I have reviewed a couple threads where Users were new to Atheist Republic. Folks, the tone for a discourse is established in the first couple exchanges. I got to call it like I see it. I looked at the homosexuality thread involving Joy. IMO, Tin-Man fired the first shot across her bow. He set the tone!
Here is my point, let us not be hypocrites. I see folks doing exactly what you accuse others of doing.
In my time here, I observed that posts that don't validate the values, beliefs, and philosophy of the "like-minded" majority are not welcome. Opposing views on this forum are treated like a violation.
May I plea that we take the high road. Let the newcomers draw first blood.
I will not stay here if this is what we are.
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@ Bright Raven
I was new here once. I did not presume to lecture others on the manners or approach on the forums at all.
Off forum I discuss many things , politely and in good humor and have made what I am proud to call friends on and off the site.
Theists who ask, who enquire, who do not judge and a re willing to go away and rethink an approach or even look at the facts presented, I respect and once again, have had polite and stimulating conversations both off and on line.
You are out of line, Bright Raven to lecture anyone on these forums on behaviour, politeness the color of their underwear or their state of circumcision.
Whether I take the high road or fuck off rudely down the low road is not for you to judge. How I address others is a matter for me, not you.
If you don't like the way I address people, well, just don't fucking read my posts. Easy.
I was likely not clear. Far be it from me to provide behavior training.
I am simply saying some on here are being hypocritical. Many lament the close mindedness of the theist. What I observe is like kind here.
Is the objective to set up a cobweb, catch the insect and then bash it? I have been at this game long enough to know that you don't change folk's minds on religion or politics.
I am providing a view with a fresh set of eyes. Some on here might benefit. I have no intention of targeting you or anyone else. You are who you are. Carry on.
Hi BR, I think having been here a while I recognise why you think as you do based on a short visit, note I do not say you are entirely wrong, however many atheists have taken a great deal of time, effort and patience to respond to religious apologetics, only to be rewarded with the same facile and fallacious rhetoric, endlessly and dishonestly repeated ad nausea. Often in a preachy contemptuous fashion.
So it is possible some of us get a little jaded from time to time, and that is hardly a surprise. However Joy has posted some of the worst homophobic bigotry I have seen on here, and while I have no problem with her being able to do that, I am not alone in finding such views detestable, and so I do think that coloured the debate from that point if I'm honest. As for Flatlander he is trolling, and has now even tacitly admitted it, and how much respect can I muster for someone who thinks rational debate involves repeating the same fallacious claims over and over and over again, while completely ignoring the substantive objections made, then resorting to the most puerile histrionics, where he claims he wants to commit a global genocide because atheists here are allowed to express their contempt for his facile and fallacious superstitious rhetoric? Don't even get me started on The Intruder, what an utter prat he was.
I will hold up my hand right now and say I can on occasion be overly irreverent when confronted with too much woo woo superstition, but no one has to read my posts after all, and if they do maybe some need not be quite so precious about it. I think religion has had too much it's own way for far too long, and I think beliefs and claims ought to be subjected to the most rigorous critical scrutiny, and if there are theists who don't want their beliefs treated in this way, then maybe an atheist debate forum is not for them.
Anyway it is refreshing to have our contributions held up to fresh scrutiny, even if ultimately we agree to disagree. Hope you stick around anyway.
That is well stated. I agree wholeheartedly with that. I feel like my message got out when I get feedback like that. I own some of the consternation I have bought but nothing ventured nothing gained. Thanks.
I am a bit hopped up on drugs at the moment, so conspiracy theory time. Please guys shoot the following theory out of the water:
What if top folks at the top of these powerful religious institutions know they have no real rebuttal to: it is all make believe, just like santa claus is, if you have zero demonstrable proof.
So they send a few guys to these forums to illicit responses from us, that makes us look hostile in attempt to discredit the atheist position. What is a couple hundred bucks hiring a few trolls to keep a dangerous idea away from their religion idea?
@Logic Re: "So they send a few guys to these forums to illicit responses from us,..."
Makes perfect sense to me.
@Sheldon: RE: "Some of us get Jaded."
I know you are talking about me. Stuff it Sheldon. I have had about all I can take of you. Running about with your fucking articulate, well structured and developed posts; constantly the voice of rationality (Except when you lose your shit.... Ha ha ha ha ha ha .... then your posts are really worth reading.) I am posting your information on the bathroom wall at the university and signing you up for as many lay away condo sites as I can find. "Some of us?" Ha! We all know who you mean. I am reporting this post to the mods!
Let's look at the first post Joy made on this forum. All I see in her first post was an expression of her philosophy and values.
"I’m not sure that’s fair. The Bible also condemns adultery and drunkenness. Is that the same as fostering hate? I’m pretty sure it is meant to point out the immorality of a behavior. We might all know someone who has committed adultery and not hate them or consider them some kind of evil monster, while at the same time recognizing adultery is wrong behavior.
I understand you may disagree that homosexual acts are immoral, but that is something that could be argued regardless of the Bible or belief in God."
The very first response she got included a question of how many slaves she owned. Draw your own conclusions. How is that germane to her post?
Here is an excerpt from the first response to her post.
"Edit to add: Oh, and why should I or anybody else give half a drop of rat piss what the bible says about anything?
Another edit: So, how many slaves do you own? And when was the last time you helped take an unruly child to the edge of town to stone it to death? Your bible seems perfectly okay with those, among other such practices. If you are walking to your car after leaving a restaurant and get attacked and raped, I'm sure you will be more than happy to marry the rapist who attacked you, right?"
Edited to add: not judging but is there just one other person on this forum who considers the response Joy got non-constructive?
Generally you will find that the people around here are genuinly polite and interested in giving information or having discussions with people who are interested in such stuff. You can not reference "Joy" and make that assertion. You could have probably done it if it was the very first post, but you can not do it this deep into the game. As far as Tin being a hypocrite, well hell, we all know that and love him just the same. What you probably need to try is a logical approach. Just cite his writings, where you found fault with them, and them call him an ASS. See how far that gets you! I would suggest, and I have not read the post you speak of, that you have actually entered a situation mid stream and are actually a bit lost. Just my opinion. In general, you are quite correct, no one new on the site should be subject to any form of abuse. Take their post for actual concern and address it appropriately until such time as them prove themselves to be inauthentic trolls. I don't think I am disagreeing with you on this. Cheers.
I thought the :How many slaves do you own?" Was completely appropriate. Why take values from one part of the bible and ignore the resto of it?
Unless she has been on in the form of another username, that was her first post (2/13/2020).
And that was the first response she got. In fact, she continued for a while being civil even though Tin-Man was an ASS. (ASS used as humor based on your instructions).
@Bright Raven: I thought Tin cleaned it up nicely and explained himself quite clearly. I probably would have had a similar reacton to the outright bigotry of Joy's post. There is nothing wrong with a natural human reaction. Joy expressed herself and Tin did the same. Where is the problem?
In the end.... If the mods agreed with you the post would have been removed and Tin would have gotten a little warning in his inbox. I know this for an absolute fact. \
Tin Man never was an ASS. Tin Man IS an ASS. Especially when he wants to be an ass. The magic of being a complete human being is that you have a front side and an ASS side. You get to choose which side you want to show to others.
Tin-Man got thrown into this only because he posted the first response to Joy. I did not read all of the posts she made pursuant to her OP.
Trust me, Moderators never agree with me. LMAO. But that has never hendered me. You can exile me, ban me, or call me names, but you cannot break the spirit of a Raven.
At the end of the day, I made my point. Here is my lament: I am looking for a forum which focuses on subject content that interests me and functions in accordance with the scientific method. I don't enjoy juvenile performances. But please don't hold that against me.
@Bright Raven: RE: "Trust me, Moderators never agree with me." I can see why? No problem. If you can live with it so can we. (I)
RE: "you cannot break the spirit of a Raven." Well, we are in complete agreement here. I have never seen a spirit. I have no idea what one is. I would not even begin to know how to break it. On the other hand, breaking a raven's neck is quite easy. You just grab it by the head like a chicken and give it a shake. M...m...m Blackbird Pie!
To get a "Scientific Discussion" you have to ask a "scientific question." Sorry if that is a bit obvious for you to grasp. Running about playing morality monitor is not going to get you very far on the site when it comes to scientific discussions. But HEY! WHO KNOWS! MAYBE I'M WRONG?
You are employing one of the common applications of the word "spirit".
Use this one and I bet you will see that you do have an idea of what one is.
those qualities forming the definitive character of a person. Such qualities as independence, honesty, resilience, etc. I certainly was NOT referencing spirit in the context of soul.
Bright Raven: Oh... Personality. We have real words for some things we pretend not to understand.
Oh Cog.... ;)
Oh goody -rules!!! I lovvveeeee rules! Etiquette too!
I found my type of people and I’m new. So as I fuckin have a smoke and read a shared opinion that nobody asked for, “I’m thinking ... so you don’t think we’re “as mature” or taking “the high road””. Well that’s fine. Find a forum that meets your expectations of adult behaviour. Otherwise shut the fuck up. Oh, that’s just my opinion.
Oh defender of the Joys and Flatlands of this world...
Nothing in that to respond to.
Only the spelling of "behaviour". I suspect you are not a US native.
BTW: I am totally sincere in my message and the purpose of this thread. I expected reaction of this nature. My intent was to be constructive. Rules are not needed. But if only a few Users take it the way it is intended, it might be a better forum.
@ Raven .... “ only a few Users take it the way it is intended, it might be a better forum.”
Nope not everyone on this forum is American. Would you like me to change my spelling to meet your high standards of forum exchange? U no, make it a bettr furom? Oops fuck, shit.... I fucked that up too... am I still allowed to swear? Just curious, ‘cause you know some people don’t like swearing, and I’d hate for fellow newbies to think I wasn’t being mature or anything...
I like you just how you are. The remark about the spelling of "behaviour" was an observation about adding the "u". That is characteristic of some British nations.
Ahhhh yah, I know about the differences in spelling.
...well I’ll tell you, I don’t like arrogant pricks .... hmmm maybe I’ll start a thread, you know a discussion... scout through a few past threads, cherry pick a few “high and mighty” comments - see if we can keep only the “immature, childish, posters on” - you know. Make it into one of those sites that gets “old fast”.
Anyhoo, I have to put on my adult hat now and do adult things...
I am for being polite especially to newcomers.
While we can never know for sure, "Joy" does has the unfortunate distinction of having a similar name to Joc and Jo. Similar writing style as well.
If it is all one and the same person, Joy is certainly not a newcomer, but actually one of our oldest regulars.
I at least personally would always like more folks to chat with, both the theist and atheist side. I would like to see these forums grow in popularity, perhaps more people can be helped.
These are labeled the atheist debate forums. I would recommend anyone sensitive to anonymous internet discourse to avoid those forums. The mods do the best they can, but if you stick around for long enough Bright Raven, and I hope you do, you will realize a lot of troll's, sock puppets, and preachers like to come by, drop their "load" and run. First dozen or so times you shrug it off, after a hundred you do start to get a bit sensitive to what almost feels like an endless stream of drive by preachers, trolls etc.
I for instance tend to keep my initial responses to "new" person post short, and as for the regulars basically respond in kind to how they been posting.
I was hoping to meet a fellow traveler on the High Road.
We all define who we are by what we say, post, write, etc. The reaction to this thread is not a surprise. But I believe that what comes "out of the lips" is not revealing of what a person is willing to acknowledge. I think what I posted will resonate with some users. Maybe only one but it is worth my effort.
This is just me: I make an effort to be lucid, honest and civil. I don't insult, call names, or use disgusting language. Others have to be who they are.
I will tell you we have had a few regulars on the atheist side removed in the past. The mods do not discriminate, even if they rather try warnings first. I say trust in the moderators and the tone they set.
If the tone here is completely off for you I recommend try sticking to just the hub side of things.
Or you can try being the voice of how you think theist that are here should see. Be part of the solution to the problem you see. Or just take off, this is just an open internet forum after all.
I would rather you stick around and add your own flavor. Just dont expect things to change over night.
Thank you. Friend, I have low expectations of change. In fact, sometimes you hold a mirror up and those who don't like what they see double down.
The theist/atheist debate has about run its course for me personally. I enjoyed it immensely in undergraduate and graduate school. It always comes back to theist have "faith". I am looking for a life science subject. Animal science is great because the range of topics is huge - reproductive physiology, immunology, nutrition, breeding, genetics, calving, management practices, etc. I am looking for something of that nature.
Let me offer another observation. I know I haven't been here long but if the primary attraction here is waiting for theist to fly into the cobweb so Users can play like big tough intellectuals and bash them, man, that is not my kind of entertainment. If others enjoy that, more power to them.
I won't deny that sometimes, I do feel a bit like a spider with its web. Except I don't eat them, I learn from them. I will admit sometimes I do enjoy pointing out lies, hypocrisy etc. Like anyone I get frustrated have a bad day, etc.
I actually have a fair amount of anxiety right now about the economic fall out of covid-19, these forum can be an excellent distraction for me. And if a theist wants to come to an atheist debate board, yeah I might zap him a bit in my own way.
But really I am here for the regulars. Folks I have gotten to know over the years, we all have a similar topic to talk about, and we even have a group activity of sorts, chatting with theist looking to debate. Plus this is usually stuff you can not really talk about or do in person, people get too heated in person.
Debate can lead to further conversation, and a reason for some of us to keep coming back.
I learned a while back, It is highly unlikely I am going to change something as large as someone's religion/beliefs in anonymous forums no matter how well I debate. So that is not what I am here for. But like others have said, perhaps a lurker or two might learn a thing or 2. I know I learn new things here all the time.
@Logic Re: "While we can never know for sure, "Joy" does has the unfortunate distinction of having a similar name to Joc and Jo. Similar writing style as well."
Damn, I'm so glad you said that. I was having the same suspicions, but wondered if it was just my imagination. Plus, I detect a touch of Breezy in there as well.
@BR Re: OP
...*chuckle*... Wow. Helluva thing to wake up to in the morning. And I ain't even had my first cup of coffee yet... lol... Guess I really know how to make a good first impression... *chuckle*...
Howdy, Bright. Top o' the day to ya. So, uh, just to get this out of the way real quick, what Cog said is true: I AM an ASS... *grin*... And as for my frequent "juvenile behavior"... *raising hand*... Guilty as charged. If it makes you feel any better, though, it is by intentional design. I have an incredibly... ummmmm... well, let's call it diverse sense of humor, and this site gives me ample opportunities to deploy it with a group of folks who enjoy a good laugh now and then. (My wife just rolls her eyes at me and shakes her head most of the time. That's no fun.. *frowning*...)
Thing is, there are many other members here who have the knowledge and patience to engage "troublesome" visitors in a more even and straightforward manner. But that just isn't my style. Sure, I will be serious whenever it is warranted. But whenever there is somebody being utterly ridiculous and intentionally antagonistic, I will not hesitate to meet foolishness with an equal or greater level of foolishness. It's just what I do... *shrugging shoulders*...
By the way, for the sake of clarification, I'm not in any way insulted or upset by your observations/remarks. Hell, I admire your candor, truth be told... *chuckle*... Something you might want to consider, however... From my personal experience from twenty years with the police department and seventeen years in the military, if you are a new guy joining a new group, it is usually best not to judge a book by its cover until you get to know everybody better... *chuckle*... And, as I said before, good having you with us, Raven.
Thanks. I truly appreciate that. I spent 33 years in enforcement. I didn't tote a firearm although I have been a lifelong firearms owner. I shot registered trap and competed in Defensive Pistol. I used a Wilson Combat 1911 Close Quarter Battle. .45 ACP. I have hunted all of North America and Africa. Zimbabwe, Botswana, and Republic of South Africa. I shot long range rifle in Montana. 6.5 × .284 Cooper Montanan Model. I do carry but rarely. Most of my enforcement was shining a seat with my ass writing enforcement actions.
Spent 20 years on patrol in a large department (a thousand or so officers, give or take) in the worst section of town in a major city full of violent crime and drug activity. It was a blast. Carried a Glock 21, .45 ACP. It was out of the holster almost as much as it was in the holster on any given day... *chuckle*...
I was in the Army National Guard at the same time. One Afghanistan deployment. Two Iraq deployments. I always like to tell people I saw more "action" in the city where I worked here in the States than I ever saw during my deployments in combat zones... lol... (Sadly, it's not even a joke.)
I like rifles, and I practically grew up with one in my hands. Oddly enough, though, I prefer pistols. I have a nice little .308 bolt-action I set up if needed, and I enjoy the challenge of using the scope for distant shots. However, "long-range" for me is only 200 to 300 yards. A sniper I ain't... *grin*... I'm more of a CQB shooter.