This is for theists.
How do you define murder?
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You take out a dictionary and look up the definition.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
"the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer"
synonyms: killing, homicide, assassination, liquidation, extermination, execution, slaughter, butchery, massacre; More
verb
1.
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.
"somebody tried to murder Joe"
synonyms: kill, put to death, assassinate, execute, liquidate, eliminate, dispatch, butcher, slaughter, massacre, wipe out; More
How would you do it???
*Hands up...breathless, stretching for the sky...sir sir, pick me pick me*
Like what Cog said..the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
"the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer"
synonyms: killing, homicide, assassination, liquidation, extermination, execution, slaughter, butchery, massacre; More
verb
1.
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.
"somebody tried to murder Joe"
synonyms: kill, put to death, assassinate, execute, liquidate, eliminate, dispatch, butcher, slaughter, massacre, wipe out;
But with this codicil...If God decides to kill directly, its ok, if god decides to murder, genocide, slay or butcher its all fine and dandy, similarly if god tells a human, (even if no one else can overhear) to kill, slay, murder, snipe, blow up, despatch, butcher, torture, liquidate, impale, ambush...thats fine and a continuance of god's will so we can all (except the faithful) be blown apart, diseased or killed at the end times: Aint faith grand! *continues to read bible and qu'ran simultaneously*
It is a Humpty Dumpty kind if day * sharpens knifes and checks ammo for semi auto Mauser .323 before grinning..."eh? whats that jesus? ...oh no problems..they will be fixed by tonight"" marches out front door humming "Onward Christian so oh oh ldiers"
Murder is usually a legal term used to differentiate it from other forms of killing. However, I think the word, "unlawful" shouldn't be part of the definition though I agree with Cognistic on the definition.
Murder has to have all the things below:
1. Killing of a human being
2. By another human being
3. It was premeditated.
For example, a car crash which kills someone wouldn't be considered murder as it wouldn't be premeditated. A tsunami killing a fishing village wouldn't be murder as the tsunami isn't a human being. Also, a pet owner putting their dog to sleep wouldn't be murder as well, because it wasn't a human being killed.
So apparently soldiers are murders. Problem is some people will agree with that conclusion, while others will not. Not much hope for objectivity there.
You mean for example when the bible states that your deity tortured King David's baby to death, because it annoyed that it was conceived in an adulterous affair. That's premeditated murder, right? Or causing a global flood to commit genocide.
I think the definition of murder under most legal systems also includes act of causing a third party to kill a person, such as hiring a hit man.
By that definition, god is guilty of the murder of Jesus, who we are told was killed as part of god's vast plan to wash away humanity's alleged sins. If Abraham had actually killed his son, god would have been guilty of conspiracy to murder in that case, too.
God is directly guilty of the murders of large numbers of people in the flood, and in Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as the murder of Onan.
However, god could get away with these crimes by submitting a plea of non-existence.
I asked that question of theists because I’m curious about how each one of them reconciles their god’s directive not to murder versus their gods killings of so many folks. Seems to me to be quite loudly dissonant.
CyberLN,
"I asked that question of theists because I’m curious about how each one of them reconciles their god’s directive not to murder versus their gods killings of so many folks."
In Bible speech murder is when an Israelite kills a fellow Israelite. It's perfectly acceptable for an Israelite to kill non-Israelites (Gentiles) because Gentiles were considered animals and not human (men) like the Israelites were. Remember, the First Commandment says to invade Gentiles' lands and perform ethnic cleansing and enslave or drive them out.
@ "how each one of them reconciles their god’s directive not to murder versus their gods killings"
They ignore it. They ignore the fact that Jesus and God are one and the same. They ignore over 80% of the book they profess belief in. They ignore Jesus telling them to hate their own family members. Ignore Ignore ignore. Christians have taken the fine art of Cherry Picking to such unbelievable heights that it completely boggles the mind of any rational person.
@OP
Huh? Is that a trick question? Lol. I'll have to agree with my monkey friend's first reply on this one
In turn it comes down to your view of human nature. If you think humans are pretty good to each other then here comes this force telling you to believe in their sky fairies/flying spaghetti monsters etc and justifying genocide here and there. People commit genocide in history without resorting to religion all the time like what happened in the former Soviet Union where millions were murdered. In day to day life Christians are suppose to turn a blind eye and forgive their enemies. To put it into perspective sure there are still religious killings in the world today like what happened in Myanmar etc. if you took all the murders in the world from the last couple decades which I'd imagine would be in the millions, how many of those would be directly or indirectly religious? Not many. Apart from terrorism I've never heard of murders in the western world that was a direct result of religion, I'm sure there has been but again a small percentage! I'm not Christian or Muslim but I believe in some of the bible and Quran like some of the Ten Commandments etc, if you take away the bullshit and adhere to the core values then there's no doubt in my mind the world would be a better place.
I guess my point is we would be still murdering each other if we were religious or not. Human nature?
Thank you
I don't see your point sorry, religious genocide has resulted in a smaller number of murders than genocides that were not committed directly in the name of religion? That doesn't paint religions in a better light, especially since they have always tried to claim moral ascendancy. It certainly doesn't in any way validate religious beliefs.
I'm with Voltaire on this "if you can convince people to believe in absurdities, then you can convince them to commit atrocities."
Jason, you wrote, “if you took all the murders in the world from the last couple decades which I'd imagine would be in the millions, how many of those would be directly or indirectly religious? Not many.“
Not many? What method did you use to calculate that?
The 20th century was the most secular century in history. It was also the century with the fewest homicides per capita in history.
I did state my point at the end. I didn't say that religion was squeaky clean, it has a lot to answer for.
There still would be atrocities/genocide, murders in history if religion didn't exist?
So humans can behave barbarically and cruelly, even without delusional superstitious beliefs, well gear-away.
“Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.”
― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
You can make up as many vague false generalisations as you like, the fact is religious morality has fared no better than secular morality, and on the whole a lot worse, but that's to be expected given how much of their religious texts glorify murder, rapine and genocide.
There were 18000 murders in the US last year, how many of those were religious? Not many
Lol
Again, not many? How did you calculate that?
Actually there is a great deal of research spanning decades showing that in the US prison intake has a disproportionately high number of theists compared to the general population. There is also a great deal of research showing that violent crimes like murder and rape are far lower in secular democracies, with countries like Japan, Sweden, and Denmark having some of the lowest rates of such crimes in the world, and those countries are predominantly atheist.
Theists keep making these sorts of claims, but all it shows is they haven't even done any cursory research into the topic they're making claims about.
If you want to read a well researched book on the top you could do worse than this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0029VCUVK/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o...
@ Jason74 "There were 18000 murders in the US last year.? You do understand that statistics are available on line for any assertion you make.
"Religion continues to be associated with violent fanaticism, as religion-inspired horror occurs with "unceasing regularity. Whether the struggles occur among Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus in India, or between Jews and Muslims in Jerusalem"1. No major world religion has avoided generating violence extremist movements from within its ranks2. This has been the case "since time immemorial"3. Religion-inspired violence is the stimulus for some people to call for the abandonment of religion altogether4 - it's not worth the risk. Monotheism has bred the most violent individuals and cultures due its intolerance of 'other' gods and a general strictness on the specifics of belief but, other forms of religion also breed antisocial and violent individuals. Public opinion (in the USA) correctly rates Islam, Christianity and Hinduism as the most violent religions (64%, 9% and 4% said so); Judaism was rated last at 2%. "
"Three factors lead believers into uncivil behaviour. (1) The irrationality of belief and (2) the legitimization given to actions by beliefs in higher authorities, without the teaching of any critical and skeptical way of judging between claims as to what those higher authorities would want. For some people, voices in their heads are all that are required as long as they believe in god(s) which have authority to speak to them."
All you need is a tiny bit of curiosity and the willingness to question your dogmatic beliefs. The truth is out there. You do not have to be ignorant the rest of your life.
http://www.humanreligions.info/violence_and_crime.html
It seems it's pretty clear 'most' murders or violent crimes have nothing to do with religion? Apart from terrorism and I'll admit there is no statistics that show the percentages but I've never heard of a gang member doing a drive by or a child molester committing these acts in the name of religion apart for some dodgy priest and cardinals!
Well, Jason, you have no data, so all we are left with, then, is your assertion. It simply doesn’t weigh enough to convince me you are correct.
Consider the following...a religion teaches a male that he is superior to females. It teaches that women should be submissive, help-mates, that women are unclean for a number of days each month, etc. This male beats a woman to death because she got uppity with him. Is religion culpable in that murder?
Edited to add...a young man is beaten to death for being gay...by kids who were taught by their religion that he was an abomination. Is religion culpable?
Stop making wild unevidenced assertions. You're just making up claims, and not even pretending to have any evidence.
Hitchens's razor "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
"It seems it's pretty clear 'most' murders or violent crimes have nothing to do with religion?"
No it doesn't - Hitchens's razor applied. Your biased verbiage is becoming tedious now.
Sure in some cases religion is to blame and it's appalling but for a person to commit a horrible act requires ideas right, those can be secular as well as religious. Yes there are some countries like Saudi Arabia who discriminate against woman and I'd say globally every country discriminate against gays to some degree. I see your point however religion is not to blame for every hideous act. Some good friends of mine are Gay including my nephew and the stories they've told me about being discriminated against had nothing to do with religion but rather involved being ridiculed by groups of young men while being out on the town or on public transport etc.
"Wild unevidenced claims", it's pretty clear most murders are not committed in the name of religion. It's not the absence of evidence on this fact rather the presence of evidence from media reports, social media etc.
Yes I'd agree the US penitentiary system holds a great percentage of theists after all 75% of the world are religious. Is the crime rate a direct result of religion or bad decisions made by a human being? I'm pretty sure religion had nothing to do with Ted Bundy's decision to become a serial killer?
On a broader view of history according to 'the encyclopaedia of wars', out of the 1760 known conflicts religion was responsible for 7% of these and 2% of all deaths in conflicts, it seems to me the leading cause of wars are politically driven and not a direct result of religious beliefs.