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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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I've studied Talmud for years, I can't recall such a statement. Where would that be by any chance?
I will be honest, there were no tactics employed to refute your claims my friend, it was just very easy to do!
Unfortunately I feel you are desperately clinging to your faith! You have came on to an atheist forum and offered no hard evidence!
The number of logical fallacies commited has been quite astonishing, albeit with at least a better level of arctiulation from the original poster. However you are now commuting yet another, that of shifting the burden of proof.
Why should we just simply accept your premise? Why should we do the homework? It is on you to provide the extraordinary evidence and I would feel fairly confident that you cannot do it.
If there was any reasonable evidence, would there even be atheism? I propose that if there was any strong evidence to back your claim then atheism would be no more then a perfect sect like flat earthers.
I feel confident in saying that this is why so many people are leaving their faiths and identify as non religious, especially in western cultures.
The numbers are quite staggering, in areas of the world where evidence and fact are considered important, religiosity is regressing.
This link should help you with some Jewish history (of which it seems you are lacking):
http://www.judaicaplace.com/jewish-history-a-trilogy/9781422615119/?gcli...
Jewish History A Trilogy 3 Volume Set for $71.99. Why would I buy jewish history books? Do you make some money for each sell?
I was kidding, my point was that those trying to debunk my proof should first learn Jewish history..! He was complaining that I haven't provided sources - so I'm showing him the sources.
PJb .....
Surely you've missed a point.....
The Deuteronomy prophesies you cling to ...are merely just another attempt by the Yahwist /Temple authorities to impose monotheism on the ,somewhat, reticent populace.
After all look at the events.... Israel (northern kingdom) is defeated by the Assyrians.... population taken into the Assyrian Captivity....thus the temple needs to explain why the "chosen people " don't seem to have the promised help from their God.
So a Book of Law (possibly the complete Deuteronomy or perhaps just a part of it) is suddenly(some might say conveniently) found ( during works in the temple) revealing that the Hebrews have not been following the correct laws...and must refrain from worshiping any god other than Yahweh ....
This will reinforce the Temples/Royal authority .... at least the claimed authority..... but with the northern cult centres now "gone"...there is a lot up for grabs....
Fairly obvious power grab by the Yahwist temple authorities...exploiting the king (Josiah) who was orphaned and raised by the Yahwist priests.
This is pretty much the standard "Do as I say or else"... and look what happened to Israel ,who didn't obey.
The true significance of Deuteronomy is that it is part of an unsuccessful push for a monotheist culture in Judah (southern Kingdom).
The evidence implies quiet differently than your assertion:
They weren't a nation from "afar" and certainly not "from the end of the earth". They were definitely a nation known to them and their ancestors, having been a direct neighbour and homeland of Abraham when his family settled in the city of Haran. Also, no slaves were sold to Egypt at that time. The dispersion spoken of throughout the chapter is non-existent by the Assyrian exile model as they were all sent to Assyria as the very verses recording the narrative relate.
@PJb..
"The evidence implies quiet differently than your assertion:"
Now ,there you see .... just there ...."The evidence..."
There is no "evidence".... what you have.....ALL that you have is the Torah narrative.
And I'm afraid you cannot use the Torah to prove the Torah. It doesn't work like that.
"They weren't a nation from "afar" and certainly not "from the end of the earth". "
Posibly .... its only 900 Km. from Harran to Jerusalem. Although ,of course ,the Assyrians territories were much closer to Israel that to Judah.
But distance is a relative concept in an age where journeys were measured in weeks and months.
Now here again... you are sliding into the realm of "fable".
"They were definitely a nation known to them and their ancestors, having been a direct neighbour and homeland of Abraham
when his family settled in the city of Haran. "
Another story from the Torah.... there is NO evidence for the existence of Abraham....
indeed his story line has all the classic hall marks of a mythological character.
Homeless wanderer ,wonder worker , great age...etc.etc.
"Also, no slaves were sold to Egypt at that time."
And yet another reference to another Torah myth.... this time the tales of Moses
and yet again there is NO evidence for Hebrew slaves in Egypt nor indeed for Moses.
And then...
"The dispersion spoken of throughout the chapter is non-existent by the Assyrian exile model
as they were all sent to Assyria as the very verses recording the narrative relate."
""The dispersion spoken of throughout the chapter is non-existent by the Assyrian exile model "
How so ??
You even say it yourself...." they were all sent to Assyria" .... ALL sent to Assyria...
an exile so total that the Nation of Israel ceased to exist .... gone. Just like that.
And all written into the "lost book " of the law ,in order to form the foundation of a Yahwist nation....
whose kings would listen only to the temple priests... under threat of these dire threats.....
see...do what I say OR ELSE.
"And I'm afraid you cannot use the Torah to prove the Torah. It doesn't work like that."
Apparently, you're not understanding your very own argument. You suggested that it's not prophecy of the future but recording of past history - the Assyrian exile. Meaning, the authors want to portray this description of a national destruction and exile etc to parallel what actually happened at the Assyrian exile. Now, the very recording of the Assyrian exile explains certain parts which cannot match the Deuteronomy 28 description.
"Posibly .... its only 900 Km. from Harran to Jerusalem. Although ,of course ,the Assyrians territories were much closer to Israel that to Judah.
But distance is a relative concept in an age where journeys were measured in weeks and months."
If the Torah would describe that a nation is going to come... It by default means that it is either any immediate neighbors to Israel or further. Now, for some reason the Torah found it necessary to add that it's not just a nation but a nation from afar, and not only from afar but from the end of the earth...
"Another story from the Torah.... there is NO evidence for the existence of Abraham....
indeed his story line has all the classic hall marks of a mythological character.
Homeless wanderer ,wonder worker , great age...etc.etc."
The authors and the people they're catering to do believe in the story, thus they wouldn't write a nation unknown to you and your father's... A parable is of a novel fiction book who's end would obviously want to match the beginning. So I'm not saying that the story of Abraham happened, all I was saying is that the very book that believes that that story happened also says that the exile is by a nation that was unknown to our ancestors...
"""The dispersion spoken of throughout the chapter is non-existent by the Assyrian exile model "
How so ??"
Dispersion means that they are spread around the WORLD. As many verses imply. See beginning of chapter 30 of deuteronomy where this dispersion is spoken of as being from the corners if the earth. There are other verses as well that I don't have off hand.
"You even say it yourself...." they were all sent to Assyria" .... ALL sent to Assyria...
an exile so total that the Nation of Israel ceased to exist .... gone. Just like that."
Plz clarify what you're saying.
@PJb...
To clarify.....
The nation of Israel was absorbed into the Assyrian Empires Territories (subject nations) ... it is only in this exile that Jews were "serving other gods"... during the Babylonian exile they famously "remembered Zion".... and of course the Roman diaspora did not affect the Jews adherence to Judaism ...
Thus ,only the (already past) events of the Assyrian Exile actually match the "supposed" prophesy.
You've yet to explain how the Assyrian exile fits the descriptions I mentioned above. Also, the Roman exile also fits the description of serving other gods etc. All the forced conversions etc. Many Jews were baptized...
@PJb....
Well ... with respect to the "serving of other gods".... The exiled Israelites were ,as I'm sure you are aware, absorbed into the Assyrian mainstream population ... in effect disappearing from history..... (the Lost Tribes...come on...you know.) although some of the population from the Northern Kingdom did eventually turn up in Judah ... oddly enough the Judeans weren't too pleased to have them... but that ,I suspect ,is another debate.
Now I have to ask .... you say ,"the Roman exile also fits the description of serving other gods etc. All the forced conversions etc. Many Jews were baptized..."
Perhaps you'd provide a little more detail on this.....
I have a small difficulty seeing how pagan Romans would have baptised any one.... particularly as Rome did not become Christian until 380 ad... some 250 ish years after the expulsion from Jerusalem and the beginning of the diaspora .
The chapter says that in their exiled lands they will serve other gods. This was fulfilled all throughout the exile. Practically every country/nation the Jews bumped into forced the Jews to convert or be expelled. Many Jews sadly converted. Not necessarily did this happen specifically with the Roman empire, it's just that the past 2,000 years of exile is called "Roman exile" bc it began with them.
Well said watchman!
Also Proud Jewish Boy, I'm sorry but you offered now evidence, so there was no evidence to be debunked by myself.
Your made appeals to religion as all theists do and could only site biblical anecdotes as your 'evidence'... basically everything revolved around little anecdotes in ancient scripture not confirmed by any scripture from other groups.
Now allow me put an analogy to you, you are on trial for murder and a quilty verdict means certain death... and the prosecution claimed they had evidence that you commited the crime from an old book that had prophecies such as claiming 'a man will kill a women on a certain day' and other vague accounts that could mean or refer to anything.
Furthermore, there were no other books that ratify this exact claim!
Should you be found guilty? Is this meeting the burden of evidence?
It really is simple.
I will illustrate with a short paragraph or two.
My unicorn rainbow farting god is real. My evidence? The unicorn rainbow farting god had a special book written that is the word of this god. This book I am referencing, was written 2000 years ago. In this book it predicted that there will be a new continent discovered in a far away land across a great ocean. People from this place will go on to conqueror and take over that land and eventually they will form a country in the middle of that land called "United States."
This special 2000 year old book written to be the unicorn rainbow farting god's words, also predicts that a man born on an island that is part of this country that has darker skin will be president in what is commonly accepted as year 2008, He will be the first non white president of this land called United States in this new continent discovered on the other side of a vast ocean.
-
See? What an amazing accurate prediction! It proves that my unicorn rainbow farting god is real!
Do not believe me? Why not?
Not a single scholar would argue that Deuteronomy was written from after 2,000 years ago. The dead sea scrolls, for example, contain Deuteronomy 28
What is your definition of a scholar? I would consider myself a scholar, I argue it is very possible that Deuteronomy was written less than 2000 years ago.
Until respected top scientist in the field can take these scrolls, the ink on them, and date them using the best technologies available today, they could just be 1000 years old for all I know, they could just look old and be only a few hundred years old. Without careful study using equipment, we just have to take people's word for it that they are 2000+ years old.
Once we verify the age beyond "taking people's word for it" we can then bring in neutral top translators working with teams of archaeologists and neutral historians to verify what the scrolls say.
Back to my example: I say I am a scholar and I say the book about rainbow farting unicorn god is 2000+ years old, I say not a single scholar would argue that this special RFU god book is not at least 2000 years old.
How would you disprove that? Not by saying "not a single scholar would argue blah blah blah"
This is why we demand EVIDENCE not just "taking peoples word for it" or expressing unprovable generalities like "not a single scholar..."
Dude, you're far from a scholar - are you seriously arguing with even CRITICAL ATHEIST SCIENTISTS?!
Perhaps this article should help as a source for you :
http://www.deadseascrolls.org.il/learn-about-the-scrolls/languages-and-s...
How do you know I am not a scholar? You do not even know my name or what town I live in. Do you have magical powers?
.
Also, you are going to try to sell me that "Israel Antiquities Authority" are critical atheist scientist? The article you linked did not have a single citation linked to it. Sorry, if you want me to believe your god is real, you are going to need lots of good citations from well known top scientist in their fields that are properly neutral on the subject. (They do not have to be atheist to be neutral.)
Well if you feel comfortable enough to argue with the entire world and all historians that the dead sea scrolls are not 2,000 years old - I'm forced to end this discussion with you. This is precisely how I know you're not a scholar..
Everyone in the world, and all historians say the scrolls are at least 2000 years old? How do you know that? More magical power?
I can force you to end an anonymous conversation on these atheist boards? I doubt it. You just do not want to converse with me anymore, I am guessing because you strongly disagree with me. Are you upset? Why? Perhaps examine why this conversation upsets you? Perhaps there is a part of you that may agree with me to question the authenticity of the dead sea scrolls as a bedrock of your faith?
I do understand upending your entire worldview is incredibly scary and difficult to contemplate. What is on the other side? Will you be okay if you change it? You do not know yet. Fear of the unknown is very real thing we all go through.
.
.
I will happily accept that I do not fit your definition of a scholar, Apparently a scholar is anyone that agrees/confirms your world view, I take that as an honor that I am not your definition of a scholar.
Type in the following words on Google:
Dead sea scrolls
Tell me if you see any controversy on the date of those scrolls if it's older than 2,000 years old. Something tells me you won't.
I'm happy to continue the conversation if only you would start talking logical. Stop arguing with all historians.
I did what you said and poked around a bit on a google search, the parchments and other materials age does not seem to have much controversy around them. They are all around 2000 years old give or take a century or 2. I did not see anything about age testing the ink written on them, but I assume I cannot be the first to wonder about the age of the ink/writing base and if controversy was found there I can only imagine I would saw discussion of it.
I give you step 1, the scrolls are likely to be around 2000 years old. I am interested, my initial idea that the age was not acceptably verified is likely wrong, what else about my assumptions are wrong? I follow evidence and logic, if it leads to your posting to be true I am fine with that. The next step, is does it say of the prophecies on one of the age verified scrolls? Is it translated and interpreted correctly? What exactly was the prophecy? How likely is it that no one could of possibly guessed correctly in writing the prophecies?
If all that works out, then we start to look at what such a verified prophecy means, does it prove your god? A different god? This is a debate and research idea I am always interested in doing. Following the evidence.
LogicForTW,
Have you ever read the Talmud? It's the most convoluted poorly written piece of garbage you will probably ever see. It makes you think that you can't read English. So unless the Dead Sea scrolls are very similar in style to the Talmud they are almost certain to be fakes. And if they flow like the Bible they are fakes without a doubt. That's because the Bible was written by English story tellers and not First Century Middle Eastern Jews.
Nope, I have read some things similar to: Cliffs notes on it, and people's interpretations of it, (both theist and atheist.) It is easy to look up databases on the net on it. But I am not going to slog through the standard english translation of Talmud most of that particular group read. Unless I need material to quickly doze off to.
I can count on theist arguing for their religion to try to point out what they consider the best parts of it are, and I can then simply find out for myself if that particular part is relevant or not. Kind of like this "proof" listed in the OP. I find my usual answer, however, nothing actually substantiated by proper investigative work that needs to be done for such an enormous and fanciful claim.
I done way too much schooling to simply take a book's word for it with no real world evidence. For instance in calculus, I learned techniques to calculate complex 3d shapes created by spinning a unique shape on a lathe, I can calculate how much volume the object created has in math using calculus tools, and then verify my answer after all that reading and learning by simple water displacement to verify my calculations. You cannot do the same with religious books.
Proud Jewish boy,
Dead Sea scrolls = Fakes, every one of them.
Are you suggesting that they are a forgery?
Your citing a source with a conformational bias to your assertion, do you have any credible evidence? Perhaps a link to a peer reviewed paper stating that these documents have been dated using advanced technologies we have available today.
You put up a great fight pal, but essentially you tend to just run with the same theistic approach of that your book confirms things without any substantial support from other sources.
http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/6-things-you-may-not-know-abou...
But jews have been doing rather well in their exile - many today are totally happy, free and assimilated and not hampered by any prophesies at all..
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