serious opinion. Obviously he is not serious about any of the garbage he is posting and like breeds like. He is not on a serious quest for any sort of information. His made up stories are of the same genre as the cartoon character selected as an avatar. That, or he really does not know what a monkey is.
Ofcourse, someone that pick an avatar of a hulk on an anonymous board, then goes on and on about how they are "fit" and strong and work out, chances are, they wish that was true about themselves, so they project it when they can get away with it. (Anonymous boards.)
If I had to guess, based on his writing and actions on these boards, searching for truth is not fit/muscular looking at all.
So yeah he should pump iron, but that is not a "strength" of his eithir.
I do assume you also already considered this as well Sheldon.
The difference between a chimp and a monkey is here unimportant.
I disagree, and the problem is that you are (again) leaping into a discussion spanning multiple threads over many weeks, and going off 'half cocked'. I'll indulge you though, the poster is a chippy Muslim who delights in making grandiose claims asking loaded questions, and refusing to acknowledge either answers even direct quotes from the Koran that contradict his claims, or any questions others addressed to him. He is trolling in point of fact, and most people only bother with him now in a dismissive way that he has more than earned I'm afraid. Anyone who dares disagree him more than once is bombarded with denigrating vituperations labelling them bigoted or racist. The real irony is we had just such a hateful bigoted racist breeze through here recently and I challenged his vile prejudices against Muslims every time he posted them. Our chippy hulk friend did not respond once to any of this guys bigotry, but chose instead to accuse others of bigotry, I have said many ties that when extremists from both sides are attacking and insulting me I must be doing something right.
The significance of someone who in almost every post has resorted to ad hominem comments about people's intellect not knowing the difference between a monkey and chimpanzee I'd have thought was self evident.
Self-evidence is a fool's game, and you know it. I saw enough of the conversation to get the relevant context.
"The difference between a chimp and a monkey is here unimportant."
Talk like Yoda you do.
Sorry, by I completely agree with Cog on this one. Discussing religion in a public space is just asking for it. Just as you have rights to speak openly, other people have equal rights to criticize your words. No matter the country and constitution. If you can't take the criticism live, then stick to private conversations/forums. No other way around it...
Still, in my experience, most atheists would actually turn a blind eye to a religious conversation, and would only involve themselves if addressed specifically. Might have gotten a rather militant one, or you might have spoken too loudly/directly yourselves. Knowing your past conduct of dishonesty in here, I'm more inclined to believe the latter.
Also - welcome to the group of people who get persecuted for their beliefs. Feels good, right? :)
Muashkis: I actually agree with you - I would make some exceptions but I am also a social human being. My personal space or peace would have to be encroached upon and I would have to have a reason for not moving away. Face it, it is just easier to relocate with confronted with stupidity.
I also think he either heavily embellished or made up the story in part or in whole.
"Met at a park" sounds a lot like fiction to me, sounds like a crafted story, not a retelling of events. Unfortunately we will never really know one way or the other.
“After all, humans will be humans” Yes, and that was also my main point in my post.
“I avoid talking about my personal views like that in public.” I am not sure if I was unclear but I said my friend and I were talking. We were not shouting or being loud just 2 guys talking in a public place. While we were discussing our personal views, that does not mean we were trying to enforce or impose our personal views on the public. I know you did not say we were trying to do so but I just wanted to be extra clear.
“And if I happen to hear others having private conversations about their personal religious beliefs, it is none of my business, as far as I am concerned” Agreed.
“At the same time, however, should somebody happen to approach me and ask my opinion about religion, if I have a few moments to spare, I really don't mind engaging in a respectful discussion. Could be interesting, and - who knows - I might even learn something.” WOW, a reasonable atheist on this forum. Tinman, you continue to surprise me lol.
“What that analogy was meant to specifically illustrate is how religions (primarily Christianity and Islam) seem doggedly and dead-set determined to become the "law of the land" under which EVERYBODY must obey their dictates.” When it comes to Islam that is actually not true. Islam specifically states that if you migrate to a different country, Muslims are required to follow the laws of that land as long as it does not compromise their faith. There are no mandated laws in the US, or any other country I can think of that have mandatory laws that will cause a Muslim to compromise their own faith. Therefore, we (Muslims) are required not only by the legal law to follow the law but, even by our own faith to be good lawful and abiding citizens.
“In other words, religion has no place in our governments. Yet, sadly, it is an extremely dangerous weapon wielded about - sometimes with precision, but most often clumsily - by narrow-minded individuals and/or groups who seem to despise the fact there are people who do not believe in their chosen god. And THAT, my friend, is the reason religion is often on the minds of most atheists.” By that rationale, religion is not only in the mind of most atheists, it’s in the mind of everyone. What I meant by my statement of “living rent free” is that even on a public forum, which has 0 to do with government or even if a thread does not start off with religion, it always ends up becoming about religion. And the first ones to always invoke religion in to the conversation are atheists. Look at my “The transgender delusion” thread, it’s been a few pages since the main topic of transgenders has been discussed, it’s turned in to a religious thread. Even though I mentioned NOTHING about religion in my initial post. It took a whole 12 minutes before old man’s response started talking about religion. Atheists that I have personally met and ones on this forum can’t help themselves when it comes to talking about religion, even when the topic has nothing to do with religion.
“Here's the thing... You are Muslim, right?” SWEET!!! You have been paying attention.
“Personally, I totally respect your right to believe in Islam.” Thank you
“Hell, if you ever find yourself in the central Alabama area let me know, and we can meet up for a drink somewhere” I will keep that in mind next time in visit my cousin in Daphne.
“But to have laws mandated and enforced saying we have to obey the beliefs that man is preaching?..... THAT is where I have a problem.” Same here.
Yeah, I knew what you meant when you said you and your friend were just having a normal conversation. And, honestly, my initial thought was that it seemed rather rude of the guy to interrupt the conversation between the two of you.
Granted, you, and others who share your mindset, may not have any desire to impose/enforce your beliefs on others. Just like I have many Christian friends and family who are content to let others believe as they like. And that is exactly how it should be. Unfortunately, there are way too many others who do not share that mentality. And even worse, many of those individuals and groups happen to have vast amounts of wide-ranging power and influence. And they firmly believe they are totally justified in forcing their beliefs on everybody else. Once again, I cannot abide that.
Let's put it this way. Say you want to go out to a public park on a nice autumn day and spread out your prayer rug to conduct a prayer session. Cool beans. Go for it. You have every right to do exactly that. Just like any Christian has the right to have a prayer meeting there. Just like any Buddhist has a right to sit and do meditations. It does not bother me in the slightest. Actually, it makes me feel good to live in a country where that is allowed. But let's say some idiot walks over to you (or the Christians or the Buddhist) and interrupts your prayer session and gives you a hard time about it. That idiot is flat out wrong for doing so. And if I were to see something like that happen, I would intervene if possible, and tell the idiot to go mind his own damn business. True, I do no believe in, much less practice, any of those religions. But I'm not going to stand by and watch another person get hassled for peacefully practicing what he/she believes.
Which brings us back to the sad fact there are way too many folks out there who DO NOT "peacefully practice" their beliefs, and for whatever reason(s) feel fully justified in trying to force their belifs on others. THOSE are the ones that keep the pot stirred and refuse to allow people to exist together peacefully.
By the way, Daphne is waaaaay south of me, but I imagine you would have to pass somewhere near me to get there. My afternoons and early evenings are generally free.
Oh, almost forgot. You said...
"By that rationale, religion is not only in the mind of most atheists, it’s in the mind of everyone."
Precisely! You nailed it. If the powerful and highly active Christian groups in this country had their way right now, it would be illegal for you to worship as a Muslim. And make no mistake, there are many such groups/organizations lobbying relentlessly within the government to make that a reality. And it would not stop at just Islam, it would target anybody who does not follow their "Christian Values". So, yeah, that is something that should probably be on just about everybody's mind.
I just want to add, what tinman said about the goal of many christians, and many muslims, (and many other religions) is spot on. The evidence of it is everywhere. We are already laboring under these loss of freedoms various religions impose upon us, and I mean all of us, not just atheist or christians or muslims, but every single one of us.
"Even though I mentioned NOTHING about religion in my initial post. It took a whole 12 minutes before old man’s response started talking about religion."
You are a muslim. I knew you were a muslim. The way of Islam is such is that it dictates (or should) your every action and thought on this earth. Your very thought processes are conditioned by your religion SfT so your problems and fixation on transgenders was not some independent thought but, should have been motivated by your faith, as every thought and action you take on a daily basis . Hence religion is at the core of your self, and I responded as such.
That was just about the only tenet of Islam I could get my mentors to agree upon.
I also notice you never did clearly respond to my post about the Law of Islam on transgender and homosexual behavior. Do you agree that the two main schools of Islamic law prescribe flogging and or the tossing off of high buildings? Or do you reject such Islamic scholars and the practice of Islamic law?