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These days many churches are more about money, (but they still wield tremendous political influence, a couple of powerful religious institutions are likely more than anything else to have helped push trump over the edge into winning the election.
In the past the church was so much more, they were THE power, yes lots of money for sure, but even kings and churches allied up helping each other stay in power. How else do you get a bunch of people to go to war back then? Far from home, facing likely death or grievous lifelong injury/disability. Left to the rational mind, not very many people would go to war willingly, especially to conquer far off lands when knowing full well they were not likely to come back home. How do you get people to listen to a monarch and labor under monarchy instead of something more equitable and fair? Again religion plays a big big role.
@ Cognostic
I can't be right all the time, i should have said "three fears that..." and not "the three fears that...". I was not going to adresse every causes that lead to religions. I think the use of critical thinking should be taught, if not for the eradication of religion, for protecting against abusive schemes like you say.
It can be of use in politics, when you're going to buy something and arguing with the seller etc...
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Agreed uncle cog, There are many things that people are afraid of...and a lot of them are used by religion to subvert human response, and not in a positive way. What I was saying, is that the fear of being alone, is part of our survival drive, connected to our well being and the well being of our species. No need to think of being alone as a negative thing...which religion uses for its gain, but more as, we are alone and need to come together to survive and more so, thrive. There are lots more insecurities religion uses to keep followers afraid. Those fuckers.
Also as Steven Weinberg once said, "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."
As he put it, you will find nothing else in this world that is more insulting to human dignity. Slavery is a very close second, if not equal.
rmfr
I have always said, you have to be religious to be immoral. Based on morality being a genetic trait evolved from well being of our species...seeing most actions are positive or good, as this is more in line with well being, It takes religions to diverge from the natural genetic response of good, to pervert our actions to bad. Being told a deity will forgive you of ALL bad actions, subverts our innate propensity for good and well being...allowing immoral actions. Hence, bypassing our genetic moral propensity, leads me to think that you have to be religious to be immoral.
I agree...Religion IS an insult to humanity...and i'll go further to say...Religion is the greatest threat to humanity.
@doG
I agree, but in the sense that religion falls under the greatest threat to humanity, which is actually humans are the greatest threat to humanity. We are at the very top of the food chain, unquestionably undeniably dominant over all other life, and even further we conquer many other environmental threats to a great degree, increasingly for so many of us even lack of food/water/air is not an issue, and we even are defeating powerful microscopic life like viruses and bugs.
I don't fear the weather or the elements, I don't really fear illness or sickness, I certainly don't fear other complex life, the only thing I fear is other humans. (Mainly when they drive their 1-2 ton vehicles at 80mph in a huge hurry to arrive at their destination possibly 30 seconds sooner then a more reasonable driver would take.)
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...and this is what I eluded to on a previous post further up, that fear is not the final determinant of our choices or beliefs...it is often the first awareness in a situation, but then reason is applied...that is usually the point we decide on the right choice. We can even use reason to decide if fear is warranted or not, effectively overriding fear altogether. What the real question here is, why do humans disregard reason and logic altogether. Your speeding vehicle analogy underlines my point.
Edit: double post...I can't do two things at once without fucking up.
@Logic Re: "Mainly when they drive their 1-2 ton vehicles at 80mph in a huge hurry to arrive at their destination possibly 30 seconds sooner then a more reasonable driver would take."
...*raising hand sheepishly*... Guilty... *hanging head in shame*...
Ah dont feel bad I did it too first 10 years of my driving.
I never did. Me dad taught me that you are just as likely to get where you are going before the asshole who is going 1000 mph and wrecks being in a hurry just because they don't want to 5 seconds late.
Then again, when it comes to driving, I have always been laid back and chillin. I always leave home at least double the time it takes me to get wherever I am going. That way, I can my time and as safe as possible driving that multi-ton contraption of instant death.
The only two accidents I have been in were the other person's fault. The first sent our car tumbling down the mountain-side. The second, the drunk asshole crossed the median and slammed head-on. Both times, fucking god damn drunks.
Just my opinion, and ONLY mine, I feel all drunks that are pulled over, should just be shot in the head and leave their body for the vultures. There car impounded and auctioned to further support euthanizing those drunk drivers.
Oh, and besides, me dad told me if I ever got a ticket for anything, he would beat me ass. And trust me, when you have seen your father reach into the engine area of a car, lift up the engine AND transmission from a 1970 Hemi'cuda with his bare hands, walk them over to a set of blocks, and set it down, … …
Trust me. He would broke me like a toothpick.
rmfr
In response to arakish's post:
Me personally I would set it up that if someone is caught driving drunk, all the usual consequences but with one notable major addition (this is assuming no one got hurt.) They lose their ability to buy alcohol. Even if it is the lower "DWI" for a year. Around here everyone gets id'ed regardless of age, the persons ID's all get marked as: do not sell alcohol to. Usual implications of selling/giving alcohol to minor applies to a person that caught drinking and driving. A 2nd time? They lose their driving privileges permanently. They get to travel via uber or the like.
If the person is such a drunk to the point they do not want to stop drinking they can give up their drivers licence until they want to do the one year thing. People that drive w/o a licence (one that got taken away, in this manner) gets a week in jail for first offence. Not a monitoring device, but real jail. And ofcourse far more if they alcohol in the system when caught like this.
Once cheap fleets of self driving uber services are available everywhere, the merest hint of alcohol problem = lose ability to drive self permanently. These people obviously cannot be trusted with the PRIVILEGE of being able to drive on our expensive overcrowded public roadways.
If they can find a reliable way to detect how "high" a person is on pot, same thing. (They are getting close I hear.) The problem with pot is the half life on it is way too long. (Pot is in the system long after the "high" is over. Especially if taken regularly.)
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@ LogicFTW
That could work. However, I still prefer the vulture food method. Get it out of the gene pool. Do it enough times, alcohol sales may drop to a point many of them will be bankrupted. So the fuck what.
Actually, they could just make IDs that scan like a credit card. Purchaser must swipe ID first. Main Federal databank keeps the info and kicks backs a "Cannot Purchase" message. That could work.
Or how about this, grandfather clause it, but put in a blood tester in the car that pricks the finger and BAC. If it ain't zero, then car don't start for any reason.
Hmm... Still like the vulture food method best. But I am extremely biased and freely admit it.
rmfr
@arakish
I am for the vulture method if they seriously injure or kill someone(s). At least it sounds good to me in theory. (Judge jury executioner is a problem in this scenario.)
There really is no excuse anymore, if you drive drunk not only are they irresponsible, but these drunks are also being cheap asses. If you have too much to drink and need to get somewhere just call an uber and pay 5-20 bucks (drinks at most bars is 10 bucks after taxes and tips!) I know in my state, if there is availability, a cop will give you a ride home for free, (if you are not too far away from home.)
And yeah, body fat, metabolism etc all play a signficant role. It is difficult to objectively measure how "high" a person is, instead it's only a rough measure of how much pot they have taken in the last few weeks/months. There are ways, but currently it is too expensive to be deployed, especially a mobile unit that can be used on the side of the road.
I live in Colorado and I appreciate retail pot a lot, but it is scary to me the increase in people driving around high, especially as people figure out they can likely get away with it (Unless they are actually involved in a crash.) I never drive even a little high or drunk. It is so easy to just take that stuff at night in the comfort of your home when you already know you do not have to go anywhere that night. However DUI's have gone down slightly in colorado lately as some people swap out drinking with pot.
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LogicFTW: "The problem with pot is the half life on it is way too long. (Pot is in the system long after the "high" is over. Especially if taken regularly.)"
Yeah, and depends upon how much fat in your body. When I was constantly on the run, working out, bicycling, jogging, etc., etc., I had almost no body fat. Usually within two weeks the THC was out of my system. Now days, it would probably take 45 days. I have heard some severely overweight persons can still have testable levels of THC in their fat four to five months after smoking it.
rmfr
doG: "Religion is the greatest threat to humanity."
I have been saying something similar for over 40 years.
"Ultimately, it is Religion that is Humanity’s worst enemy."
EDIT: As Logic stated, my above statement is under the more general heading of "Humans with Religion is Humanity’s worst enemy."
rmfr
@dog
“I agree...Religion IS an insult to humanity...and i'll go further to say...Religion is the greatest threat to humanity.”
When I hear things like this, I tend to believe that the person is just being cynical for the sake of argument. How can you say religion is the greatest threat to humanity with a straight face? Let’s take Christianity for example, please tell me why you think Christians are going to be the destruction of our species...?
Well, seeing we are talking about fear, lets just start with that, shall we...I think that my innate genetic trait for survival, has done well by using reason to develop my aforementioned statement. Now, using the same logic I came to my statement with, I can use to answer your question. Christians believe in a supernatural entity, without any evidence. Logically this is irrational. Now when I decide to interact with others, I weigh the possibility of threat to myself or family, or even my species, with weather that person Is someone to trust or to fear. Someone that has such a colossal failure in reason, is not someone to trust, but clearly, falls within the untrustworthy side of the measure...and when talking broadly with respect to our species, someone to fear. Such a repeated irrational belief and repeated failure in reason, like abrahamic religions, leads to repeated treat of violence, murder, war, strife and death. I trust you are not going to holiday in Sri Lanka on easter next year, are you? Is that a rational fear? I believe it is. Is my statement irrational, clearly not.
RE: Religion is the greatest threat to humanity.
My greatest fear is that religion is only a symptom of the ignorant. An outward manifestation of an internal pathology. Face it, people do crazy shit for lovers (kill my spouse). People do crazy shit for kings. People do crazy shit for race (kkk, Black Panthers.) Politics,
Sports and sports fans. People in fact, do crazy shit for all sorts of bat-shit crazy ideas. Religion is not alone. Any idea held by an individual at the expense of rationality can lead to insane acts of violence, hatred, and the dehumanization of the enemy. I am of the opinion , that were religion to vanish tomorrow, nothing in the human race would change. That is in no way intended to decrease the disgusting bullshit that is religion in the world today. I do not regard any of it as useful or good. I see it all as a symptom of mankind's delusions. At the same time, it can be argued from history and an evaluation of religious texts that some religions are more prone to violence and harm against fellow primates than others.
So, I look at these poor dweebs that log in an attempt to support their God beliefs not only as indoctrinated into their various faiths but as also having mental issues. Their religion is an outward manifestation of internal conflicts. Giving up religion means giving up power and control, a sense of being right, giving up friendship and love, giving up a part of who they are as a human being. Giving up an identity. And so I assert, if these people did not have religion, they would attach themselves to some other accepting group where they felt they fit in and be every bit as crazy. Just my thoughts.
(EDIT) More clearly state the position: "Human ignorance is the greatest threat to humanity and religion is its symptom." IMO this is why education is the bane of religion. Education helps to alleviates ignorance.
@cog
“Giving up religion means giving up power and control, a sense of being right, giving up friendship and love, giving up a part of who they are as a human being. “
Funny for two reasons.
One, because in order to convert, I had to literally give up my family/identity for what I believed to be the truth. Giving up religion would be way easier than not.
Two, the same remarks could said of you or any other atheist. Maybe your self esteem is low? Maybe you don’t have the grit to sustain a fast. Maybe you are too lazy to read, maybe you don’t have the humility to admit their is something better than you...Maybe it is easier for you to pretend their is no God than to accept that there is...?
@SomeBODIEShero: " I had to literally give up my family/identity for what I believed ."
No argument from me. Religious cults have been stealing children away from their families since the beginning of time.. REFERENCE JESUS'S SERMON ON THE MOUNT - "Think not of tomorrow. Drop everything. Do not make plans, To hell with your family. Don't pay the rent. Drop everything and follow me. You are like a lily and god provides for them doesn't he? Leave everything behind and follow me. " RELIGIOUS INSANITY IS NOT AN EFFECTIVE REBUTTAL. We are in complete agreement.
Your comment is only about making a significant life change. You could have, as easily, cited "getting married, the death of a loved one, moving out of your home and attending university."
RE: "The same remarks could said of you or any other atheist....." YEP. STILL NOT A REBUTTAL TO ANYTHING I HAVE SAID. I NEVER MADE THE ASSERTION THAT THERE IS ONE REASON AND ONE REASON ONLY.....
@ uncle cog
Damn, that's not bad old chimp...not bad at all. I was thinking there has to be a correlate between someone joining a religion, and someone joining the hell's angels. Fits nicely. Maybe, insecurity is the drive? Just thinking out loud.
@doG: I didn't think of gangs but it fits well. I think we can add the police and the thin blue line to that as well. Be a part of the controlling class or the class that is controlled. Human beings are herd animals in general. We join groups. Groups eventually seem to oppose one another. I just realized where I got all of this. It came flooding back into me. J. Krishnamurti and his critique against religion - a focus on Buddhism.
I am a Buddhist, He is a Hindu, they are Muslim, She is a Christian. It is differences that cause friction. Only when we identify as different from another is friction created. So I am a Blood and you are a Crip. We identify with all these labels and then we pretend that the labels are real. We are actually just human beings pretending we are this or that and pretending other people are this or that. We all take our pants off one leg at a time. It is hard enough just being a human being, why be anything else?
I agree.
However, it seems we still have a failure in reason to deal with in this hypothesis. Human's fail at reason...something is overriding our innate propensity for good and well being...a short circuit as you hinted at...and this I can't see. Religious followers killing in the name of, or members of a bike gang killing in the name of...fail at reason. Whomever we are, if affected by others belief's or views, most abort logic for belonging. I am different...if my wife says for me to do something that does not make sense or is not reasonable...I don't just follow her request just to be with her...I tell her I believe she is wrong, and why. As a matter of fact, that's one of the reasons we love each other...she does the same to me. Why cant the religious do the same? My loss of my wife, if she wasn't intelligent, would be just as devastating as someone being ostracized by the former group they belonged to. This, I am going to ignore reason just to belong behavior, seems like a distinct separation in genetic drive to survive...almost as if there are two different divergent species...one able to reason and deal with shock of truth...and one that can't. I think Logic may have been onto something when he suggested ignorance as a growth medium for irrational behavior and belief.
I don't get it...why do they fail at reason?
There is a reason the US military will not admit anyone with an IQ score lower than 83. There is a reason Police in the US are allowed to refuse to hire anyone with an IQ above 104. https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836
It's much more difficult to manipulate people who are capable of thinking,.
That's astonishing. Huxley's Brave New World has started. I am literally flabbergasted at that. One assumes this doesn't apply to higher ranks, or detectives at least? I wonder if the serving officers know, and how they now feel about it? I have taken two IQ tests, and I would not be allowed to be a police officer, but I'm not telling you which demographic the result put me in.
104 is below average so wouldn't this inhibit initiative, which one assumes in a serving police officer is valuable attribute?
Everything is about "Following Orders." Even for Detectives. Fail to follow orders and you will soon find yourself out of a job. Have you any idea how much evidence is fabricated in a court trial by the police.
Welcome to the Police State of America - Look up "Policing for Profit" and it will really make you sick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy16X7B0atU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhAa2vep1z0
@ Cog
*sings* and the land of the freeeee"...WTF?
We have similar forfeiture laws in Oz, but the assets are frozen ( so they do not 'evaporate') until the court case. Only after the case can the assets be permanently seized. What the hell is happening in my beloved US?
I used to live there and loved the fact cops called me 'sir', only breathalysed me after a drink/drive acrobatic procedure, and generally respected my person.
As a civilization we are fucked my friend.
Complete Reversal: You don't call them "Sir" they roust you, plant drugs on you, take you to jail, and steal everything you own. Welcome to the police state.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp0p7b0Wf7o
Sometimes we catch them.
Last week my clothes dryer went on the fritz, so I had to go to a laundry mat. Apparently some kind of ruckus had happened at the laundry mat before I got there, and the police showed up shortly after I did. They "interviewed" me for maybe 1 minute and managed to tell me 3 lies:
Lesson learned: next time, go to a laundry mat in a more affluent part of town.
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