Proof for the Torah

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chimp3's picture
PJB: "Your life is based off

PJB: "Your life is based off fantasies, that we once came from monkeys. In fact you're so proud of your mystery that that's your proud profile picture."

You are correct! Proud to be a primate. You are one too. That is why you have nipples and pubic hair like your mother. Heredity, not because you have a special place in nature. You can rest easy in your fantasy but you are unsuccessful into luring anyone from this forum into your millenniums old sleep.

xenoview's picture
You speak of a messiah, when

You speak of a messiah, when will he come? So you approve of slavery? Your god approves of slavery, mass murder, and rape.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
The messiah will come when

The messiah will come when the world is ready for him. As I said, no one will be forced to do anything beyond their will when the messiah will come, rather the Jews will serve the Lord out of their natural will and the gentiles will also be willing to contribute to the service of the Lord by helping the Jews learn and pray etc.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Oh, and yes I wouldn't mind

Oh, and yes I wouldn't mind having the antisemites of the past and present who murdered and persecuted my nation to serve me and those who they persecuted when the messiah comes. I wouldn't mind if they would be treated like actual slaves..

xenoview's picture
So your no better than your

So your no better than your god, because you condone slavery. Do you condone mass murder and rape like your god does?

xenoview's picture
Slavery is not willing to

Slavery is not willing to serve. Do you approve of slavery? Your god approves of slavery.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Better called servants than

Better called servants than slaves

algebe's picture
@PJB: "Better called servants

@PJB: "Better called servants than slaves"

Hagar was Sarah's slave when she gave her to Abraham for sex. Later Abraham abandoned Hagar and Ishmael, his own son, in the desert. How do you view the morality of that story?

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Let's not even get into a

Let's not even get into a discussion of the particular story. Because let's back up a step. Who said she did the right thing? It is merely a storyline - Not a commandment!

LogicFTW's picture
"It is merely a storyline."

"It is merely a storyline."

I agree!

How do you separate out the story in your bible from "non story", or.. nonfiction? There is no: "hey guys, this part of the book is story time!" markers in the book.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
It's a TRUE storyline. Not

It's a TRUE storyline. Not novels

LogicFTW's picture
Then I say: "So all the of

Then I say: "So all the of your holy book is 100% true?"

You probably say "yes"

Then I point out a couple of glaring contradictions.

Then you say I am interpreting them wrong.

I say if it is open to interpretation how do we know which interpretation is the right one?

You say it is something along the lines of "religious scholars point us the right way, religious leaders can interpret for us." The holy book is not perfect etc.

Then we are back to: "I agree," the book is not perfect, it is open to interpretation, and the one many readers settle upon are the religious leaders that collect lots of money and power pushing their religion.

.
.
There I saved us some discussion :)

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Actually, there was and is an

Actually, there was and is an oral tradition that interprets most the Torah. This oral Torah is mostly presented in the Talmud. This oral Torah originated from Sinai and came along together with the written Torah.

LogicFTW's picture
Cool, would you agree

Cool, would you agree information passed along from person to person orally is even more likely to get some of the details wrong compared to written word? To embellish certain things and neglect others?

I certainly experienced stories, ideas, concepts passed by word of mouth rather than the written word more easily getting the details wrong, humans do not have perfect recall of memory.

algebe's picture
@PJB: "Who said she did the

@PJB: "Who said she did the right thing?"

She? You mean Sarah? I think Abraham was also part of the "storyline". He had sex with his wife's slave and made her pregnant. Later he abandoned Hagar and her child Ishmael in the desert to die.

Actually god said Sarah did the right thing, since he rewarded her by allowing her to become pregnant in her 90s. So what's the moral lesson here? And why is this piece of fiction even in the Bible/Talmud? Why do Jews and Muslims revere Abraham?

I think the consensus of archaeologists and historians today is that Abraham never existed. What's your opinion on that?

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Here's what Ramban (a famous

Here's what Ramban (a famous Jewish commentator and rabbi of the thirteenth century) says about this incident:
And Sarai oppressed her and she fled from her presence: Our mother sinned in this oppression, and also Abraham in permitting her to do so. And Hashem heard her [Hagar's] oppression and gave her a son who would be a wild ass of a man to oppress the descendants of Abraham and Sarah in all kinds of oppression.

I firmly believe that Abraham did live as a real historical figure. It is impossible for historians to say that he didn't exist. How in the world can they know if an individual lived thousands of years ago? He wasn't a king who is expected to be recorded in other places etc.

algebe's picture
Proud Jewish Boy:

Proud Jewish Boy:

Ramban condemned the actions of Sarai and Abraham in the 13th century. What does the Talmud/Old Testament say about this incident? Are the actions of Abraham and Sarai specifically condemned or rewarded?

I guess one of the things that make me skeptical about the Abraham story is the ages of the characters. Abraham's father Terah died aged 205, and Abraham lived to 175. That suggests later scribes making up stories and geneaologies and using extended lifespans to fill in the gaps.

Sky Pilot's picture
Proud Jewish boy,

Proud Jewish boy,

You are simply too funny! Your comments are hilarious. Thanks for the laughs.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
I know, I'm a stand up

I know, I'm a stand up comedian. Thank you for flattering me...

Sky Pilot's picture
Proud Jewish boy,

Proud Jewish boy,

Are there any ideas expressed in the Babylonian Talmud that you find reprehensible enough to reject? Do you approve of all of the stories in the Torah and want to copy them in your daily life?

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Certain stories are

Certain stories are applicable only to certain circumstances. But overall yes.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
What type of stories in the

What type of stories in the Talmud are you referring to?

Sky Pilot's picture
Proud Jewish boy,

Proud Jewish boy,

The honor killings, mass murders, looting, incest, adultery, etc., Basically every story. The creep Judah forced his daughter-in-law into a marriage with his toddler son, ended up screwing her, and wanted to burn her alive before he found out that she was pregnant with his child. The crazy old coot spent his life lying, stealing, and killing while screwing his sister for decades and finally knocked her up. He threw his first son and the boy's mother out into the desert with a bag of water and a piece of bread between them. He was a real bastard and then tried to kill the kid he had with his sister. And he had a fetish about guys' foreskins. He was a rotten person to the core.

That's in the Bible.

In the Talmud there are stories about how Adam and Yeshua had sex with animals. And there are whole sections on how it's OK for guys to trade off their toddlers for sex with other old buzzards as soon as the kids reach three years and a day old. And don't forget the parts about how it's good to lie, cheat, kill, and generally abuse Gentiles. It's a truly disgusting book but it's the standard that Jews are supposed to follow. If they don't they are considered heretics.

LogicFTW's picture
The world is 4.5 billion

The world is 4.5 billion years old, the likelihood that the world will be ready in my lifetime, or that of anyone I know, just from pure numbers is 1 in 100 million or so? Not much point in getting ready for this messiah to show up.

Course I do not believe in any sort of god or messiah either.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Everyone is gonna go to

Everyone is gonna go to heaven one day, so start preparing for that

LogicFTW's picture
Everyone? All 7+ billion of

Everyone? All 7+ billion of us alive today, and the 100+ billion that are already dead are in heaven? Sounds crowded.

Also if we are all going to heaven, what is the point of following a religion? There is no unique reward in this life for following your particular brand of religion, and, we supposedly all get in heaven in the afterlife according to you.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Heaven is a place where there

Heaven is a place where there is both negative and primarily positive. Even in the positive itself there are many many levels, according to the Jewish tradition. Your location in heaven is dependant on your actions in this world

LogicFTW's picture
I have never intentionally

I have never intentionally hurt someone, never killed anyone, I think I live fairly humble.

I feel I created my own heaven here on earth, enjoying life and all it has to offer without getting focused on wealth, power and possessions, but instead experiences, loving family and friends and so on. I also built this life using lots of good logic and reasoning, the same tools that point me strongly away from any organized religion. So since I think your god is extremely unlikely to the point it is laughable to even consider it as a real possibility, I suppose I am near the bottom of the locations in heaven. Fine by me, especially considering I do not believe it to be an at all likely possibility.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
"I have never intentionally

"I have never intentionally hurt someone, never killed anyone, I think I live fairly humble."

That's very good, hopefully you'll get rewarded well for that in the world to come.

Sky Pilot's picture
According to the Talmud the

According to the Talmud the Jewish people themselves are the messiah.

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