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ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Jared, I have a question for

Jared, I have a question for you. One of my pet peeves in discussions is the use of indifference. You can argue all day long to convince someone that something is true, but its near impossible to convince someone that they should care. In your previous comment you downplayed the importance of sex with several "its just blank" phrases. Here you take on the same approach, saying that profanity "is just" a word.

I'm curious if you're able to make the same arguments, or defend your position, without the use of indifference? Because what if sex isn't just sex? What if it embellishes most of our lives, as it most certainly does? What if it is powerful enough, that its mere association can sell everything from cars to cereal? Sex can end careers, bring down presidents, and even cause people to commit murder and suicide?

Same with foul language. What if it isn't just a word?

Jared Alesi's picture
What a thing is and how

What a thing is and how someone values it are not the same. As an act, sex is just sex. We as biased or even bigoted humans put unnecessary value upon sex. I don't think Bill Clinton did anything wrong, but moralistic nay sayers wanted him impeached. I don't care if Trump fucked Stormy Daniels. It was just sex.

It's the same with language. A word is just a word. If it offends you, that's not some intrinsic part of the word offending you, but your association of the word with a certain attitude. In other words, if you stop caring about the word fuck, it loses its power.

The only difference I find are racial slurs, because those can't be stripped of their negative connotations. They were literally made to be hateful. But words like shit are words we just use differently from their original purpose. Shit stood for ship high in transit, because ships carrying manure would blow up if it was stored below the steam engine due to methane leakage. But now we use it differently. The n word can't really be used differently though, or at least not without a nation wide change of sentiment, because of its intrinsic purpose as a hurtful word.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Right, but that's the thing.

Right, but that's the thing. Humans are not robots; we interpret information in part by attaching value, meaning, and emotion to it. Literal brain damage is needed before a person becomes monotonous or unable to attach emotional value to things. Often times these people become unable to make decisions, precisely because such a response is necessary.

With autism for example, a person has difficulty understanding the abstractness of language. They see words as just words, in their most literal sense. That tells me that words are more than just the sound they carry.

So to rephrase it, you can't argue that sex is just sex and doesn't mean anything, because it clearly does. However, you can argue that people should try to treat it as meaningless, as nothing more than friction. But how do you do that?

Jared Alesi's picture
Connotation and denotation

Connotation and denotation are not the same. Linguistics 101. Your attitude towards sex does not change what sex is. Literal brain damage is not necessary to see a word as independent from its connotation, but rather is necessary to not be able to make the distinction. My autistic brother, for example, has trouble comprehending that the phrase 'going out with someone ' can literally mean exiting a building with them.

The meaning you personally attach to sex is not my problem, as it's your connotation. Sex is friction, as you put it. Your idea of sex is just that. Yours. Your opinion is not fact. On the basest level, sex is just an activity.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Right, but I'm saying that

Right, but I'm saying that connotation and denotation are both equally important, not that they're both the same thing. Your position requires that one ignore a words connotation, and treat it's denotation as the only valid aspect. I can't agree with that.

I think your last line has some improvement. You can say what sex at it's most basic level is, but you can't say it's just that.

UmmHurayra's picture
No cunnilingus is not

No it is not forbidden.

chimp3's picture
Why "before penetration" ?

Why "before penetration" ? Why not an act complete? Just a quickie before the woman goes to work? That is what is known as a " 68" ! , "Thanks dear, I owe you one!"

UmmHurayra's picture
So, because I am Muslim, it

So, because I am Muslim, it is my responsibility to stop the killing between the Sunnis and Shiites? What does their agenda have to do with me? I am a Muslim who believes in peace, if they can't live in peace with eachother they will have to answer to that on the Day of Judgment. I am not held accountable for their deeds. And if they misquote the Qur'an to justify their barbaric acts the punishment on them is even heavier.

chimp3's picture
I do not hold you accountable

I do not hold you accountable. I am an apostate Sufi! I do not consider Islam an authority, that is all! If you have a personal viewpoint that holds water in an argument, please submit it! If you think your argument holds more water than mine because you embelish it with "Islam" prepare for mockery!

UmmHurayra's picture

Nope never read those two books.

Jared Alesi's picture
Does your particular brand of

Does your particular brand of Islam permit homosexuality? I'd rather not get lashings for fucking my boyfriend.

chimp3's picture


arakish's picture

First off, why do some of your use foul language , such as f word and describing certain parts of the female anatomy, that is offensive to me.

Only YOU can give a word the power to be offensive. The only word I find offensive is "Agnostic." And I find it offensive because the true meaning of the word is "without knowledge." I ain't without knowledge. I have some knowledge. And I shall be first to admit I do NOT know everything. In fact, I know VERY LITTLE when it comes to the complete sum of all knowledge that has been recorded.

Anyway, if the language usage here is offensive, then go away. As Chimp3 said, "You ain't my mommy."

Don't your rules in this site state that you shouldn't use such language?

No. Here are the guidelines:

Forum Guidelines

  1. No trolling
  2. No bullying
  3. No disclosure of someone else's personal info
  4. No spamming
  5. No unrelated topics
  6. No scams
  7. No racism
  8. No homophobic, or sexist comments
  9. No non-English posts
  10. No links to gory pictures or harmful websites
  11. No threats of harm
  12. No advertising or self-promotion

I see nothing that says anything about "offensive" language. Here are some excerpts from the book I am writing:

Political Correctness Definitions
1) The avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.

2) The term political correctness is used to describe language, policies, or measures that are intended to avoid offense or disadvantage members of particular groups in society. Since the late 1980s, the term has come to refer to avoiding language or behavior that can be seen as excluding, marginalizing, or insulting groups of people considered disadvantaged or discriminated against, especially groups defined by sex or race. In public discourse and the media, it is generally used as a pejorative, implying that these policies are excessive.

Below is my definition, henceforth, that I shall forever use for that bullshit policy known as Political Correctness...

Political Correctness is a hypothesis created by cruel and heartless persons and spread by an uncaring and unscrupulous media in the belief that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by its clean end.

I shall be the first to admit that I never truly attempt to purposefully offend anybody; however, it is impossible to live in this world and NEVER offend. And always think of this: Only YOU can give a word the power to offend YOU.

The other thing I would like to say, stop generalising about all religions. All religions are not the same. And whatever you saw ,read and heard about Islam, please disregard it. You cannot look at the Muslims around you and think that represents Islam. That just isn't fair. And don't turn to some online version of the Quran, I have read these online verses and I can tell you it is not accurate. I think most of you are misguided when it comes to what Islam is about. Which I don't blame you for. You need good unbiased knowleable Muslims explaining the deen to you but I know that is hard to find. Even as a Muslim my search was painful but with perseverance I am at a place now I feel at peace with.

Let's go back to school... Some of this you may find offensive. However, it also the truth...

What Absolutists Abdicate and Abandon For Their Faith

Critical Thinking: The objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form an objective judgment.

Analytical Thought: The abstract separation of a whole into its constituent parts in order to study the parts and their relations in a coherent and logical process.

Deductive Reasoning: A process of reasoning from one or more statements or premises to reach a logically certain conclusion.

Rational Thought: Having reason or understanding to reflect on and to exercise the powers of judgment, conception, or inference in orderly ways or processes.

Logical Reasoning: The process of using a rational, systematic series of steps based on sound procedures and given statements to arrive at an objective conclusion.

Absolutists give up the above for this...

Faith: The practice of training one's mind to ignore evidence, logic, and reason, while being able to believe in fairy tales, and being proud of it rather than ashamed. Your biblical definition for faith is just a cop-out for the true definition.

And what I find most shameful is that some otherwise very intelligent people sacrifice that intelligence for their faith. Damnit, what the hell is wrong with you people? One of you could actually be the next Nobel Prize winner who discovers something so profound...

I have never truly believed in ANY religion, especially the Absolutist religions. There is no philosophical ideology more divisive than religion. And, the worst part of ANY religion is that it is an ideology that is implicitly and explicitly protected from any and all criticism from both within and without. [Which you have just proven with your post...] Why should any ideology, especially religion, be so privileged? Can you not see how disastrous this way of thinking can be, and is? I firmly believe, and shall take this belief to my grave, that the human species would have been much better off had there NEVER been ANY form of religion. It is due to Absolutist religions, and their way of thinking, and their theological disagreements, that has created the greatest destruction, injury, death, harm, immorality, wickedness, and abuse to the human species than any other cause. The main problem is not religious fundamentalism, but the fundamentals of religion. Ultimately, it is Religion that is Humankind's worst enemy. - RMF Runyan

How do I know Religion, especially Absolutist Religions such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, are Humanity's Worst Enemy? Here is a small list of what they are guilty of: murder, rape, torture, abuse, coercion, pillaging, oppression, persecution, extortion, ethnic cleansing, lying, intimidation, sacrifice, torment, harassment, rampage, terrorism, mutilating genitalia, enslavement, ravaging, swindling, exploitation, insults, endangerment, molesting and raping children, threats, corruption, plunder, genocidal cleansing... Did I miss any? Probably...

And from another post here...

Religion ensures peace.


All three Abrahamic religions say the same thing. Although it may not be verbatim, in all three, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, they all say the same thing about their beliefs system.

I know this is not the exact statement, but if you look you will always find something like this:

You are to live in brotherhood and peace with all others of like mind. All others are to be put to the sword.

All three say something similar to this. As far as I am concerned, "put to the sword" can only mean to be "put to death". If religion is peaceful, then why does it teach you theists that us unbelievers must be killed if we do not believe the same as you?

And do not try any of your bullshit with me. I have read the Qu'ran before it was revised to take out the statements similar to the one above. There is only ONE religion on all this Earth that actually is completely about "peace", Janism (msp?).

Otherwise, ALL religions (and including some of the philosophies) have their basis in violence. Especially when dealing with the unbelievers.

And it seems all religions have the same two methods for dealing with unbelievers: stoning and burning.


UmmHurayra's picture
Where in the Quran and Hadith

Where in the Quran and Hadith does it state that disbelievers must be stoned and burned? Provide me with the chapter and verse please.

Sheldon's picture
Quran (4:89) - "They wish

Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them."

mykcob4's picture

I'll make a deal with you.
You prove your god which is exactly the same as the jewish god and the christian god. And I will provide proof that you request.

UmmHurayra's picture

I grew up with somewhat Sufi beliefs. Here in South Africa sufis never really called themselves that, sufis. We just thought of it as Islam. The Salafi sect here was always a minority. I am curious though, I have never heard of apostate sufis. So do you pray like sufis? What is the difference you and the usual sufis? Beliefs and rituals I am referring to

chimp3's picture
The Sufi order I joined was

The Sufi order I joined was based in San Fransisco California. We were not like the more conservative Sufi orders like the Mevlevi. You can look up Sufi Sam. That will tell you all you need to know. By the way, I do not pray.

UmmHurayra's picture
I can't believe you people

I can't believe you people are blowing your tops just because I said stop the foul language. If that is the only way you can express yourself, sadly. Then go ahead. I will ignore that segment of it. But arakish no. I won't go away. I know you would love me to, because you dislike that someone who is Muslim and not justifying your view on the barbaric uncivilised "terrorist" has come on here and speaks against everything you expect me to be. Stop feeding into the media.

chimp3's picture
UmmHaryra: I do not want you

UmmHaryra: I do not want you to go away. I am enjoying our conversation. That is why I reciprocated your As Salaam Aleichum! I hope you stay around. You have a unique point of view!

Jared Alesi's picture
I do not wish for you to

I do not wish for you to leave either. I don't think anyone does. And nobody expected you to be a barbaric terrorist, because if you were, you would not come to a forum for atheism. If you were a terrorist, you'd be killing people, not debating them. So please, carry on.

mykcob4's picture

No one called you a terrorist you are just being paranoid. The reason people get bent out of shape that YOu fucking tell us to not use so-called foul language is because YOU are trying to impose YOUR fucking sense of religion/morality on US! Fuck that. Most of the people here are well educated and actually know a great deal about islam.
Profanity is just profanity it isn't an indication of intelligence.

UmmHurayra's picture

Wrong! The people on here clearly don't know as much about Islam as they think they do. Yes you can be well educated in various fields of study, it still doesn't prevent those same people from being ignorant about Islam or too arrogant to want to learn more about it. Yes I get angry too, I have used foul language but this is a forum and I am just trying to make things pleasant for everyone. How can we learn from each other if we keep cursing and yelling at eachother??? Calm the F down!

mykcob4's picture

You think that YOu are the only one that knows about islam? I dare say that even if you are an expert in YOUR sect that you have only scratched the surface. There are so many different sects so many different qurans that you could not know everything. As far as a language goes YOU don't get to censor anyone. I have close friends that are ismaili. I have Kurdish friends and many different types of muslim friends. Guess what they are all different in what and how they believe. There is NO universal islam just like there is NO universal christianity. So YOU don't know half of what you think you know. I have physically been to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kurdistan, Indonesia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Morraco, Turkey, Kenya, Ethiopia, Somalia, and many nations with large muslim populations.
You assumed that we regarded you as a terrorist simply because you are muslim. Probably because you think everyone, especially Americans believe that to be true. Well, missy, I have fought WITH muslims against terrorist.
Oh, and BTW "calm the F down" actually means "Calm the FUCK down". AND you don't get to tell me what to do! So you monitor your own behavior. I will not be censored!

UmmHurayra's picture

Likewise. And I appreciate your greeting in peace. This is very interesting I am reading now about this, Sufi Sam, Samuel L Lewis? I read this man started the Chisti movement? I read long ago about a Chisti Sufi movement here in Cape Town, actually not far from where I live, lead by Moulana Abdul latief. And I am just reading now trying to figure out if it is the same? And apparently Samuel did zen studies as well. Have you done that? I found kung fu and tai chi to be very beneficial for my health and quite relaxing.

chimp3's picture
Samuel Lewis was ordained a

Samuel Lewis was ordained a Sufi Murshid and Zen Master in a dual ceremony. The first of it's kind. He did not found the Chisti order. See "Vilayat Inyat Khan". Chisti is an Indian Sufi order. I never did Zen but Sam's Sufi practices incorporated Zen techniques. My favorite was a walking exercise. There was a chant to a 4/4 beat.We chanted and walked trying to concentrate on the top of your head and the soles of your feet at the same time. The goal was mindfullness. pTry it, it is difficult and fun! But, I have long since become unconcerned with all spirituality.

UmmHurayra's picture

I assume you are male and that you are homosexual, based on one of your comments about your boyfriend? I don't judge people, and I believe the natural order would be for man and woman to be a couple. I had homosexual colleagues who had pleasant personalities and who I could confide in at the time, so it really isn't my place to judge. I have a question for you if you don't mind. I never had the nerve to ask anyone who is homosexual. Why are you not attracted to females? Is there a particular reason, I mean sometimes a woman becomes lesbian because she was raped. What makes a man want to be with another man? I am not trying to be rude, I just want to understand. And another question, which is a bit explicit I'm sorry. Is intercourse not painful? Especially for the one receiving it. You don't have to answer the second one if you don't want to.

Jared Alesi's picture
I'm glad you asked; it shows

I'm glad you asked; it shows genuine desire to understand that most people disregard.

As for why I don't find females attractive, I don't rightly know. Whatever the reason, I wouldn't assume it is the same for everyone. I used to consider myself bisexual, but girls just don't do it for me, so to speak.

As far as intercourse being painful, it really depends on if one knows what they're doing. Lubrication is understandably quite important. For the inexperienced, one should take it slow. It's not dissimilar to heterosexual sex.

About what you said regarding the natural order of things:
It's a very informative video that I highly recommend watching.

UmmHurayra's picture

I watched the video and it is quite interesting. It lead me to watch more videos, where they speak about the level of progesterone in a man and how it may influence him to be homosexual. Here is one of them
When you say that girls do not do it for you, do you mean physically ,or on an intellectual and/or emotional level?
And if you see nudity in a woman does it arouse you or not?
Many years ago a homosexual man was interviewed on one of our radio stations here, and he was asked that question. He said yes he gets aroused if seeing nudity in a female, but that it does not mean anything, it doesn't matter. Hmmm. That's bit hard for me to comprehend lol. I'm thinking maybe he subconsciously knows he can't connect to a female emotionally so to him the arousal means nothing?

Jared Alesi's picture
I do mean on a physical level

I do mean on a physical level. I find that anyone of any sex can stimulate me intellectually. Emotional connection is not the culprit either, it seems. I connect with females just fine. I'm just not physically attracted to them, but I am to men. But no, female nudity does not arouse me.


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