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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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@Cognostic
Ok, do you mean that next time i ask why do you think God isn't true, i have to define which god it is and replace 'think' with something else.
I said 'think' because i know that the God of the bible most likely does not exist and there has been no claim on the fact that God is real with strong evidence behind it.
by the way, the person i was asking the question to, italianish, has already abandoned Christianity. I think you already know that since you just replied to him in this thread: https://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/bible-contradiction-h...
AGNOSTIC ATHEIST: "Ok, do you mean that next time i ask why do you think God isn't true, i have to define which god it is "
Of course. How in the hell else are we going to know what in the hell we are talking about. There are only about 30,000 different Christian faiths with their own version of God, You have Islam with its various versions. You have Hindu faiths. Shinto. And hell, about 500,000 other known gods. Which one are you talking about, Please define your God concept.
"Think" anything you like. How about "thinking" of a concrete definition that is objective, valid, and verifiable?
YOU SAID: "there has been no claim on the fact that God is real with strong evidence behind it." On this we can agree, hence, no reason to believe in god or gods.
Even though I'm on an atheist site, I am open to people giving me their arguments about why God exists.
Being supportive of other peoples' beliefs isn't the same thing as accepting said beliefs.
As to why I believe (not "know", but "believe") that there is no God is because of Occam's Razor, among other things.
Also, consider the following argument:
If there was a benevolent, supreme being running the mechanisms of the Universe, then I'm sure the He (but could just as easily be a She or an It) would be horribly offended by all the shit done in His name . . . and the Apocalypse would have already happened.
I course, I could be wrong. I've been quite wrong about many things over the years, so I'll find out for sure about whether I'm right or wrong when I die.
I started here when Google responded to a pedophilia post.
I am FURIOUS at the Roman Catholic Church and was looking for other people mad enough to do something about it. SNAP virtual meeting tonight if I can get the log in to work correctly this time.
Hi All
I came to this forum to, firstly, defend theism.
Then to defend monotheism
Then biblical theism.
Then (Nicene) Christianity.
Then, lastly, my own religion - a personal relationship with Jesus.
Hope that's OK.
#Debate_Room
**NOTE**: This post has been copied/pasted into another thread titled "In honor of Lion IRC". Please post replies there.
@Lion IRC Re: Defending theism
Welcome to the AR. Hope you enjoy your time here. Hope you don't mind, but I'm really curious about something since you made the claim you are defending the bible and Jesus...
Your god is supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing? Knows everything and can DO anything it wants, right? So, to me, that simply begs a couple of questions:
1. WHY would such an entity need you or anybody else to defend it?
2. From WHAT are you defending it?
Seems to me, any being able to create an entire universe should be more than capable of handling its own defense. Furthermore, that same being should not be the least bit concerned about anything you, me, or anybody else might say/think about it. The very THOUGHT of being so arrogant as to say you are "defending" such an all-knowing/all-powerful ETERNAL being is rather laughable, to be honest. Plus, it actually somewhat undermines you position of claiming your god is all-powerful. I can't help but picture a tiny little ant standing in front of an M1 Abrams tank yelling at all the other ants about how it has been "assigned" to defend/protect its tank-god. Because a tiny cluster of other ants that do not believe in its tank-god have armed themselves with spitballs and have planned to attack it. Just seems rather silly to me... *shrugging shoulders*...
Anyway, welcome again. Have fun.
@Lion IRC
If I may, I would suggest you start your own thread in the Debate Room if you plan to defend the bible and your god. This thread is already getting quite lengthy. As such, it makes it a real pain to get too deeply involved in extended discussions. Therefore, if you truly want to state a case for your religion, starting a fresh thread would be the best way to do that.
Thanks.
You'll note that, in this thread, I haven't actually strayed off topic. The question was asked in the Op. I simply replied.
I'll defend theism in any thread where people invite such a defense.
Hi :)
1a. He doesn't *need* anything. 1b. I'm defending *my* position - not Him.
2. See post #102
**NOTE**: This post has been copied/pasted into another thread titled "In honor of Lion IRC". Please post replies there.
@Lion Re: "I'm defending *my* position - not Him."
Ummm... Uh-huh. Sure. Okay. Well, in that case, why do you feel the need to defend YOUR position? Has somebody on here (or anywhere) challenged you in some way? And if you are truly confident and have full faith in your all-powerful/all-knowing god, then what would it matter even if you did get challenged? Do you not have enough faith that your Supreme God will take care of that matter for you? Or do you think your perfect god is not doing enough to protect you, so you feel you should take it upon yourself to confront others who believe in different gods or no gods at all? The way I see it, if I had such a powerful and intelligent person/being/entity as my own "personal bodyguard", I would not have a care in the world about what somebody might think or even say about me. Why would I care? There should be absolutely nothing to defend. But if you start getting defensive about your belief, then that is an indication you are possibly insecure about your own belief.
I can't speak for others here, but I personally do not care if you believe in your god. None of my business. Please feel free to worship and believe whatever you want. Therefore, you certainly do not have to defend yourself from me. To each his own, as far as I am concerned.... *shrugging shoulders*... However when you come into a public place and start spewing your beliefs for all to see, then you should be aware your beliefs are absolutely fair game for being critiqued and (if necessary) ridiculed. Just a fair warning.
Oh, and once again, if you intend to extend this discussion, please start a new thread. At the moment you are trying to pitch your sale on two seperate threads that are already getting lengthy. Not a good method for a productive exchange of ideas.
Did you read this post?
https://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/site-called-atheist-r...
Algebe said [of theism and Christianity etc.] "They are most definitely on trial here."
So there is your answer to the question..."Has somebody on here (or anywhere) challenged you in some way?"
Now go easy with the "...when you come into a public place and start spewing your beliefs for all to see" concern trolling.
I'm not preaching at you pal.
So chillax!
@Lion Re: "I'm not preaching at you pal. So chillax!"
...*puzzled look*... Huh?... Chill?... Who said I was angry? Hell, dude, I'm as cool as a cucumber, the same as when I made that post... *chuckle*... And I wasn't preaching at you. Just trying to offer some friendly advice. Funny you should mention "trolling", though, because I never implied anything of the sort. Was that a Freudian Slip, or are you having a guilty conscience? Either way, seems to me you are the one who should probably chill... lol...
And as for what Algebe said, you will have to ask him what he meant. But as for your using that as an excuse to "defend yourself".... well... seems pretty dang lame to me. Just a personal opinion, though.
You accused me of coming into a public place and starting to *spew my beliefs*.
If that was your way of saying "welcome to the party" (where everybody is welcome to freely spew their beliefs) then I guess I misunderstood you.
Because it sounded like good old fashioned concern trolling.
Now, you've made repeated interrogations of my motive for coming here and asking why, why, oh why must I feel the burning need to defend my position and from what/who. But that seems a bit disingenuous considering the fairly obvious setting of an AvT debate/discussion forum filled with criticism of the sort of views I hold. Does that not invite ppl like me to come and join in the contest of ideas?
@ Lion IRC
"Does that not invite ppl like me to come and join in the contest of ideas?"
I sincerely hope so.
But you must be aware that any assertion must be backed up with valid evidence.
@David Killens
More often than not the contest of ideas ends in a stalemate of atheists flatly dismissing any evidence they disapprove of - which is pretty much everything they hear from the theist.
In fact, I can't think of ANY form of evidence, secular or otherwise, which couldn't be flatly rejected (by gainsaying) in the exact same way as atheists wave their hands in the face of evidence for religious fact claims.
- that's not evidence
- yes it's evidence but not for what you claim
- that's fabricated evidence
- that evidence can't be trusted because the source is biased
- that evidence can't be falsified (well DUH. Because it's true.)
- that evidence can't be repeated. (Jesus-on-demand please!)
@ Lion IRC
You wrote "More often than not the contest of ideas ends in a stalemate of atheists flatly dismissing any evidence they disapprove of - which is pretty much everything they hear from the theist.
In fact, I can't think of ANY form of evidence, secular or otherwise, which couldn't be flatly rejected (by gainsaying) in the exact same way as atheists wave their hands in the face of evidence for religious fact claims.
- that's not evidence
- yes it's evidence but not for what you claim
- that's fabricated evidence
- that evidence can't be trusted because the source is biased
- that evidence can't be falsified (well DUH. Because it's true.)
- that evidence can't be repeated. (Jesus-on-demand please!)"
My Reply:
Most theists confuse evidence with 'claims'. For instance, they will quote something from the bible to use as 'evidence'.
Anything written in the bible is a claim made by the author, & without corroboration by another source is not evidence.
As an example: I constantly hear from christians that the evidence for jesus resurrection is that more than 500 saw him after his resurrection. This is William Lane Craigs favourite 'proof' that the resurrection must be true!
That is 'claim' made by the author of this particular paragraph in the N.T., & is NOT evidence. (this claim is possibly even a forgery that was inserted into the text at a later date & not in the original, but it doesn't matter either way)
Anybody can make claims like this, but when there is no supporting corroboration of the event such as where this happened, when this happened, who these 500 persons were, & no supporting corroborating evidence or eye witness accounts from ANY of the so-called 500 witnesses, then you should not be surprised that any sensible person would find this claim to be very suspect & spurious, & not worthy of evidence.
You cannot just say 'the bible says so, so it must be true'!
@Lyin.
Of all the ignorant prose you've submitted, and it is legion, this one has to take the prize.
"- that evidence can't be falsified (well DUH. Because it's true.)"
Why? Well first of all, it shows absolute ignorance about what a word and/or concept means.
Secondly, it really shows off that arrogance to the nth degree.
Thanks for the laughs, don't ever go away!!!!
@Lion... , falsifiability is sometimes considered synonymous with testability...
I can make the claim “green gremlins steal my socks”. I observe at least one sock goes missing every time I do a load of laundry. I may also claim that the “washing machine eats my socks”... these claims need to be tested. I could say I saw the green gremlin (perhaps I was stoned- Fievel may back me up Lol) - not good enough. Personal experience isn’t testable.
Seriously!!! Why do my socks go missing????
@ Lion IRC
"More often than not the contest of ideas ends in a stalemate of atheists flatly dismissing any evidence they disapprove of - which is pretty much everything they hear from the theist."
I suggest you examine your personal standards of evidence. Try to juxtapose a court of law instead of a willing and pliable congregation.
Would any of your assertions be admissible in a court of law?
Give it your best shot, please provide your best example and we can unpack it.
@Lion IRC
Your list is severely lacking. It is missing the far and away most important form of evidence. Repeatable, demonstrable verifiable evidence. Of which I have never seen from any religious/god idea.
Can you present any evidence for your god idea that can be repeatedly demonstrated, and verified via testing and data?
Yeah did not think so.
Evolution theory can be evidenced this way, the big bang theory can as well, even the age of the earth/universe can, and the three I just mentioned blows large holes in your holy instruction book that is supposed to be the divine word of an all powerful and knowing god idea. Holes that theist apologist try to tiptoe around by saying "you are not interpreting it correctly." Rather then trying to go out and actually properly evidence why they theist apologist position is supposed to be the "correct" one.
That's a pretty dishonest misrepresentation of the facts, as you nor any theist ever presents any objective evidence. Though as you have done here they make this dishonest claim implying atheist bias when their rhetoric, unevidenced claims, and fallacious arguments are indeed rejected.
The bias is manifestly yours, and other theists, as they set a double standard, by accepting them as true without any objective evidence, something they don't do for all other beliefs they hold, and again I have asked you, as I ask all theists, what objective evidence they can demonstrate for any deity, or to list all the beliefs they hold without any objective evidence to support them, but that form no part of their religious beliefs.
As has been the case with every other single theist, you have not given a single one, ipso facto your belief is inherently biased.
As an atheist I set the same open minded objective standard for all beliefs I hold to be true. Atheism itself of course in not a belief, nor is it therefore a claim, nevertheless to accuse atheists of bias in rejecting your claims when they set the same standard for all claims is manifestly dishonest.
Well they'd hardly remain atheists if this were not the case, now would they. Though a simpler more honest reason for the rejection is that theists cannot demonstrate any tangible objective evidence, or rational arguments to support their belief a deity from a bronze age superstition is real, while simultaneously maintaining all other deities humans create are not. And I have yet to hear a theist offer any explanation of how their deity differs in any objective or even rational way from the others.
SO Kitty Cat: When you gonna start "defending your position?" You said: "defend my position and from what/who." THAT'S WHAT WE WANT TO KNOW. HOW MANY TIMES MUST WE ASK???
@Lion Princess Re: " You accused me of coming into a public place and starting to *spew my beliefs*."
For the benefit of those who may have missed it, I have cut/pasted below the post I made to which you are referring. And the below post was made in a response to your "answering" a question I had posed to you in a previous post. That question being: "Why do you feel the need to defend your all-powerful/all-knowing god?" A very legit question, as far as I am concerned. So, at this point, I will allow folks to read the copied post before I continue...
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"@Lion Re: "I'm defending *my* position - not Him."
Ummm... Uh-huh. Sure. Okay. Well, in that case, why do you feel the need to defend YOUR position? Has somebody on here (or anywhere) challenged you in some way? And if you are truly confident and have full faith in your all-powerful/all-knowing god, then what would it matter even if you did get challenged? Do you not have enough faith that your Supreme God will take care of that matter for you? Or do you think your perfect god is not doing enough to protect you, so you feel you should take it upon yourself to confront others who believe in different gods or no gods at all? The way I see it, if I had such a powerful and intelligent person/being/entity as my own "personal bodyguard", I would not have a care in the world about what somebody might think or even say about me. Why would I care? There should be absolutely nothing to defend. But if you start getting defensive about your belief, then that is an indication you are possibly insecure about your own belief.
I can't speak for others here, but I personally do not care if you believe in your god. None of my business. Please feel free to worship and believe whatever you want. Therefore, you certainly do not have to defend yourself from me. To each his own, as far as I am concerned.... *shrugging shoulders*... However when you come into a public place and start spewing your beliefs for all to see, then you should be aware your beliefs are absolutely fair game for being critiqued and (if necessary) ridiculed. Just a fair warning."
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Now, whether you believe me or not (and I honestly do not care one way or the other), when I made that post and the one or two before it, I was actually being sincere and trying to make a genuine attempt at understanding your position. In other words, I was not being my typical smart-ass self when asking you those questions. (And, ask anybody here, I can be an ABSOLUTE ASSHOLE if I choose to do so. Luckily, you haven't seen that so far.) Yet, despite my effort to welcome you here and ask questions, you have repeatedly failed/refused to answer those very simple questions with anything even remotely resembling a direct answer.
Nevertheless, all that is a rather moot point now. Because as you continued to post and respond to others here who are GENUINELY GOOD, SINCERE, AND LEVEL HEADED members, you have demonstrated without a doubt that you are here simply to be an annoying little plop of lion poop that gets stuck on the bottom of a hiker's boot. And that's all good and well, as far as I am concerned, because even lion poop on the bottom of a boot can have its entertainment value.... (for a little while, at least). Meanwhile, as I may have already mentioned in another post somewhere, please feel free to hang around as long as you like. It is theists like you that make it so much easier for us atheists to demonstrate how truly toxic your particular god idea is to the human brain.
Atheist Republic wrote :
@Jungle Gym Kitty Re: "Atheist Republic wrote :
Just remember to be respectful to all users since every individual is entitled to his or her own beliefs."
Awwww... Is da poor wittle kitten getting hims wittle feewings hurt? Aw, shucks, gosh-darnnit, and boo-friggin'-hoo.
By the way, personally, I show and give respect only to people who actually DESERVE respect. And I do so on my OWN terms based on my OWN evaluations. Just so you know...
@ TM
Just so you know. Captain Cat is so offended by "Lion IRC's mendacity and propensity for clog dancing with the truth that he has taken it up with the WWFCA (World Wide Feline Calumny Association) the peak (NOT peke) body of all Felines in the world. Frankly CC is fed up with cats being represented by a lying mendacious, word twisting smartarse who is, in fact, a genus of Great Ape.
CC, through the dint of judicious biting and the odd clawing has let me know that he considers it rude in the extreme and in future such wimpy, spineless, soft dildo apologists should not impugn the honor of the Feline world.
If his complaint is upheld a committee of felines will decide on the sentence, and instruct local felines to carry it out. This can vary from hunting and eating the perp (depends on size of local felines) to shitting in ones veggie patch for weeks at a time. Howling outside bedroom windows at all hours to persuading partner/workplace to adopt a kitty...who will then spend its days shedding dander, fur and parasites all over the desk, workstation and books of the perp.
Once my stitches have healed I will be supporting his claim.
It's not easy being a cat.
Attachments
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@ Lion
Well then fire away.......should be interesting.
The Op wrote;
"I do not understand why Christians come to this site."
I was just answering :-)
@Lion IRC
Just answering huh?
What do you really think, we'll convert suddenly to Christianity or something?
Sorry there's no proof a god exists. None.
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