Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
Log in or create an account to join the discussions on the Atheist Republic forums.
Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
FREE E-BOOKS
Get the book "Why There Is No God" and one more book for FREE!
Sign up below for the Atheist Republic Newsletter to get the books.
Record Your Message!
Record your voice here for it to be aired on the Atheist Republic Voicemails Podcast.
Send us your views and opinions, your personal stories, messages of support, comments on recent news, or any comments you would like to share about your part of the world.
Note : By clicking record you are allowing us to broadcast your message on any of our platforms.
Affiliate Disclaimer
Links to atheist related books, shirts and movies and other atheism related products are affiliate links.
All proceeds will go to keeping the Atheist Republic website up and running; providing resources, advocacy, community tools and encouragement to atheists all over the world.
I don't have time to dig up the research right now, but I'd encourage you to look into the affects of hormone treatment on transwomen. It absolutely decreases muscle mass and strength, as well as emotional traits such as aggression. I'm not educated enough to know whether they decrease to the average levels of ciswomen, but transwomen on hormone treatment have very different bodies and emotional traits than cismen. Just a thing to keep in mind.
That is true, the problem that arises though is when taking estrogen, as it maintains bone density.
@Logic
If you mean gender = sex (which I don’t think you do) then I would agree. For me, gender = equal sex which means there are only 2 genders. I figured I’d mention that so you know exactly what I mean when I say gender or sex
Anyway, everything I am going to say after this sentence should be taken in the context of sports and the topic we are discussing and not in any other context.
This would cause FAR FAR FAR more problems than it will ever solve. I was an amateur and professional boxer for 7 years, If I woke up and identified as a female should I be able to box in the women’s division? For sake of argument, hypothetically speaking if you had a sister/niece/mother that was a pro boxer would you find it fair for me, who now identifies as a female, to get in the ring with them? Would you really want a professional trained genetically male fighter fighting one of your female loved ones?
This is a natural competitive edge a person has based off their DNA they did not choose to be 7’2, they made the best out of what they are naturally born with. Not one they get through hormone manipulation. As far as I can tell there is no hormone manipulation that can make someone taller, and even if there is that is not the topic of discussion nor is it a “hot topic” in sports or anywhere else. And there are various positions in various sports for people of all sizes.
Yes, and for obvious reason. I am not sure what your point is here.
Completely irrelevant to this whole transgender in sports issue. Non Sequitur
In their own division.
Sports should be about fairness, not trying to please people based off their feelings.
I absolutely love and applaud the USA powerlifting for their stance and how they worded their stance on transgenders in powerlifting. Link below.
https://www.outsports.com/2019/2/1/18204036/usa-powerlifting-trans-athle...
"In addition to OP’s article look up the transgender high school wrestler in Texas."
I'm assuming you're referring to Mack Beggs, the transman who wanted to compete against the boys at his highschool but the rules don't allow it, so he competed against the girls and won the state title 2 years in a row? He didn't *want* to compete against the girls, they've forced him to. Sounds like they should just allow him to play against the boys... because he's a boy. But you said players should complete according to their gender assigned at birth, which is exactly what he's doing when they make him play against the girls. But you're saying in order to do that, he, as a highschooler, shouldn't be able to take the testosterone that his doctor has prescribed for him for health reasons? Or instead of telling him he has to go against medical advice, you could just let him play against the boys.
Also, he's already received a college scholarship offer for a men's wrestling program.
Very interesting Stone Jade and thank you for the insight in to that particular case.
It begs the question,
Is it ok to mix sexes in a sport providing the minority group or individual has no physiological nor biological advantage?
As in the case of the female to male trans person competing with boys...
And we still not allow male to female mixing due to the unfair advantages.
Or stop both in order to not discriminate one over the other?
I'd say you have to accept all or not allow all... but it must be one or the other.
Either sport is subject to gender or biological sex and stick to that.
@Stone Jade
Correct.
She would have had 0 chance against the boys, for the simple fact that man are just naturally stronger than women. Than you add the fact that the guys are a LOT stronger than your average dude and you can see how she’s at an extreme disadvantage. Take it from the flip side and you can see how she had a HUGE advantage over the girls since she was juiced up on testosterone.
See above reply. Plus, no she’s a biological female, she can say and identify as whatever she wants on her own time but, when its starts effecting all the competitors in both divisions (male and female) there are rules and biological truths that should be upheld.
Yes, but she holds an unfair advantage being juiced up on testosterone. Which should have automatically gotten her disqualified as I would imagine juicing up is against the rules.
Health reasons? This is an extremely WIDE topic and up for debate but, let’s not get in to that. However, if it truly is for “health reasons” then she should worry about her “health” instead of wanting to wrestle.
At the end of the day, as I said in my reply to Logic. Sports should be about fairness in all aspects of that sport. Had this been a gaming “sport” or poker (which some consider a sport) then it would make no difference. If you are talking about a sport that actually requires any form of physical strength then, the first and last criteria for determining which division a person should be in, should be their biological make up. Assuming they meet all the other rules, such as not being any kind of steroids and whatnot.
It seems grossly and intentionally cruel that you chose to call Mack "she" through your entire post. Seriously uncalled for. But I have a feeling that you probably don't care that intentionally using the wrong pronouns can be deeply offensive and hurtful. And maybe you don't care, or just don't know, that the suicide attempt rate for transguy teens in the U.S. is 50%. Half of them. But there's research showing that trans teens who are raised in homes and communities that are supportive of them have levels of depression the same as their cisgender peers. They're healthy and normal functioning kids. All of us working to show support and respect to trans kids saves lives. There may be a trans teenager reading your post right now, and I'm pretty pissed about that.
"She would have had 0 chance against the boys, for the simple fact that man are just naturally stronger than women."
Is that so? Strange, then, that a university has already given him a *scholarship* to compete in their *men's* league.
And I don't see any convincing argument from you about why he couldn't have been allowed to compete with the boys. Because.... you don't view him as a "real" guy and only "real" guys with "real" penises can play in the penis league? That has nothing to do with the fairness you've been touting. You made a comment earlier about how sport should be about fairness and not people's feelings. It sounds like your feelings are the reason here, not fairness.
{Edited to add a missing word.}
^^^ That ^^^
Re: Mack Beggs
Just looked up some pics and vids of the dude. Got news for ya... Based on what I saw, I have to admit that guy looks like he would be a handful even for ME on the mat. Got the impression he could have certainly held his own ground against his high school male peers. No doubt he would have preferred that, also. Careful, Hulkster, your bigotry is showing again... *tsk-tsk-tsk*...
@stone
On the contrary, I am actually referring to her using the grammatically correct pronouns based off her biological truth. Which is in no way shape or form meant as disrespect. If people have a problem with those truths, I am not person to talk to in order to solve that problem for them. You’re also talking about the scholarship she got and whatnot, that’s completely irrelevant to the main topic but, rant on if you wish.
@Hulkster Re: "On the contrary, I am actually referring to her using the grammatically correct pronouns based off her biological truth."
C'mon, man, really? THAT is your excuse? Is it really that painful for you to use male gender terms for the kid? Is it truly that difficult for you to show even the slightest amount of respect for who he is? Wow... Just wow....
I want to see SFT go three rounds with Rhonda Rousey, "PLEASE GOD LET IT HAPPEN LIVE ON YOUTUBE!"
2 things monkey friend
1) Rhonda got KO’d by 2 different chicks. She can’t beat a chick you think she can fight a guy? Lol
2) Your reply proves you’ve never been in a ring
Crazy how some people willfully and simply deny basic biological truths
Edited to fix typos
SfT, you wrote, “1) Rhonda got KO’d by 2 different chicks. She can’t be a chick you think she can fight a guy? Lol”
Chicks?
There was a match with poultry?
Oh! Now I get it! You were using a derisive term for human females! SfT, we aren’t poultry. “Crazy how some people willfully and simply deny basic biological truths”, isn’t it?
May I chime in here SfT...
As someone who holds a black belt and teaches wing chun kung fu and that studies Brazilian ju jitsu.
Some of your comment is not entirely accurate!
A women can compete with men to a degree in the right situations or disciplines especially in my fields where physical strength is literally used against you.
I would say it's when it's just pure striking I.e. boxing where women will struggle vs a man.
Or ironically as Rousey did against Holm when Holm dragged it into a striking match and displayed her pedigree as a former world champion boxer.
But as I said in a real fight or in certain disciplines like BBJ, if you made one mistake and she slapped on say an arm bar, your tapping out! I don't care who you are.
If you don't have the skills, she'd do serious damage.
It's all about levels.
@Random
Bravo!... *clapping enthusiastically*... I've had a hodge-podge of martial arts and various other types of combative training over the years, along with countless real-world confrontation experiences (some of them literally being life and death). And there is one thing for certain I have learned out of all of that. It is a rather old saying, but oh-so true: "It ain't always about the size of the dog in the fight. Often it is about the size of the fight in the dog." I have dealt with guys twice my size I have been able to take down with minimum to moderate effort. Then there have been times it has taken me plus three or four other guys to take down an individual (sometimes female) considerably smaller than me. Skill levels, mindset, narcotics influence, mental impairments, and various other factors all play a major role in who will win a fight. Male or female are way down near the bottom of that list, in my opinion.
Couldn't have said it better myself Tin Man, that is spot on.
I've even recently dealt with this, as I have a roughly 6ft 6 biker training in wing chun under me (loveliest guy ever btw)... but although he has undeniable power advantages, as well as strength... I could counter all day long with my skill sets (that said, I'm not small either, sticky 6 footer lol).
And on the flip side we have a young Asian lady with a long back ground in jujitsu and judo, who if she gets you on the ground... well, good luck with that!!!
In fact she is the one who inspired me to take up BBJ in order to have a well rounded ground component to my martial arts knowledge.
As I always say, it's about levels.
@Random
Thank you for your input.
A women can compete with a man in anything but, just because she can that does not mean it’s a fair fight. If you were to take 2 of your students (male and female) that are on the same belt level and they had to have a real life fight. Who would win? The female would have to get incredibly and extremely lucky to beat the guy. Pure and raw strength in addition to bone density and just the physical nature of a man in comparison to a women is a MUCH MUCH bigger factor then some people want to admit. When I used to compete we had female boxers come to our gym and spar with men. Why? Because the men were faster and stronger, so those women knew that if they could if hang with a guy (who was not going 100% of course) then a female boxer would be way easier. Can a trained women beat an untrained man? Absolutely but not always. What if that guy simply KO’d her or picked her up and slammed her down? While training is definitely an advantage the pure strength and average size different still plays a major role. Anyway, that is not the topic of discussion here. The main point of discussion is when you have highly trained men and women competing against each other, is it fair? And that answer is an astounding NO way.
Well maybe you are right, and for the sake of argument I'll assume you are. But even then, why stop them? You think they are going to fail? Fine, give them the chance to fail.
@Nyar
Because it takes away from the credibility of the sports, let alone undermines the athletes that have been training for years. There are separate divisions and rules for a reason. The biological realties pay a HUGE role. In the article in the OP, there’s a biological reason these guys set new records for a women’s division.
Oh and saying “fine, give them a chance to fail”, would you give the same chance if a Mike Tyson wanted to fight some 140 pounder for the belt? The stance of just “give them the chance” has to go both ways.
It seems that you may not know of the effects testosterone can have. Take a look at a few photos of these trans men and then let me know if you think they might be able to hold their own with other men:
Check out this buff dude who was in the running to be on the cover of Men's Health magazine:
http://time.com/3827293/trans-man-mens-health-cover/
And this pro trans boxer who won his first fight against a cisman:
https://www.latimes.com/sports/boxing/la-sp-pat-manuel-fight-20181208-st...
Look at the physical changes in this dude who shared his transition photos:
https://www.boredpanda.com/transgender-man-before-and-after-jamie-wilson...
I don't see how letting transguys compete with other dudes affects the credibility of sports or the athletes that play in them. Because of their genitals? Because of their DNA? For some transguys, you literally wouldn't even know they were trans unless they told you. So who does that hurt?
Also, you're aware that they let skinny, small boys wrestle, right? It's not like there aren't any cisboys the same size as Mack. You don't pair those small boys with the biggest guys either.
I'd genuinely ignore that if I was you, the person who lost was a woeful club level boxer with an 0-6 record.
Furthermore it was a 4 round decision win, so takes the gloss off of it.
This is in a division consisting of Gervonta Davis.
In fact I would wager Patricio would not last 3 rounds vs a British level champion nor a US golden gloves winner.
My actual concern would be the trans Male could get badly hurt!
Men have larger bone structures, higher bone density, more muscle mass, on average larger fists and wrists etc...
I felt the same way about trans female Fallon fox fighting MMA against biological women... low and behold she knocked out and concussed multiple opponents of hers.
Welp, that's what I get for commenting on sports I know nothing about! Ha. Woops. Thanks for the correction.
And yeah, I totally get the concern about people getting hurt. However, this seems a concern for the safety of people with lower muscle mass, bone density, body size, etc. rather than a concern about transmen in particular. Scrawny cisdudes are at risk too. Safety has to be determined on the particular person and the sport being discussed. My best friend just ran a 50k (31 mile) race and his body couldn't accomplish that before he transitioned and went on testosterone. There are bodies for whom that race would be too much (like mine. I'd die!). It seems wise to be careful, regardless of gender.
That is not what I'm suggesting; and I'm pretty sure you know that.
I love that you made this point. We give high school kids the opportunity to try out for sports and not make the team or end up being the worst player. Why not this kid?
I haven't heard anyone claim that Mack would win championships if he was able to play with the guys, and he'd probably be in the lowest weight class, but it's hard for me to imagine that he, as the champion in the girl's league, wouldn't be able to hold his ground with at least a few of the guys. But in line with what you said, even if he's the worst kid on the team, there's *always* a worst kid. Give this kid a shot to be the worst!
@ Mods/Admins: I apologize if this post is too much. However, I have grown weary of SfT's bigoted and hate speech. If you feel it must be deleted, then do so. Otherwise, thank you for your understanding and forgiveness.
@ NOT Searching for truth
As soon as I saw the title of this thread and Randomhero1982 started it, I knew you would have to jump into here to spew the diarrhea of your bigotry and hate speech.
Please take your bigotry to an Islamic website where they would appreciate your rhetoric.
Intelligent people were actually trying to have a civil discussion in this thread. However, you had to bring your bigotry here and turn it into your special thread to spew your hate speech. It is not welcome. I am fairly certain others here agree with me.
Are you also now saying you are going to be man enough to answer the questions Sheldon has asked you repeatedly? Or are you going to continue to pretend to be a coward?
All you ever do is dodge these question because of two reasons:
So much for "searching for truth" when you are too afraid of it.
rmfr
@Arakish
Personally, dude, I think you handled that quite well. If I may, however, there is one little thing I noticed that seemed "questionable"....
You said, "Or are you going to continue to pretend to be a coward?"
Ummm... Are we really so sure he is pretending? Just wondering... *shrugging shoulders*...
@Thread and Tin-Man
That one of the key things I never understood, why are folks so worried about transgenders? How many of those people have actually been harmed in any way by transgender person if they were just fine with tolerance and acceptance anyways? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000?
The other 9,999 people that dislike (actually it is fear,) transgender people... why? Just because they are a bit different? Oh I know why, duh! Religion.
I have heard of maybe 1 or 2 atheist that dislike/scared of transgenders and I know a fair amount of atheist. The other 1000's of people I interacted with, mostly online, that dislike (scared of) transgenders are all... you guess it! Religious to at least to some degree.
Just another example of why all the major religions are horrible, they pour on the fear, and through fear, normal decent people start becoming irrational and start harming people that could most use everyone's support and acceptance.
If anyone here still does not get it.. I could find and link people to a little picture quiz online, where it shows pictures of men and women, some of them transgender and asks which would you like your young daughter/sister/etc as well as young son/brother to end up sharing a public restroom with.
Even someone like me a: lgbtq ally, failed the quiz. (I personally was fine with all of them in either public bathroom,) where it turned out I was fine the young (early 20's) attractive female gender and biological sex female, that in reality, unfortunately very successfully lured many little girls out of bathrooms and other locations into the arms of sex traffickers as well as participating in her own sexual assault, and the very nice looking normal looking guy (done on purpose to gain trust and avoid suspicion) that was convicted of 3 different sexual assaults that began in a public male bathroom, and highly suspected of many more.
The point the quiz was making was that you cannot spot who could mean harm, certainly not by appearance, sexual predators blend in and take advantage of ill conceived biases. No one is going to expect 70 year old looking hunched over looking grandma wearing her sunday best with the glasses that is very polite and sweet to be a sexual predator, and predators know that. The transgender person or simply a cross dresser that you can actually notice and spot? Not exactly a blend in profile a sexual predator is looking for. The transgender you cannot spot? Well if you frequent public restrooms with any sort of regularity, you probably already shared a public restroom with one and not even know it and miracle of miracles you got out alive and intact.
And then throw in that religious leaders of just about any major religion has 2x to 10x (or more!) rates of sexual deviancy towards children then just about any other profession or population group. If people are scared of transgenders due to possible sexual deviancy, they are looking in the wrong place.
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
@Logic
...*standing on chair cheering*.... Outstanding!... *looking around*... Now where the hell is that "1000 Agrees" button?
⇑ ⇑ ⇑ ⇑ ⇑ me do that too, except I can do my branches like pompoms ⇑ ⇑ ⇑ ⇑ ⇑
7734! I even dated a transgender. As I have said SHE was a most wonderful and intelligent person. Sometimes I sit at home missing being with her. I have never looked at what a person was, I always look at the person as they is. Yes, subject-verb disagreement was purposeful.
I mean, if a transgender is so damned evil, wicked, mean, and nasty, why do I find myself missing being with HER? Think Critically about that.
I was married to the most wonderful and beautiful woman to ever come into existence. Of course I am biased, but that has nothing to with how I view other persons. Me wife and I created the most wonderful and beautiful and absolutely genius twin daughters. Twin daughters that were head and shoulders above mine own intelligence, making me look like an imbecilic retard. Yet, I actually found solace with a transgender that understood what me wife and daughters meant to me and completely accepted the fact that they would always have a large part of my heart. Yet, I was able to find enough room in that heart to actually "love" a transgender? What does that make me? A horrible and nasty person? If that is what you want to think, then I have an explicit set of directions of what you can do yourself. And no it does not involve violence, or a threat thereof. Just a funny contortionist act.
rmfr
EDIT: As for my true feelings about transgenders in sports, I am still unresolved on that issue. But I do tend to side with them.
Pages