The end of the tyre prophecy talks about what god will you do with the remains of tyre after it has been invaded: “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place[c] in the land of the living. I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign Lord.”
Can anyone tell me if this is what happened to the phonecian remains of tyre
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Please help
I'm confused: are you claiming there are no Phoenician ruins in the area?
No but as far as I know they have either been covered by the ocean or burried underneath the modern city
Well I don't know shit about archeology, Tyre, or Phoenician history; but a few minutes on google shows the existence of peer reviewed papers about the Phoenician ruins that have been studied in the area. So again I'm confused.
From what I understand the phonecian remains of tyre have either been submerged ocean or burried underneath the civilizations that came after it including modern tyre, im trying to find out if this is true or not
@Ask21771 Re: "From what I understand the phonecian remains of tyre have either been submerged ocean or burried underneath the civilizations that came after it including modern tyre, im trying to find out if this is true or not"
Aaaaaaaaaand you came to an ATHEIST site to find the answer??? Granted, "Atheist" and "Archaeology" both start with an "A", so I suppose I can see your mistake in a way. However, you might want to go back to your search engine and type in "Archaeology Chat Site" if you really want to know the answer to your OP. Just a suggestion...
Ask2771: RE: The prophecy of Tyre.
No idea, so lets look into it... The assertion theists make is, "Predictive prophecy stands as one of the most viable proofs of the Bible’s divine inspiration. Ezekiel’s prophecy concerning the city of Tyre provides an excellent example of such evidence."
RE: What happened to the remains?
The city of Tyre still exists today, but the island and mainland are now connected by an artificial causeway (i.e. land bridge) first constructed by Alexander the Great in 332 BC. (FIRST GUESS: Like the ruins of Rome, buried under the city.)
"Either Nebuchadnezzar would attack Tyre, or he would not, and at the time of Ezekiel’s writing, the odds were looking pretty good."
THERE IS NOTHING SPECIAL IN THE PREDICTION: All the signs were there. It would be like predicting a war between Tiawan and China. Saber rattling has been going on for years. If a war broke out it would be a terrible prophecy.
"Ezekiel had been exiled to Babylon where he may have heard about the king’s interest in Tyre (the attack happened soon after Ezekiel’s prediction). Ezekiel would’ve known that Babylon had already conquered the Assyrians (612 BC), and was about to deal a final blow to Jerusalem (587 BC). He also knew that Babylon was in the process of incorporating most of the Eastern Mediterranean. Tiny Tyre, with its wealth and strategic ports, was a pretty obvious target, and Ezekiel’s promise of an easy victory may have spurred Nebuchadnezzar to attack."
You can not rule out the that Ezekiel may have made the prediction after the fact.
HERE COMES THE MEAT AND POTATOES:
"Here, God says that Nebuchadnezzar will make quick work of the mainland settlements, ravaging them with the sword. Nebuchadnezzar will then attempt to “build a ramp” to the island in order to “direct the blows of his battering rams against [their] walls.”
This prophecy fails.
When Nebuchadnezzar arrives at the mainland, he actually finds the city abandoned. There is no “ravaging of the settlements on the mainland with the sword,” because the residents had all relocated to the island. Nebuchadnezzar also fails to demolish the towers of island Tyre.
To whitewash this prophecy, some Christians interpret these verses as referring to the mainland only, but there are several problems with this interpretation:
1. There is no historical evidence suggesting the mainland was fortified with walls and towers.
2. Such heavy fortifications were unnecessary, since the mainlanders would (and did) escape to the island in times of trouble.2
3. The only way to deliver a battering ram to the walls of island Tyre was to “build a ramp up to [its] walls.” (This would be the same conclusion reached by Alexander the Great some 250 years later.) On the mainland however, a battering ram could be employed without the use of a ramp.
4. Finally, it was the towers of the island “out at sea” that were to be removed in order to make the island “a place to spread fishnets.” Not the towers of the mainland (assuming there were any).
"So when you move to attack Tyre, you move to take the island, not the mainland. The mainland was nothing more than an unimpressive “line of suburbs rather than one mainland city.”"Ezekiel himself refers to the mainland as “settlements,” not as Tyre."
" Nebuchadnezzar destroying walls and towers of the island of Tyre. But this results in a failed prophecy,"
"Nebuchadnezzar’s impressive army. In reality however, Nebuchadnezzar must’ve concluded that a ramp was too impractical, and so he settled upon laying siege to the island. ...The siege lasted 13 years, and in the end, Nebuchadnezzar never broke through the walls, or killed the people with the sword, or brought down Tyre’s mighty pillars."
14 (Cont.) You will never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.
TyreThe final prophecy is that Tyre would never be rebuilt. But Tyre was rebuilt, and still exists today. In fact, Tyre was even visited by Jesus himself. So what’s a Christian to do?
"However, even Biblical archaeologists admit that the area was so well cleared by Alexander the Great that no one knows where the original city stood. If we don’t know where it was, we certainly can’t confirm it was never built upon. And this defense assumes Ezekiel was speaking of the mainland never being rebuilt, and I’m positive Ezekiel was referring to the island… which was never even completely destroyed."
WELL THERE YOU GO. WHAT THE CHRISTIANS ARE CALLING TYRE IS THE MAINLAND - A RURAL FARMING AREA. THE CITY WAS THE ISLAND AND IT WAS NEVER CONQUERED. THE WALLS REMAINED STANDING.
"I believe Ezekiel did accurately predict that Nebuchadnezzar would make a move on Tyre, though this was probably more likely than not, and possibly self-fulfilling. However, I also believe that Ezekiel predicted that Nebuchadnezzar would slaughter the people of Tyre, pull the island walls and towers into the sea, and that the island would become an uninhabited bare rock. Ezekiel was wrong on all of these counts, and seems willing to admit it."
JUST A QUICK INTERNET SEARCH DEBUNKS THE ENTIRE PROPHECY:
https://500questions.wordpress.com/2013/02/24/43-did-the-bible-accuratel...
NOW AS FOR THOSE "RUINS OF THE CITY" YOU SPOKE OF..... WELL...... THIS IS JUST NOT DIFFICULT AT ALL!
https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/299/
That article doesnt say anything about the phoenician ruins
@ ASK
What the fuck are you on about? Are you saying the Pheonicians did not found the City of Tyre? That the modern Tyre is entirely different to the ancient city buried in part beneath it?
Tyre has a continuous history since about 2730BCE, they were 'Pheonicians" then and, if the various wars had not come we would be calling them "Pheonicians" now. The site has been continuously occupied for nearly 5,000 years. The biblical 'prophecy' is a nonsense.
So please make your point clear?
From what I understand the phonecian remains of tyre have either been submerged ocean or burried underneath the civilizations that came after it including modern tyre, im trying to find out if this is true or not, i am not saying that tyre wasnt found by phonecians I know that it was I also know the phonecian civilization was wiped out by alexander the great and has been part of other civilizations since, i am trying to find out what happened to all the remains from the phonecian civilization
@ Ask
The ruins are there...those that survived the wars over its 5000 year history. Tyre was nearly destroyed during the crusades for instance. There are archeological traces of the many 'cities' built on each other so what are you talking about?
You seem to think that one particular period of historical Tyre can be separated from the many rebuildings and fortifications that occured over the 5000 years of its history.
Phoenician ruins are there, Alexander did not 'wipe out' the Phoenicians, they are still there, we just call them Lebanese now. The Phoenician civilisation had outposts and cities all over the mediterranean, Carthage was 'Phoenician" and its remains are there today. The city of Acre was Phoenician and, like Tyre the ancient remains are there under the many rebuilds that city endured.
I do not see what you are really asking here... the remains of phoenician cities are all over the med...many of them still under modern cities. A simple google search would answer your questions.
This is the part of the prophecy i'm talking about: “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place[c] in the land of the living. I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign Lord.”
Did this happen to phonecian tyre?
ASK21771 _ READ THE FRIGGING ARTICLE I POSTED ------ NO!
Nebuchadnezzar "never breached the walls." When he reached the farmlands of the mainland, 'NO ONE WAS THERE."
He spent over a decade trying to conquer the city and FAILED.
Youre not even listening stay off my forum
This ain't your forum.
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What you've been saying is extremely confusing; I suggest that is why you think he isn't listening to you, because he doesn't understand you.
Guessing this guy is resorting to flame baiting since we all pointed out how debunked this "prophecy is"
Even if it was not completely debunked, is that really the best they can do? Some vague reference that some city will get razed at some point? This supposed to the great "evidence" of the enormous claim of god and undue all the mistakes in the bible?
Even if this were 100% true it would mean nothing. This kind of stuff actually to me is just more compelling evidence that there is no god like the one presented in the bible. Religious apologist should be embarrassed to even bring it up.
@ Ask
Don't be so naive. Of course it did not happen as described in any biblical text. The bible is not historically accurate at all.
. The early remains of Tyre as re still there just had been, like ancient Carthage, Acre and Jerusalem and all the other ancient cities they have been built over. Only when excavation takes place for subways or foundations do the archeologists get a chance to get down to the founding levels.
Phoenicians were actively trading right up to modern days, they have been called many names Tyrrhenians, Carthaginians, Lebanese etc. So they have never had a 'horrible end" . Their remains are all over the Med and their modern cities thrive on trade as they always have in that area. Also the med is not that deep in the area....So the "prophecy' is obviously pure bunkum.
FFS. Cog has answered you politely and comprehensively. Get someone to explain it to your if you are still having difficulty.
I'm not asking if the phonecian ruins are are still on the island or not Im asking if there burried deep in the earth and/or swallowed up by the sea (the island has shrunk over the centuries as you can see here https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/christopherdjacobs9/the-siege-of-tyre-...
@ ASK
Well the sea ain't so deep there and yes parts of the older cities and island of Tyre over the centuries have been reclaimed by the sea...so what? That happens all over the world and will soon be a commonplace event with whole islands disappearing due to global warming.
So what the fuck is your point?
The biblical 'prophecy' was obviously wrong. The 'Phoenicians' are still alive...Next question?
@Ask Re: "I'm not asking if the phonecian ruins are are still on the island or not Im asking if there burried deep in the earth and/or swallowed up by the sea"
Oh, holy fuck, dude. What part of "Go to an Archaeology Chat Site" are you having trouble understanding? Sure, you may have some folks here who are knowledgeable about some aspects of archaeology, but most of us here know next to jack shit about it. This may come as a shock to you, but there may be people on the Archaeology sites who are EXPERTS and PROFESSORS in such subjects. WHY are you not asking them? Plus, like a couple of others have already mentioned.... GOOGLE! Good grief.... *shaking head in mild wonder*...
Do you understand that this region of the Mediterranean is geologically active? There are earthquakes. Do you understand that over two or three thousand years, shorelines can change, ruins can go underwater, that old buildings can be covered over by new construction? This is not surprising, and not unique to any city.
Looking at the images you provided, I will offer that over time that part of the island became submerged, and a lot was added, which is consistent with a large community that has lived there for thousands of years.
The interesting part is that if some prophecy foretold it would be sunk, it is amusing that god did only a half-arsed job. If I was god and decided to scuttle an island, trust me, all of it would still be underwater.
In Montreal, the island of Isle Notre Dame was constructed in one year from the excavation from the subway. When new ground appears, there is always a reason, it was not poop from an underground worm god who decided to have a race there every year.
NO! How is that not obvious.
@Ask21771
"Did this happen to phonecian tyre?"
Why are you asking in here, an atheist forum? If you desire for historical accuracy, go a historical forum or read some books or Google or something productive.
Go away, do your own research, and if you have proof to support whatever your agenda, then return and lay out your argument.
@Ask21771: YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ..... from the article above.
"Some believers defend Tyre’s existence by suggesting that mainland Tyre was never rebuilt on the exact same spot. However, even Biblical archaeologists admit that the area was so well cleared by Alexander the Great that no one knows where the original city stood. If we don’t know where it was, we certainly can’t confirm it was never built upon. And this defense assumes Ezekiel was speaking of the mainland never being rebuilt, and I’m positive Ezekiel was referring to the island… which was never even completely destroyed."
WHAT DON'T YOU GET?
http://www.pheniciens.com/cites/tyr.php?lang=en
I'm not talking about the mainland city, I'm talking about the phonecian remains of the island city of tyre, would you please pay attention
@Ask21771 : ARE YOU RETARDED? READ THE FRIGGING ARTICLE. THERE WAS NO MAINLAND CITY. IT WAS RURAL FARMLAND. WHEN NEBUCHADNEZZAR GOT THERE, NO ONE WAS THERE TO GREET HIM. EVERYONE HAD MOVED TO THE CITY ON THE ISLAND! HE SPENT A DECADE TRYING TO BREACH THE WALLS AND FAILED.
Youre not helping GTFO
@Ask21771 - Then you are not being clear. Is English your first language? Are you asking what you think you are asking?
I edited my original post feel free to take a look
@Ask21771
"I edited my original post feel free to take a look"
I am more concernend about what was edited. It is a dishonest ploy to edit a post after it's initial release without informing everyone that:
1) You edited the post
2) What was edited and what the changes were
3) You did not state on the edited post that it was edited.
"Questions about the prophecy of tyre
The end of the tyre prophecy talks about what god will you do with the remains of tyre after it has been invaded: “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place[c] in the land of the living. I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign Lord.”
Can anyone tell me if this is what happened to the phonecian remains of tyre"
So I ask you, please, what did you change? And why?
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