Proof for the Torah

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CyberLN's picture
In other words, you have

In other words, you have nothing to back this up.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
I don't know about you, but

I don't know about you, but the vast majority of the world educates their children to be like them. If you disagree, then it's time you leave your cave.

CyberLN's picture
Oh my, a cave...quite an

Oh my, a cave...quite an impressive volley there!

Many parents do indeed educate heir children that way. It amuses me that you seem to think that all those children actually pick up all of those yokes handed them by their parents. If all human children grew up to precisely mimic their parents, don't you suppose there would be a vastly reduced number of variations in human thought and behavior than we seem to have?

Proud Jewish boy's picture
In the Muslim world where

In the Muslim world where there's no educational freedom and democracy, the vast majority of Muslims are bound to accept what their parents give them.

CyberLN's picture
You are pretty darn good at

You are pretty darn good at responding to a question without answering it :)

algebe's picture
@PJB: "the vast majority of

@PJB: "the vast majority of Muslims are bound to accept what their parents give them."

You seem to think that modern terrorism was invented by Muslims.

Alan Travis's picture
"In other words," you pull

"In other words," you pull anything you wish out of your atheist rhetoric and then prance on as smugly, as condescendingly, and as arrogantly as ever. No, he propounded more than enough reason and fact, but as always, you atheists don't give a damn about facts and reason. You have your evil dogma and that is the end of it.

algebe's picture
PHB: "It is a logical

PHB: "It is a logical assumption that says that MOST of the children will be terrorists."

No. It's a naive assumption. Terrorist groups radicalize children by targeting the natural confusion and rebellion experienced by children during adolescence. They prey on this vulnerability, using techniques similar to the grooming methods employed by predatory pedophiles. It's pure evil. Some parents are directly involved. Most know nothing until the police knock on their door with the worst possible news.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
I'm talking about the child

I'm talking about the child of the actual terrorist

MCDennis's picture
Heheheheh...I don't give a

Heheheheh...I don't give a shit about what the holy babble says but in the OT, god murdered a whole world including almost all of the animals. Then god arranged for the murder of people including the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, and the good folks of Jeriko. God murdered a guy for touching his ark, and God murdered Ammonites in Jericho, and god murdered the babies in Egypt because he was pissed at the Pharoah, and god murdered everybody in Soddom and Gemorrah. He murdered Lot's wife, all the Midianites except he saved saved the virgin females for raping so ... go god.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Take a look at thread "8th

Take a look at thread "8th day circumcision" for the answer to your question

watchman's picture
PJB ....

PJB ....

"It predicts the long exile of the Jewish people, a history unparalleled (and thus unpredictable) by any other nation."

Unparalleled ...?

Not so.....Crimean Tartars 1944.
Chagos islanders 1968

so not an exclusively Hebrew phenomena...

Proud Jewish boy's picture
The exile is indeed not

The exile is indeed not exclusive to the Jews, but the remainder of prophecies are.
Also, it's important to realize that predicting a few million specific people will get exiled is far greater of a leap in nature then predicting that a mere 23,000 will be exiled (which is far easier).
But more importantly, even if exile to full nations has occurred in history (it did a handful of times), that wouldn't make you comfortable enough to suggest that the entire Florida will be exiled. Exile does happen rarely, but it's too would to predict - and get it right!

algebe's picture
Don't forget the "Trail of

Don't forget the "Trail of Tears" and the Huguenot exodus from France.

mykcob4's picture
Yeah right, and Edgar Cayce

Yeah right, and Edgar Cayce wasn't a nut case either. Every single prediction made has been purposely vague and fits many time periods and events. Harry Houdini spent the latter half of his career exposing people that claimed they had "the gift." James Randi was very successful exposing fakes and people that made predictions. All predictions fit a pattern of vagueness. The torah is no different. You may as well believe in scientology or the book of mormons, they do exactly the same thing.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Perhaps I need to explain

Perhaps I need to explain what predictions I'm referring to:

1) DESTRUCTION: It indeed came about in the year 69 A.C.E. when the Romans invaded the land. Josephus describes at length this invasion and destruction. It was a ruthless one, killing at least 2 million Jews. [Interestingly enough, the Torah describes "The Lord will lift against you a nation from afar, from the end of the earth" - this was indeed the case with Rome which came from afar. The verse finishes off “as an eagle will swoop" - this is possibly hinting to the famous golden eagle replicas the Roman legions would raise in battle. Another verse says it will be "a nation unknown to you and your fathers". This was a great description for Rome which was a new Empire that hadn't existed up until right before their invasion of the Land (which began some years before the final destruction along with the Temple). It was a nation unheard of in history before its establishment at that time when a few tribes combined to form Rome. Another description is that its language would be unknown to the Jews, something which also turned out as predicted, as the Roman language, Latin was unknown to the East.] This is no(t such an) amusement of its own but is a lead-up to the upcoming surprises.
2) EXILE: Destruction is natural, all throughout human history. What about exile? Also somewhat common. How about a full nation being exiled? Now that's rare. It has only happened to a handful of nations. Surprisingly, one of these rare full nations were the Jews, and the Torah predicted it! But let's take it even further:
3) DISPERSION: Whenever people are exiled they are settled in one place. The Jews, however, have an interesting one; they are dispersed in the four corners of the earth! To which other nation did this happen to? Not in any history records.
4) PERSECUTION: The Torah describes our troubles in exile. There's no need to specify here, for you can open up any Jewish-history book and see how clearly this prophecy was fulfilled.
5) FEW IN NUMBER: The Jews were small in number up until about recent times. Even now we are relatively small (both relative to what we could/should have been without the exile and relative in comparison to other nations and religions).
6) IDENTITY: Whenever people are exiled, they assimilate – immediately. After all, it's only natural that you blend into your society. Something very strange was predicted and indeed happened to the Jews - they kept their Jewish identity for 2,000 years! While being exiled (prediction 2)! Dispersed throughout the whole world (prediction 3)! And under constant persecution (prediction 4)! And while being few in number (prediction 5)! Nature simply colliding with itself!
7) TORAH: "For it (Torah) shall not be forgotten from your descendants" . Torah was indeed preserved (to the exact version) throughout all the exile. Each Jewish community, from all corners of the world, all coming out with the same Torah. Our Torah is the same as the ones found in the Dead Sea Scrolls dated to 2,000 years ago (at length in subchapter “Accuracy of the Torah Text”). Our Torah survived the 2,000 years of persecution! How can a nation which is exiled, dispersed, few in number and under constant persecution preserve their writings?
8) AGRICULTURE: Israel was once a fertile power-house, as described numerously in the Torah, nicknamed "the land of milk and honey". Josephus also attests to this fertility of Israel at his times in his writings. Archaeology as well approves this, Israel once being part of "the Fertile Crescent". After the Jews left, however, things clearly changed, the once lush-green forest covered mountains are now desert or swamp; a desolate land indeed. Ever-since, no nationality took hold of any part of Israel, as the agriculture was very un-sustaining for the residence. Only a very minor population of mixed-multitudes took haven in Israel ; the once fought-over land was now a mere bridge for the continents. Mark Twain [a non-Jew and self-proclaimed agnostic was a famous writer. He] wrote after his visit to the Holy Land (in 1899) "It's like a land waiting for the return of its people".
9) RETURN: The return of the Jews to Israel - their homeland is the beginning of the fulfillment of a prophecy foretold long ago. We have indeed seen a taste of this recently as millions of Jews rose to the Holy Land, to reclaim it once more. Of course, this doesn't mean that the redemption began (for the Messiah is needed for that), but that we're seeing a taste (for most of the Jews are still not in Israel) of the ultimate completion of the return of the captives to Israel, right before it actually happens in completeness upon the arrival of the Messiah. The world was so shocked that a nation exiled, dispersed, and tortured for 2,000 years has managed to finally return to their land they for so long longed-for. They should have been shocked 3,300 years ago when it was prophesied.

Sky Pilot's picture
Proud Jewish boy,

Proud Jewish boy,

It's not wise to trust Jewish numbers in the Bible or in the Talmud. They exaggerate like crazy. In the Talmud Gittin 57b it says that the Romans killed 4,000,000,000 people in the city of Bethar. In Gittin 58a it claims that the Romans wrapped 64 million Jewish kids in scrolls and burned them alive.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
What you say is true. I

What you say is true. I indeed recognize the crazy numbers as exaggerations. It is very clear that the Talmud exaggerates on it's numbers. The rabbis are of the same opinion as you and I.

MCDennis's picture
So a book inspired by god was

So a book inspired by god was wrong? That doesn't seem likely.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
I don't know why you call it

I don't know why you call it wrong. Just like you have a right to exaggerate in numbers (as we so frequently do), so does the Talmud possess that same right

Nyarlathotep's picture
Proud Jewish boy - Our Torah

Proud Jewish boy - Our Torah is the same as the ones found in the Dead Sea Scrolls dated to 2,000 years ago

That is demonstrably false:

Oxford Companion to Archaeology - ..Hebrew text of the Old Testament; some manuscripts, especially the books of Exodus and Samuel, found in Cave Four, exhibit dramatic differences in both language and content.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
You totally missed the point.

You totally missed the point. I was saying that Deuteronomy 28 was around before the prophecies actually unfolded.
Btw, now that you bring it up, we can briefly discuss it.
95% of the content of the dead sea scrolls were found to be the same as the modern mosaic Torah. Most of those differences were clearly spelling variations and obvious pen slips.

Nyarlathotep's picture
So whom should I believe?

So whom should I believe?

Proud Jewish boy - Most of those differences were clearly spelling variations and obvious pen slips

Oxford Companion to Archaeology - dramatic differences in both language and content

Sorry, I don't believe you.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
Here's what I read on this

Here's what I read on this website (amongst others):

A significant comparison study was conducted with the Isaiah Scroll written around 100 B.C. that was found among the Dead Sea documents and the book of Isaiah found in the Masoretic text. After much research, scholars found that the two texts were practically identical. Most variants were minor spelling differences, and none affected the meaning of the text.

One of the most respected Old Testament scholars, the late Gleason Archer, examined the two Isaiah scrolls found in Cave 1 and wrote, “Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier than the oldest dated manuscript previously known (A.D. 980), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The five percent of variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling.”{7}

{7}. Archer, 25.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Proud Jewish boy - comparison

Proud Jewish boy - comparison study was conducted with the Isaiah Scroll...the book of Isaiah found in the Masoretic text...examined the two Isaiah scrolls ...

Your claim was about the Torah; what I cited was about the Torah (Exodus to be specific). I shouldn't have to tell you this, but the book of Isaiah is not part of the Torah. Please address my very specific academic citation, that says the Exodus fragments found in cave 4 exhibits dramatic differences in both language and content.

Proud Jewish boy's picture
If anyone is able to refute

If anyone is able to refute this proof for the authenticity of the Torah, then I give my word, I'll drop my belief in Judaism. Mark my word, and give it a try, I love logic - something you atheists also claim to use.

MCDennis's picture
What do you mean by

What do you mean by authenticity?

Alan Travis's picture
Dear Jewish Boy, cast not

Dear Jewish Boy, cast not pearls before swine.

Go from the presence of a foolish man.

Answer not a fool according to his folly.

Atheists do not debate, they blather rhetoric, relentlessly, hatefully.

The "logic" they claim is belied by their anger and nonsense, e.g. "Nothing made the Multiverse and anyone who thinks differently is stupid and anti-science."

CyberLN's picture
All people considered atheist

All people considered atheist do this?

Daniel's picture
PJB, Diotrephes has presented

PJB, Diotrephes has presented an example that refutes the authenticity of the Torah. I hope to hear that you can defend against this example or that you are no longer a Jew.


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