Do you think overall religious/god following will over the next 5 years rise because of covid-19? Fall? Or something else?
A simple, "rise, fall, or "stay the same", or, "I don't know," etc. is fine if you do not have much time or interest.
But, I am also curious to the reasoning/thought process behind it for you, why do you think it will rise, fall, stay mostly the same, etc, if you have the time, this is a debate forum after all.
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I have personally witnessed the religious attributing any event they can, good or bad, to their delusional belief system. Who hasn't. Soooo, for the aforementioned brainless response from the religious drones, there may be a miniscule increase generated from irrational fervor of undecided simple folk, or increased adherence to religious dogma during indoctrination years of their young. They may, clouded by their religious cognitive dissonance, come to the conclusion that gawd is angry with them...therefore they should try harder to convert heathens.
Just my thoughts, but I really don't know.
Certainly is lots of fear going around. And religions have always capitalized on that in my experience and from reading history.
It might rise, a wee bit, for a wee bit of time. People struggle with fear. They sometimes crawl into god daddy’s lap for safely and comfort but hop down as soon as the bogey goes away.
Almost childlike in behavior? Or should I say, human like? It is just more easy to recognize in children perhaps, where we get "better" at hiding such behavior as we get older.
Always felt like to me: the older you get, in general, the better at lying someone gets. At least up to a point.
I am attempting to recall periods in human history where the masses of a community questioned their deity during a time of crisis.
In some primitive cultures, the tribal leader was held responsible for everything and that also meant that in times of hardship, he would be the first to be sacrificed. Of course we know about cultures like the Mayans who sacrificed people to please the gods.
That is scary to me, that indicates that the less educated or ignorant one is, the more likely they could react in some manner to appease a god.
In my opinion, once this crisis has passed, this will drive a deeper wedge between those who strive to be informed and educated and those who choose not to.
Or as we witness now, those who choose to stay at home, and those who choose to gather and stage mass demonstrations against social distancing guidelines.
Yikes, a deep wedge? Probably right though, I certainly predict even worse partisan divide in the US between democrats and republicans.
Certainly covid has revealed many things that were hidden just under the surface. Like the inability for US government to do.. well, much of anything, in such a weakened state it is in from years of: "trying to drown the government in the bathtub."
And people get to do pretty much what ever they want. Even if it means getting other people sick and possibly killing them just for being vulnerable.
@Logic... this ” is a debate forum after all.”
It is?!?! I thought this forum was for just theists to share their conversion experiences, fruits and “Life” ....
OK. Serious now. The Plague that wiped through the mid 1300s not only turned the elite’s system on its head (ie, “less workers”; demand more money/land - oops, Nobles have to pay and “give up” some power) BUT shook the Church as well. Failure (uh, end times anyone) of Prophecy fulfillment or “protection” had a roll-out effect.
Modern times?!?! Hmmmm, well how was religion doing before Spanish Influenza? After?!?!
These “plagues” are like a spiritual (hahahahaha) virus infecting the “churches” while they wiggle around, praying for a “cure”.
“God” idea may not fade fast, however I see some major changes for organized religions (perhaps over a decade or two)... and god becoming more irrelevant.
So “fall”, is my opinion.
Have to wonder the damage on folks not going to church for months. (Of course some still do, but many folks have reduced or skipped going to church on Sunday (or whatever) entirely. Without their weekly dose of "god" does their interest fade?
Does that force outweigh other forces like fear driving people towards religion?
Humans tend to see sentient causation in natural events, theists indulge this. I think most theists will lap this up as a "sign" from a deity, interpreting it to suit their own mindset, either to indicate an angry deity, a concerned deity, a loving deity even for theists like Homer to whom no facts are as important as his own core belief. Though to a certain extent that's true of most theists, as it's a faith based, not evidence based belief.
Many will puzzle at god's "meaning" in allowing this to happen no doubt.
I'd love to know what percentage of those are highly qualified epidemiologists though...I could hazard a pretty good guess...
I think religion will take a hit—we live in high information times where even with all the propaganda and fake newsry, access to truth is readily available—it’s inevitable that over a period of time people will start seeing the effectiveness of science base cure and knowledge—kinda like planetary system eventually becoming standard, accessible truth post-Galileo.
Although there are always going to be likes of flat earthers and conspiracy theorist with 5G conspiracies but their numbers will be in in decline.
I'm not so sure about that; but I hope you are right.
I think (or hope) that the COVID-19 disaster will open people's eyes to the harmful behavior of religious organizations. All over the world we've seen religious leaders holding large-scale religious events in defiance of social distancing rules. This behavior has caused virus hot-spots in South Korea, India, France, and many other countries.
The pandemic has also exposed religious greed, with churches selling various "remedies". In Australia the Genesis II Church of Health and Healing has just been fined $150,000 for selling chlorine bleach as a cure for COVID-19 and various other diseases.
Prayer has not only failed to do anything to fight the pandemic. It's actually hastened its spread, just as it did with the Black Death and other historical pandemics.
So I predict a major downturn in religious affiliation after the pandemic. But perhaps I'm underestimating the collective stupidity of the human race.
"Are you seeing things your imagination fancies? Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course :-"
I hope you're right. Perhaps with moderately aware people who are already livid because they're smart enough to see that it's not only Catholic priests who abuse children. The disgusting behaviour of some churches ('keep donating") and their irrelevance to a true catastrophe, may help some over the edge.
"But perhaps I'm underestimating the collective stupidity of the human race."
With all due respect, I'm quite convinced that's impossible . Although, I think we humans are constantly under estimated as a species in all kinds of positive ways too. Perhaps it's not reasonable to make generalisations about human beings as a species?
@cranky47: With all due respect, I'm quite convinced that's impossible
I think the operative word is "collective". I've seen people demonstrate amazing wisdom and intelligence as individuals and in small teams, but in congregations people are as thick as two planks, as mad as hatters, and as dumb as dogshit. And the hatter-dogshit coefficient is proportionate to the size of the congregation.
As the song says,
Whenever two or more of you are gathered in his name
There is lunacy.
,"---- but in congregations people are as thick as two planks,"
Things I've read/heard: "None of us is as dumb as all of us" and that in a mob, such as at the football, the intelligence of the mob exactly matches the IQ of its most stupid member.
Overall, I think you're probably right or that naked greed trumps intelligence every time. I don't know of any other way of explaining how there groups of powerful people slowly making our planet uninhabitable.
OR is it that John Q Sixpack is ignorant of/ afraid of/doesn't care about more science than he needs to drive his car, operates his mobile phone and work the remote on his flat screen?
Or is it just an Aussie s thing? ,
Dame Leonie Kramer was moved to observe that "Australia is the only country in the world where the word academic is regularly used as an insult"
I think the quote is right.Might have been intellectual.. Tried to find it on line but got distracted by: "How to swear like an Australian "
Leave your fanny pack at home when you visit Australia, or at least don’t refer to it as one without expecting giggles. The waist purse is called a bum bag in Oz, and that’s because fanny is another word for a woman’s reproductive organs.
You’re most likely to hear this pretty regularly in Oz or New Zealand, and the term is used liberally to refer to someone who is unsophisticated, unintelligent, or a bit “rough around the edges" -- the Down Under equivalent of a redneck.
The crass word is code for sex, which is why Aussies deride Americans for “rooting” for their favorite team. “Cop a root” is a common phrase for having sex. Based on that, “Take Me Out To The Ballgame” ends up sounding a lot like a track off a 2 Live Crew album.
"Dame Leonie Judith Kramer, AC, DBE (1 October 1924 – 20 April 2016) was an Australian academic, educator and professor. She is notable as the first female professor of English in Australia, first woman to chair the Australian Broadcasting Corporation and the first female chancellor of the University of Sydney. She was made a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire and a Companion of the Order of Australia."
@Cranky: Root The crass word is code for sex
When I first arrived in New Zealand in 1965, everyone was laughing at a TV commercial for a weedkiller that "attacks roots, shoots, and leaves". They said that's what Kiwi men do. I didn't get it.
I thought bogans were people who had intimate relationships with their cars, aka petrolheads.
The stupidity of mobs is pretty much universal, I think. The frightening thing is that a successful COVID-19 exit strategy depends on the stupidest members of society taking sensible precautions. Apparently the stupidest people in South Korea celebrated the end of lockdown in crowded nightclubs, resulting in dozens of new infections.
Get this... the beaver was given official status as an emblem of Canada when “An Act to provide for the recognition of the Beaver (Castor canadensis) as a symbol of the sovereignty of Canada” received royal assent on March 24, 1975.
It’s our “Official Emblem”.
And we have special meanings (also a woman’s beaver) ... ***snicker*** “ the Great White North's national animal, and thus, "Canadian beaver" refers to tip-top or top-drawer fucking.
I find it curious that the North American...oh ok! Canadian..beaver wins all these sexual references. Meanwhile the Australian platypus, a furry little critter, which looks a little like a beaver and also builds dams to create reservoirs in creeks and rivers to live in, just like the beaver, gets no sexual status at all. Poor ol' sexless platypus, why are you so unattractive?. I guess that's what you get for shitting and peeing out the same orifice, laying eggs and secreting milk for newborns. Oh and because they are Ozzie fauna they are venomous as well....gee think I answered my own question...its too fucking weird to be really sexy.
One of our national treasures, Leslie Nielson.
@David Killens: One of our national treasures, Leslie Nielson
Surely. The first time I went to Canada was in the days when airliners had big screens in each cabin. During lunch they played a movie of Leslie Nielson speaking on behalf of Canada's biosecurity authorities, warning us not to try to take meat into Canada. He reinforced the message by holding up various pieces of putrid meat, including a huge slice of beef with maggots crawling all over it.
Here. There's an old joke . girl ket calling her new boyfriend 'Wombat" .He finally looked it up : "Wombat; Australian marsupial ;eats roots and leaves"
Perhaps THE Aussie joke (Americans for example won't get it, so I'll explain at the end)
Cow cocky talking to his mate :
Cocky: "Goin' down to Sinny for a holiday next month Wal"
Wal :" Good onya Fred, you need a break. Which route will you take?"
Cocky : "I thought I'd take the missus. After all she stuck by me through the drought, the bushfires and the flood"
For those of you who did not have the great good fortune to be born in either Australia or New Zealand, some explanatory notes:
Cow cocky: cattle rancher
In Australia' route' is pronounced 'root' . The word 'root' is used as a noun or a verb, as a polite way of saying 'fuck' .
ADDED BONUS; for anyone thinking of visiting Oz. To get you off on the right foot; the 'l' in 'Australia' is silent.
@cranky47: the 'l' in 'Australia' is silent.
Yep. And the language of Australia is called Strine.
I don't think much will change. edited..and I am clinging to an optimistic outcome of this pandemic, despite the daunting predictions...
Worst case scenario would be that the world population is decimated by the now threatened second and third waves of infection and the global economy turns to shit. Add to this the possibility that "science" doesn't produce a vaccine to save the world. Out of fear, surviving theists will be encouraged to maintain their faiths and there will be an immense pool of traumatised people to proselytise with the offer of "hope", theism's greatest weapon.
Better case scenarios will involve the failure of the second and third waves eventuating, the global and local economies recovering much of the lost ground, and several, rather than just one vaccine being produced. However in this case, surviving theists will still give credit to their god for "staying his hand" or for at least guiding the research of the scientists. Those who did not believe before aren't likely to believe after. Others might recall the uselessness of prayer and the dynamic application of medical science in limiting the effects of C19. It will depend on individual experiences, but no doubt there will be rational folks who will recognise the passing of just another natural calamity but I think there will be many others like our friend Johan who will construct 'spiritual' strategies to cope with the fallout.
I am not convinced that religions will ever die out or that atheism will ever be anything but a minority stance. There is a persistent correlation between faith and education and living standards that influences the shifts back and forth between theism, atheism and agnosticism. The majority of people today in the world do not live in comfortable political stable economies. Poverty and uncertainty is the prevailing normal and is what keeps religion in power. Even if we could arrange the 'fairest' equitable global distribution of resources, wealth and education, the majority might still only be living just above some perceived level of "comfortable" and even then people are going to still want something more, or at least find solace in the hope of finding more and when material aspirations prove impossible most will turn to religion to satisfy immaterial needs. And as ever, believing in a sky daddy will always be much easier than having to accept and deal with reality for nothing more than what it is.
A PERSON can be smart/intelligent. PEOPLE are stupid. (Just a little something I heard many, many years ago. And I have seen an abundance of examples proving it since then... *chuckle*...)
As for the effect of COVID on religion, there are just way too many variables involved for me to venture a prediction. Sure, it can potentially push a few folks away, but there are just as many who will cling tightly to their blessedly divine security blankets while managing to persuade others to share it with them.
Yup!!! Thumbs up David!
It’s the diversity within our species that will allow for survival (well, hopefully, you know what I mean)...
“Stupidity” isn’t a bad thing. Like any tool, depends on how you use it and is it suitable for the job!
Should you build on a foundation of stupidity? People do...just look at religion. Does a person's stupidity affect others? Hell yes! If you build on a foundation of stupidity, you may very well end up a self proclaimed savior of humanity. If we don't point out their flaws, they will keep building on a poor foundation...and the structure they build may fall over and hurt someone. We have to point out stupidity to aid in the survival of our species...otherwise things like child rape, or murdering homosexuals may become acceptable.
Just my own personal view.
@ah my pessimist loving chimp
Totally agree! However, stupidity is a tool that can be used well.
My first “lesson” in its usefulness was demonstrated to me by my brother (about a year younger than me).
My parents liked to “sleep in” and would request (to put it nicely) that 10 year old Whitey make the morning coffee. Poor Whitefire, I asked if my brother could take turns with me.
“Sure” they said - and I showed him how to do it.
He’d fuck up each and every time. After 3 times he was not “allowed” to make coffee. Only Whitefire, because “I was soooo smart and soooo good at it!”
I learn to be and accept being “stupid” after that!
Don’t try to hammer a nail with a scewdriver.