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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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"Also sometimes I take a shit and it matches jesus' face exactly. You have NO idea whose face is on that shroud!"
Now that made laugh out loud. Kudos sir...
@ Russian-Tank
"One thing that is cool is the face cloth in Spain matches Jesus' face from the shroud in Italy."
Once again, your assertions carries zero weight. How do you even know that whatever that face was, it was jesus?
Nowhere in the bible is there a physical description of jesus.
A forensic anthropologist teamed up with an Israeli archeologist and *based on science* this is the best concept of what jesus really looked like.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XhLtvYhvbsU/maxresdefault.jpg
David Killens,
"Nowhere in the bible is there a physical description of jesus."
Damnit, everyone knows what Yeshua looks like = http://www.thebricktestament.com/revelation/future_revealed_to_guy_on_ti... 9 pictures.
If he doesn't look like this he's a fake = http://www.thebricktestament.com/revelation/future_revealed_to_guy_on_ti...
Nothing in that video proves the shroud is not a forgery, the dating establishes its provenance started 1300+ years after you're claiming it was created. I watched the video, and all I saw was a christian apologists showing unabashed bias, and making extraordinary claims he could demonstrate no proper evidence for. the bets he could offer was conjecture and appeals to ignorance. The worst kind of fallacious reasoning.
Your bias has blinded you, look up argumentum ad ignorantiam and try and understand why not knowing how something happened means just that and nothing more.
@Sheldon,
how much of the video did you watch? There are segments to it, so I'm not sure you saw all of his arguments. Did you see the parts about the limestone and the blood?
No one cares what a crackpot has to say on the matter. STOP LISTENING TO CRACKPOTS. It just makes you a crackpot.
All of it, and it was unabashed biased nonsense. Nothing in it demonstrated objective evidence for anything supernatural. Limestone and blood are natural phenomena, did you not know this?
@Sheldon,
I would agree with you but still three things stand out:
1)Jerusalem limestone found on the shroud
2) the fact that the shroud and sudarium have the same facial dimensions and blood stains:
https://youtu.be/FW6tZI_KGVI
3) remants of Israeli plants and Turkish plants, as the shroud was apparently first in Israel then was in,Turkey for years too before making its way to France and Italy
Perhaps ill even grant that they could have lied about the blood being AB on both, and having stress related chemicals in it
Russian-Tank,
Perhaps you should first demonstrate that you are dealing with real facts! Can you quote any world-class scientific journals such as "Nature" or "Science"? Surely there must be some reputable history journals dealing with the Middle East. McCrone, a world-class expert in microscopic analysis, said that any claim of blood on the Shroud is bullshit! So, there's a "fact" right there that seems a little shaky. Sorry, YouTube sites are not a substitute for articles in good, refereed, scientific journals.
Heres a clue RT Italy and Europe were importing Limestone from the middle east more than a century before jesus was supposed to have been born.
You don't have ANY facts only a bunch of random data that don't prove anything.
@mykcob4, is that actually a fact that Europe imported limestone from there?
Stop making bald assertions and believing what you're told. even if all those claims were true it in no way demonstrates objective evidence for anything supernatural, why on earth would anyone believe it does?
because theist are delusional...so does he...
everybody knows it...
he thinks youtube binge has a good stuff to believe in...
very good source bruh....
Russian-Tank,
Pul-ease! Hasn't it occurred to you that the forger would have been well up on the various traditions? Of course he is not going to leave out the "evidence" for the crown of thorns!
Dr. Walter McCrone, who analyzed a number of fibers picked off of various areas of the shroud with sticky tape, firmly concluded that NO traces of real blood were detected. He was far and away a better qualified scientist than the members of the STURP group. Before the carbon-14 test settled the matter (scientifically at least), the kind of evidence that was crucial to the study had to come from good microscopy. Let me give you Dr. McCrone's credentials:
Dr. Walter McCrone was trained in chemistry, microanalysis, materials analysis, painting authentication, and chemical microscopy.
So, there you have it from a world-renown expert on such matters.
As for the pollen, may I recommend that you read McCrone's book? He has some very interesting things to say about that pollen study!
Are you saying that another carbon-14 test was done? Funny, I missed it. Maybe you could fill me in. Tell me about the safeguards taken, about which universities or institutions carried it out, where they published their findings, and give me a summary of those scientific findings. It must have been done by a creationist given the 2000-year spread!
Russian-Tank, you are starting to sound like a died-in-the-wool conspiracy theorist! "Ok, then explain the Sudarium of Oviedo!" Explain this, explain that, and this other little detail! Their calling card (and creationists too, come to think of it) is to throw out "facts" from their hand-crafted stock of challenges. If one gets answered, then they move on to the next. They are always focused on these little cracks and crevices which are blown out of proportion if they even have a factual base at all. Some of them are falsehoods made out of whole cloth.
Other "facts" get grossly twisted. And, there are always some good quotations taken out of context. In the age of Internet there is also a mountain of fake science websites that can be called upon to rebut anything at all, including a round earth! Conspiracy theorists ignore inconvenient facts or else give their standard, superficial, boiler plate responses before quickly moving on to their next challenge.
Russian-Tank, if you think we are going to rush into this choice collection of nutty websites, spending days or weeks of our lives showing why they are bankrupt, knowing that our hard work would be ignored even as our pointed criticisms already have been ignored, then you're just nuts! If I wanted to debate someone on YouTube, I'd skip the middleman--you. You came here to debate, didn't you, so don't send us off to websites. Summarize the major points of a FEW--or even one--of their best arguments and we can take it from there.
@Greensnake,
thanks for your response. It definitely made some very good points. I will look into McCrone's book. For the time being (since I don't have the book on me), would you be able to tell me anything you remember him saying about the pollen and potentially the limestone (if he brings that up)? I think that there are still a few points I wonder about (not saying that they are true, just wondering, and maybe we can address some of these)
I want to start actually with the shroud and the fact that the image on the shroud has the nails from crucifixion going through the wrists. Most pictures and paintings are depicted with Jesus having nails in his palms. This of course cannot work, it can only work if nailed through the wrists. I do not know a forger would have known it at that time. What would people say about that?
@ RT
"his of course cannot work, it can only work if nailed through the wrists. I do not know a forger would have known it at that time. What would people say about that?"
Crucifixion was still a relatively common punishment in the middle ages, in fact right up until the mid 17th Century in some parts of the world bodies were crucified on x shapes or single posts as well as crosses (which are much harder to make) .. The Nails/cords around wrists would have been witnessed by many thousands of people wherever such punishments were carried out.
I remember reading a 7th century book of punishments some years ago in the British Library or maybe the Bodleian that was basically "execution 101" for trainees. Gruesome but very exact about where to place nails/ropes for crucifixions of various types, temperature for maximum effect of hot irons, how to remove a persons intestines to inflict maximum pain but not death( immediate) etc.
The "nails through palms" was an artist convention to depict suffering (palms being much more sensitive than the wrist area).
And as Mykcob says, lay off you tube dude, or just convert to some bla blah form of christianity and leave us rational thinkers n peace with all this nonsense.
Start with trying to produce any contemporary evidence at all for the existence of a "jesus" figure as described in the gospels, any evidence of his crime, punishment and life. Anything. (Hint: there is none)
Then once that is proved you can move on to "evidence" of relics and stuff like the shroud. Which would then have some context.
@ Old man,
would two images being the same in Spain and Italy not convince you?
Post a peer reviewed article that concludes they are the same. Not a fucking youtube video from a known crackpot.
No of course not, why would it? Which is more likely two fakes produced the same time, a coincidence or a supernatural event. I'll give you a clue the last one is the least likely as no evidence can be demonstrated for it. Since the first two have the benefit of being possible why would we assume the latter without any evidence? Your using the god of the gaps argument, argumentum ad ignorantiam.
@ RT
Don't be sillier than you can help.
"The same" means? What identical? No, dated to the late 1200's yes when the art and practice of relic hunting was rife for the sale of indulgences.
Try reading some Chaucer if you want to know what indulgences were,and, how widespread the fraudulent incidence of "relics" were back then. The Church corruption and the incidence of fake relics and fraudulent activity of the Church led directly to the Lutheran movement.
There enough for you to look up and keep you quiet for a month. Come back when you have some basic knowledge.
There are several thousand copies of the "Mona Lisa" throughout the world. What does that convince you of today?
I answered your query about the variables of crucifixion, others here have demolished the other arguments. Do you have anything else?
Stop watching youtube dude, or if you do, do what we do and look up the points mentioned in that vid you linked. I would watch it for entertainment value only,. It has no scientific basis whatsoever. Each "point " he makes is either plain untrue or has been debunked.
Now, how is that search for an historical "jesus" going? That's your starting point ( Hint: you wont find evidence on Youtube)
Since the word forgery implies exact duplication no, oddly enough a duplicate copy does not convince me this is not a forgery. Especially when we have scientific evidence showing unequivocally it's a 14th century forgery, and from 3 highly reputable world famous universities at that.
Forgery
Noun
noun
the action of forging a copy or imitation of a document, signature, banknote, or work of art.
Please note the word COPY in there.
Old man shouts...,
Nice detail relating to crucifixion! Had I read your post first, I would have made excellent use of your findings.
@ Greensanke
Why thank-you! I love your posts and learn from them!
Russian-Tank,
McCrone found a great many things on his sample of Shroud fibers. He found silk, wool, linen, and cotton fibers of various colors, wax spatters, bird feather fibers, rodent hairs, mica, limestone (calcite), quartz, aragonite, starch grains (corn and wheat), pollen (averaging less than 2-3 per tape), mold spores, trichomes (leaf hairs), fly ash (from burnt oil, power plants, incinerators, and trash burning), Jeweler's rouge, paper fibers, pigments (madder, orpiment, yellow ochre, azurite), paint fragments (titanium white, ultramarine, yellow ochre), plant and insect parts, charred linen fibers, etc. (from page 85 of McCrone's "Judgement Day for the Turin Shroud").
As you can see, this guy is no slouch! He catches everything and that included at least one microscopic crystal of limestone. Much of this material, no doubt, was accrued in the years since the 14th century. My limited search of the book did not find any further discussion of limestone, which would have been at least in the index had it actually formed an important part of a serious argument. He did find many microscopic particles that are due to red orchre, a pigment used in the 14th century.
As for the pollen study, done by Max Frei, McCrone actually lists each of the species found by Frei along with a brief description, which takes a number of pages. (This is the kind of detail you get in a really good book!) There appears to have been serious inconsistencies in Frei's work:
McCrone also gives a detailed feeling for the crazy politics that were swirling around the Shroud. Truth is in the details, and you will find McCrone's details fascinating. It gives you a whole, new perspective.
Most pictures and paintings were made by artists who were concerned with their art work, not with scientific details, details that might have simply been overlooked or left out for various reasons. Did some painters depict nails through the wrists? I noticed that you used the word "most." I see no reason why this fact you mentioned would be beyond the grasp of an astute, 14th century faker. Moreover, the faker only had two choices, and to put so much weight on his choice is unjustified speculation.
Look at it on the bright side. Even if you have to admit that the Shroud is a fake, that only eliminates that one piece of evidence.
@Greensnake,
thanks very much for your time and your reply! I am starting to lose confidence in the shroud. I am going to give McCrone more of a read. I also agree with many that even if the shroud was real, it wouldn't mean supernatural.
what a retarded post
When is this zombie going to finally rot away?
@Orignal post
The only things the shroud proves is:
1. How gullible some people are, that will believe wild and extraordinary claims w/o examining all the evidence available.
2. How desperate some people are to try to prove their god, (or son of god,) existence... An old cloth with a face imprint of a person similar to art of some important religious figure to them? Really? That is the best an entire powerful ancient religion with a supposed "god" behind it can come up with? How are people that follow these religions not deeply embarrassed by this? Can you even begin to imagine if the only "proof" for evolution was one small piece of cloth that is kept under lock and key by rich evolutionist that profited greatly off their "theory," that no one else can examine properly? People that believe in evolution would be rightfully laughing stocks ridiculed at large, a bit like flat earthers are, if they presented evidence like the shroud of turin.
The shroud of Turin is a piece of cloth that has a picture of a man who appears to have suffered from a Roman crucifixion. It is intended to showcase evidence of the divine by playing upon human ignorance, gullibility and superstition.
It is decaying at an accelerated rate and requires the assistance of technology in a special gas chamber to preserve it - hardly the work of anything divine - and its origins are highly questionable as is the image of the man.
From this image on the decaying cloth, one is supposed to leap to the conclusion that it is an image of Jesus himself and that the body that was wrapped in it suddenly resurrected and performed all of the things that are written in the New Testament.
Any methods to duplicate it must be suppressed such as this one:
How to Make Your Own Shroud of Turin Using Medieval Technology
http://gizmodo.com/5375303/how-to-make-your-own-shroud-of-turin
and any tests that date it to the Medieval period must be rejected at all costs such as this one:
Deep secondary analysis of the Shroud proves it is a Medieval forgery:
http://llanoestacado.org/freeinquiry/skeptic/shroud/as/mccrone.html
The use of physical tangible objects such as the shroud of Turin for proof of the divine is a common practice of those aching to vindicate their empty claims of the supernatural. Other objects that were commonly used to substantiate a religious belief were meteorites, large trees, tall mountains, amulets, idols, statues, altars, volcanoes, storms, eclipse, and human beings who rose to great power, accomplished great feats of heroism or acquired great fame in history.
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