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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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@Nyarlathotep,
Ok, then explain the Sudarium of Oviedo! The blood stains and face match the shroud! They are in different countries. I can't put that away
In what way do they "match"?
@Nyarlathotep,
Blood type both AB, blood in the same places of head and neck, dimensions of the face through 3D imaging the same.
It just seems highly unlikely that all this stuff was forged and with such consistency. I will concede that even if these are real they do not prove Jesus rose from the dead, but they do make everything interesting. It could prove that Jesus existed, as many on here are quite convinced that he didn't. Also, if this is the case, seems strange all these witnesses would have claimed he was raised from the dead. The shroud also doesn't have an explanation for how it could have been created so perfectly with such 3D detail that an,xray machine could examine. Paintings do not have these 3d capabilities. So therefore, at the very least, I think it is safe to say it wasn't a forgery, and the individual may have been Jesus due to the crown of thorns on the head, israeli limestone and plants, and consistency with the Sudarium. Very unlikely to have been a painting.
Hundreds of millions of people have blood type AB; how is that a convincing match?
I bet my face has the same dimensions as well (I am a human male after all).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's talk about consistency for a moment:
@Nyarlathotep,
Here is a video which shows the consistency between the two:
https://youtu.be/FW6tZI_KGVI
(Less than one min so you can just see it)
And further, then why do the limestones match Jerusalem stones, the plants match Israeli plants, and remnants of Turkish plants as the shroud was in Turkey for a while. Also, there is real blood on it, and the carbon dating you speak of was on a part of the cloth that was newer after a fire. Scientists in 1982 re tested it ans found it to come from around 1000 bc to 200 ad, which is the correct time,frame. Also the blood came from a person who was suffering. Seems too difficult to forge.
OK, I've tried to be nice, but I won't sugar coat it anymore. That is an obvious lie. Anyone who says that, or repeats it doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about. Stop getting "facts" from youtube liars!
@Nyarlathotep,
But even the history channel says it was wrong and national geographic. Do you really think people lied like Dr. Rogers and Dr. Kohlbeck about testing the blood and the remnants? One thing William Guy said that was strange though was that the scientists "secretly" tested the shroud and didn't tell the community as they were not supposed to test it. I thought that was strange. It seems theists will say the blood is real and atheists will say the blood is fake
Russian-Tank. Do I need to spell it out for you? I guess so.
The Catholic church cut the samples from the shroud in 1988. They were radiometric dated by 3 independent labs in the same year and their results published in 1989. So the retesting of these samples in 1982 (which is what you just told us!) would seem to require some very special equipment:
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
@Nyarlathtep,
Ok let me ask you this hypothetical question. If you found out the shroud was actually Jesus (I know it cannot be proven but lets assume you found that out) would you then believe that Jesus rose from the dead? Or would you still think even if it is him that there is a natural explanation to it?
IF and it is a big IF Russian-Tank, that the myth of the shroud was true and it is the shroud that the mythical jesus was buried in, all it would prove is that jesus was buried in it nothing more. It doesn't prove that he was the son of god, that there was even a god, that he was jewish, that he rose again, nothing!
Also, you need to get off of YouTube. I have seen drug users less addicted than you.
Probably not. If I brought in the cloth that wrapped up the body of my uncle, you won't believe he rose from his grave would you?
Now a question for you: when you realized you had been victimized by a professional liar (the whole re-testing in 1982); why did that not shake your belief that the shroud was authentic?
@Nyarlathotep
Well, I'm prety sure that is what he said:
https://youtu.be/N-FWBCQJ7GY
(From 24:00 to 26:40)
He said that he and some other researchers found out something they weren't supposed to know or reveal as the catholic church would have forbidden them from testing the shroud.
Then he goes into this whole spiel about how the carbon dating later on (that you mentioned) was flawed and uses the history channel as his proof:
https://youtu.be/N-FWBCQJ7GY
(26:40 to 30:51)
It seems like there may be some lying here but I would love some others on this forum to also look at the two segments I have pointed out to see if you agree that this looks fishy as I thought the first time I saw that part of the video.
You do know that the history channel is full of shit; right? I mean we are talking about the alien abduction channel here...
The History channel is owned by Rupert Murdock. That sats everything. It is a propaganda channel.
You could read two copies of a Harry Potter novel and they'd be identical, does this evidence what's written in them?
I don't understand what you think needs explaining here? Two similar forgeries make their way to two different countries, so what?
Let's assume for the sake of argument we have no explanation, what is it you think this means?
Why do you keep using logical fallacy like argumentum ad ignorantiam to imply or assert things from unanswered questions? It's been explained to you multiple times now that this is a logical fallacy, an irrational assertion, an invalid argument.
Do you think ignoring this fact and ranting on endlessly will change this from an irrational assertion to a valid argument, because it most certainly won't. What's more I'll never accept any argument that is demonstrably irrational, and your stock drops on here every time you're seen to do this.
@Russian Tank
Can you disprove that the Shroud is not the burial cloth of Joe Bloggs, who was crucified in Jerusalem in 60 AD?
@Sapporo,
Did he have a crown of thorns? I'm serious, actually look at some of these factors, many people just dismiss without reading about it. There is plenty of evidence it was not a painting or forgery
Dude, it is common knowledge that the mythological character of Jesus wore a crown of thorns. Any modest forgery would be sure to include that. What would be interesting is if it didn't have a crown of thorns!
@Russian Tank
Joe Bloggs of Nazareth was crucified in imitation of the manner in which Jesus was allegedly killed.
Russian-Tank "Did he have a crown of thorns? I'm serious,"
Yes, it's a well know fact that this Joe Bloggs was crucified with a crown of thorns.
"I'm serious, "
No one doubts your sincerity sadly, just your objectivity.
If jesus was crucified and he had a crown of thorns. The crown would have been removed when he was wrapped in a shroud. Usually, when people were crucified they were left to rot until the smell got so bad that they just burned the cross and dead body together. Then the burned remains would be cut down if need be and buried in a pit. NOt a burial pit but a trash heap. That was the common practice of the Romans.
BTW Many people had a crown of thorns when executed by the Romans not just jesus. Of course, there is no record of jesus existing or being executed by the Romans.
@Russian-Tank Did he have a crown of thorns?
I've attached a picture of a man wearing a crown of thorns. He's one of the religious loons who had himself crucified in the Philippines this year. His crown is made of barbed wire, but I'm sure that whoever faked the Shroud could have easily mocked up a crown of genuine thorns.
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
Russsian Tank is clearly off his rocker on this one but at least it isn't another NDE thread.
@myckob 4, I am not even necessarily saying it proves Jesus died and rose from the dead, just saying it may prove that it wasn't a painting or forgery. I'm sure if you watched what Dr. William Guy had you say you would believe it was a real person who was crucified. It doesn't prove it was necessarily supernatural, but to say it was a painting seems a bit wrong.
I watched the video and all it prove to me that:
1) Dr. Willima Guy is a crackpot.
2) If he is a doctor he should have his credentials revoked.
and
3) That YouTube needs to seriously be held responsible for this crap being propagated through their media outlet.
@mykcob4, really? Did you at least watch 5 minutes of it? I'm just curious. I think he makes some better points than most pro-shroud individuals. He does not prove Jesus rose from the dead, but he does make it seem feasible that the shroud was not painted during the middle ages. I believe it was the shroud of a real individual who died. He tries to say that crowns of thorn were a uniquely "Jesus" thing, which could in his mind prove something. He also shows that if the science is correct, the shroud may have originated from that time. He does not prove anything supernatural though. One thing that is cool is the face cloth in Spain matches Jesus' face from the shroud in Italy.
@RT
1) He ignores the science that proves the shroud came much later. Carbon dating evidence, and the fact that that weave didn't occur until the 6th century.
2) Dr. Guy also obviously has an agenda. He WANTS the shroud to be real. He didn't disprove painting at all. He just proved that he couldn't do it. In fact, I provided a video where a scientist used material from the 5th century and duplicated the Shroud exactly.
Also sometimes I take a shit and it matches jesus' face exactly. You have NO idea whose face is on that shroud!
@mykcob4, if it were somehow proven that the face cloth in Spain and the shroud in Italy both were the same face, would that prove anything to you, or would you just assume that the shroud and the cloth were made together?
@RT
What it would prove is that someone was trying to hoax people and selling a bunch of fakes. Do you think that if there was an actual shroud of jesus (which there isn't) that there would be more than one? Use your brain man. If there are more than one and they are identical then there is something fishy going on.
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