(Just got to share this... I apologize in advance if it gets a bit lengthy...)
Who would've ever thought that a Jehovah's Witness could bring so much joy to a person's day?... *grin*... But, believe it or not, that is exactly what happened to me earlier today. There I was in my kitchen finishing up my morning coffee, when I looked out the window into our garage and noticed two people standing outside the open garage door. They looked confused, as if trying to decide whether or not to walk through the garage to knock on the inner door to our kitchen. It was an elderly white male in a nice shirt and tie holding a briefcase, and a black female of equal age in a modest looking dress. It was quite obvious who they were and why they were there. Well, lucky for me (but maybe not so lucky for them) I actually had a bit of spare time to kill this morning... *mischievous snicker*... Therefore, I went out to greet them with a friendly welcome and a smile. Standard introductions were made, and then things got fun...
The female was the primary talker, while the male mostly stood silent and observed. (Maybe she was in training? I don't know... *shrugging shoulders*...) So, the very first topic of discussion was centered around the coming "end of the world" as prophesied in the bible based on current world events and disorders. ("The END is NEAR!") She read a few bible verses to me from her i-Pad and equated them to all the recent troubles happening in Iraq/Iran. And then, basically, I was asked how/what I felt about that. Long story short, I mentioned there have been countless "world events and disorders" over the past several centuries that people of many different religious sects used to claim the end of time was near. Yet, here we still are. (At this point, by the way, I had not told them I am an atheist.) Not knowing how to respond to that (along with a few other little details I mentioned during my explanation), she hesitated a bit, causing the male to chime in and ask me, "Do you know the God in the bible has a name?" (Oh, boy. Did he really just go there?... *chuckle*...)
I ventured a "guess" and answered, "Uhhh... Are you talking about YHWH?" He blinked as if surprised, and then replied, "Well, yes, but we prefer Jehovah. Or we often refer to Jesus. Because there are many different languages in the world, each one using their own translations. Since we speak English here in America, then those are the translations we prefer to use." (Yes, ladies and gentlemen, he DID open that door.) Trying not to make this OP a novel, so suffice it to say my reply to him on that took us all down the road to thousands of different sects based on that one "Perfect Book" that can be interpreted in many different ways depending on how an individual prefers to read it. Even touch upon the languages from the original scrolls that did not use punctuation, along with how the "Perfect Bible" was re-written, edited, translated across many different languages over hundreds of years, and interpreted by the scribes according to how the ruler-in-charge wanted them interpreted to meet personal agendas. The entire time I am being friendly, relaxed, smiling, and simply matter-of-fact with my replies. Well, he stalled, and the female stepped back into the ring, and somehow the subject got changed over to Adam and Eve. I swear, I thought I was gonna start dancing a jig... lol...
I can cover the Garden of Eden Adam/Eve discussion during the thread. Besides, I have to make a few notes to remind myself of everything that was covered in that. For now, though, I come to my favorite part of the meeting. And, honestly, I do not believe they actually walked straight into the trap the way they did. At one point the male made mention of the fact that the bible is meant to be taken as a learning tool sent to us by God. And he actually stated that everything in it was the "perfect word of God." (Warning: The squeamish may want to turn away at this point.) I simply could NOT let that go unchecked. So, I told both of them, "So, just to make sure we are all on the same page, the God in the bible is omniscient and omnipotent, right? He knows EVERYTHING, and he can DO ANYTHING. And he is PERFECT. Are we in agreement on that?" Both of them were enthusiastically, "Oh, absolutely! God knows everything and can do anything and NEVER makes any mistakes." (Okay, that's what I expected. Good so far.) I continued by saying, "Okay, good. I didn't want to make any assumptions. Now, you believe the bible is the perfect word of God, and everything in it should be followed by Man from the time it was written until the day this world comes to an end, right?" Again, very confident and enthusiastic nods of agreement. (Uh, this ain't gonna be pretty, folks. Last chance to turn away.) So, I looked straight at the female and asked, "Then why do we no longer own slaves?" The look on her face was priceless. But before either of them could respond I continued, "Because in that bible, the perfect word of God says it is perfectly okay for one human to own another human as property, yet that practice is now illegal in our society." The male just stood there with his jaw hanging down to his knees. And after a brief stunned silence, the lady made a weak attempt to counter by saying, "Well, that was then and this is now. God no longer condones slavery. Besides, we are all God's servants because he made us and owns us." (Aw, so sad. But at least she tried, I guess.) Naturally, my response was, "No. Sorry. But we are not talking about a God owning his creations. We are talking about humans owning other humans as property. And in that bible the perfect word of God even gives very specific instructions on who to own, how to own, how to pass them down to children as property, and how to treat them. God even tells the slaves to obey their masters, even if those masters are brutally abusive. Oh, and where in the bible did God ever abolish slavery?" Her reply, "Uh, well, uh, it, uh, doesn't actually SAY it directly, but..." I politely interrupted with, "It does not say it at all anywhere in the bible, as far as I know. MAN actually outlawed slavery and made it unacceptable in society." The female, "Yeah, well, I suppose you are right." At which point I said, "So, you are telling me that Man is to follow EVERYTHING in the bible as laid out by God who is perfect, yet Man abolished slavery, thereby overruling God? Personally, I find the concept of slavery to be extremely appalling. Yet, in that bible, it is very clearly condoned by your perfect God. And that is why I do not follow the "rules" based on the writings of ancient nomads from over two thousand years ago who had no knowledge of modern science and technology." (Time for exit strategy, boys and girls...)
Feet shuffled uncomfortably. Watches were checked. "Oh, dear. We really need to go. Many other people to see. We would really love to stay and discuss these things more, but we are just rushed for time today, . Would you mind if we come back another day? We would like to do some research on some of the things you told us so that we can talk with you more about them later." By golly, absolutely. Please come back whenever you can. I am usually here in the afternoons, and I would love to continue our discussion. (Calm and relaxed with friendly beaming smile the whole time.) I really do hope to see them again soon. That was the first time I have ever had that much fun with JW's. Can't wait for Round Two... *impish grin*...
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Oh TIN: Great Job! Didn't you know the word "Jehovah" is a 16th Century mistranslation of Yahweh? You gotta remember that one for the next time.
Good job you heartless Tin Man.
Dude, I was practically giddy by the time they left. Spent the rest of the day in a great mood with a little extra lightness in my steps. Oh, and the Adam/Eve discussion of the encounter was PRICELESS. Will try to elaborate on that more once I have a chance to make my notes... lol...
Aaww dang. I just wish I was there watching you do your "Amiable Southern Gentleman" Clark Gable impression whilst knifing them to death with knives so sharp they didn't know they were dead till they saw the blood . . You bastard. You suckered em in and jest laid them out sirree with a big cheese eatin' grin on your face the whole time.
LOL, no wonder I have an effigy of you above my computer....Boom...I could almost hear their brain cells disintegrating from down here.
You are a champ.
@Old Man Re: "You suckered em in and jest laid them out sirree with a big cheese eatin' grin on your face the whole time."
Can't help myself. Comes from all those years on the streets interviewing bad guys and various witnesses. Play dumb. Ask questions to which I already know the answers. Act friendly as though I really want to learn from them. Let them dig the hole deeper and deeper until.... *BOING!*... Trap is sprung, and they have to backpedal and/or contradict themselves in a futile attempt to escape. Apparently, old habits are hard to break. I enjoyed it immensely... *Cheshire grin*... I only wish they hadn't scooted away so quickly. I was just getting warmed up.
Edit to add: Actually, they are very fortunate they got away when they did. Turns out, I walked back in the house to find the wifey headed out to join us. (She had been getting ready for work.) If they thought I was a challenge, then they would have been absolutely annihilated into wispy vapor by HER... LMAO...
Have these Bible-thumpers even read the bloody book? Next time they knock sell them St Paul's Cathedral. They're obviously in the habit of signing their lives away without reading the small print.
@Algebe Re: "Have these Bible-thumpers even read the bloody book? "
I rather wondered about that, because they said they wanted to go "research a few things" before continuing the discussions.... *chuckle*...
By the way, what do you think a fair asking price would be for the cathedral?... lol...
In JW lingo "research a few things" does not mean that they sit down with their bible book to read, but it means asking their elders about the things they could not answer. Then they come back with their canned, rehearsed replies. They are not allowed to use their own brains.
I sure wish I could have witnessed this massacre.
The only minus to my general strategy of ending conversations in scenarios like what JW and tin-man did, is that it usually ends it before it even starts:
I at first available opportunity typically ask for real evidence to their particular god claim, and then almost inevitably point out a few seconds later, that their holy book is not evidence, the conversation usually dies quickly after that, because well they got nothing. They usually offer to read some prepared passage, which depending on my mood I may listen to if I am not in a hurry. Last few encounters like that for me started and finished in under 2 minutes.
Now I realize I am possibly missing out on some fun. Although sadly its rare I have the free time to pursue it at greater length.
Lucky you! I have not had a visit from them since I was a practicing Baptist 30 years ago. (now ex believer)
My angle at the time was trying to get them to see they were just door to door salesmen for the Watchtower Book Club and that THEY were actually confused as to why they were really visiting me. I held them for around 45 minutes or so but could not get them to see the light. I had my facts lined up and was prepared. They left angry with me.
Ahhh. It was a long time ago, but I still remember it was a hoot!
@FreeAtLast Re: "Lucky you! I have not had a visit from them since I was a practicing Baptist 30 years ago."
Luckier than you might think. We've had visits here from the JW's before, because there is a JW temple less than ten minutes from our house. However, the last time they visited was roughly two years ago, shortly after I escaped my "religiousity." So at that time I was still trying to get reoriented and was in no position to attempt a debate. Therefore, the wife and I politely declined their invitation for discussion and made it clear that neither of us were fans of the bible. (She is Pagan, by the way.)
Basically, when they left that day, we were fairly certain we would be put on some sort of "Don't go there" list and not be bothered anymore. Ever since then, though, as I became more and more confident and comfortable with my new-found freedom, there has always been a small part of me that hoped the JW's would some day return. And so they did. (Happy days!) Now I just hope I gave them enough encouragement to keep their word about coming back to continue our discussion. Cheap entertainment, at the very least... lol...
Edit to add: Oh, by the way, welcome to our madhouse here at the Mighty AR. Been reading your posts in the other threads. Great having you with us.
Thanks Tin-Man. From what I see, I think I found a great forum.
@Free Re: "Thanks Tin-Man. From what I see, I think I found a great forum."
Yep, as you have seen, we tend to have a good time on here. And as I have said many times before, this site played a major role in helping me get through my transition. Some really great folks on here from a wide range of backgrounds spread all across the globe. Much fun to be had if you hang around long enough.
I am waiting for the day that they come to my home. (I did this once before but did not video tape them.) I want to invite them in, turn on the video cameras, tell them I need to check the mail or laundry, and then just leave the house. My plan would be to go to a local coffee shop for an hour. While I am there I will be smiling, reading the morning paper, and enjoying a cup of coffee as I anticipate my return and the video results.
Should they be there when I return, after an hour or so.... I will just tell them I got involved in a conversation with a neighbor and forgot them. (Invite them in and do it again? Ha ha ha ha .... Or have a discussion with them as the video continues running?)
As soon as you mentioned the lady with them, I sensed the trap. Well done Tin-Man. They walked into the trap better then you could of ever hoped for.
People dealing in absolutes are easy to demolish in debates.
@Logic Re: "They walked into the trap better then you could of ever hoped for."
I know, right? I could not believe it was that easy to set them up like that. Makes me wonder what kinds of people they normally deal with around here, because - truth be told - I do not have much experience in face to face debates in regards to religions. Meaning I still consider myself a novice. Although, I admit the dumb look on my face probably helps me a bit. Gives them a false sense of security, maybe? Thankfully, playing dumb comes naturally to me... *grin*...
Experience isn't needed as long as you remember, THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THEM. Look at Sheldon's posts. He is excellent at returning to the basics. "How do you know it and what empirical evidence do you have to support your claim?" The Bible is the claim and not the evidence. You really don't have to do a lot when it comes to the claims the theists make if you understand that they actually do not know what they are talking about. They are just making unfounded assertions.
@Cog Re: "Experience isn't needed as long as you remember, THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THEM."
Oh, absolutely. I totally understand that. I've picked up many excellent and useful little pointers like that on here over the last couple of years. However, as you know, there's a big difference between debating on here as opposed to being face to face with somebody.
On here is easy. Plenty of time to read a post and then step away to think it over, if necessary. And when typing a response, you have as long as you want to form your answer, make corrections, consult reference material, etc. Or, just totally ignore the post altogether. No real pressure.
On the other hand, having a face-to-face discussion eliminates most of those conveniences/advantages. And this ol' rust-bucket brain of mine ain't nearly as fast as it use to be... *chuckle*... Nevertheless, I actually enjoy having discussions such as the last tango with the two JW's. Problem, though, is that I have very, very few opportunities for such entertainment. Therefore, I still consider myself a novice in that area. Even so, there are a couple of advantages I have that help make up for my lack of religious debate experience.
One, all those years on the streets having to interview/interrogate people have made me comfortable with talking to folks of all different ages and backgrounds. More importantly, though, it made me highly tuned to detecting inconsistencies, deflections, evasiveness, and omissions in what people say. Plus, being able to read body language and facial expressions is definitely a big help.
Two (And this is the important one for me.), discussing religion has become nothing more than cheap entertainment for me now. Unlike all those many grueling years before, I no longer have any emotional investment in any of it. If anything, the subject of religion has become more of a curious fascination for me. I spent a vast majority of my life feeling incredibly uncomfortable and disturbed at the mere mention of religion, and as such I avoided the topic as much as possible. I was just way too uncertain, with one part of my brain stuck in my Christian indoctrination, and the other part of my brain screaming at me that none of it made sense. It was an almost constant tug of war that was sometimes very draining. But that tug of war match has been definitively settled over the past few months, and I am now supremely confident in who and what I am. As a result, I am able to remain calm and relaxed during the discussions as I enjoy watching the other party wiggle and squirm in discomfort. Again, it is just cheap entertainment for me. I get amused seeing people get flustered when their condescending holier-than-thou attitudes get called out on the carpet. But, hey, I'm rather warped like that at times... *grin*...
That sounds like great fun.
Were they at all taken aback by your, ugh, how do I say this in a "woke" world, metallic appearance? (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
Just sayin, maybe their stammering was more to do with that than your expose on Exodus 21.
@NewSkeptic Re: "Were they at all taken aback by your, ugh, how do I say this in a "woke" world, metallic appearance?"
Nah. I doubt it could have been that. I apply a coat of flesh colored paint each morning and wear baggy work clothes out and about. Cuts down on all the stares and awkward questions when I'm out in public.
Hoping when things get quieted down later this evening I might get a chance to start giving an AAR on the whole Adam/Eve part of the discussion. For me personally, the Genesis creation story is the absolute foundation for the entire bible. And as far as foundations go, I have seen quicksand pits that are more stable and sturdy. Therefore, to me, if the very foundation is totally wrecked and unreliable, then everything else built on it is absolutely worthless. That is why I love it when they go that route, because their sacred creation foundation is so childishly easy to demolish... *impish grin*...
(Adam/Eve Part 1)
Alrighty. Finally have a few quiet moments with no other immediate pressing matters with which to attend. Soooo... Where to start? Fact is, the whole conversation was rather mixed, because whenever I made a difficult point about one subject, he or she would immediately change directions to another topic. So I would have to gradually and tactically lead them back on track quite often. For the sake of minimizing confusion, though, I will try to keep the discussion as "compressed" as possible here. Just be aware, however, it was not even remotely 'linear" at the time... *chuckle*... Oh, and I may have to break it up into different posts to keep from having one long novel like the OP.
Now, if I remember correctly, Adam/Eve and the Garden of Eden got sucked into the conversation when the guy mentioned something about how Man is flawed and sinful because Eve allowed herself to be tricked by Satan the Serpant to disobey God's order not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. And then Eve persuaded Adam to disobey God and take a bite of the fruit from the tree. Keep in mind, the guy was telling me this in a manner as if to say, "See how very simple this is to understand? Surly you cannot argue this." Well, unfortunately for him, I certainly could argue it. First, though, I wanted to make sure we were all on the same page, so I asked, "Just to confirm, you believe God created everything, right? Us, this planet, our solar system, the galaxies, this universe, and all the other billions and billions of galaxies stars and planets contained within it?"
Their expected and natural response was of course, "Yes, sir! Absolutely. God made it all."
So I continued, "Excellent. Therefore, we can easily conclude that a being that powerful and with that type of knowledge must certainly possess an incredibly high degree of intelligence, right?" Again, total enthusiastic agreement from both.
Okay, so far, so good. Moving right along, I then asked, "And just to make sure, God made it perfectly clear to Adam and Eve that eating from that tree was wrong and it would kill them, right? Meaning that God knew the tree was harmful to them." Full agreement, of course. (I swear, this was just waaaay too easy.) And now for the kill... "Alright. Glad we got that straight. So, all that being said, please help me understand something. Why would such an intelligent and all-knowing/all-powerful God who dearly loved his human creations intentionally put an item he KNEW was harmful to them right in the middle of their garden paradise and leave it totally unguarded within easy reach of the two ultimately innocent and naive humans? KNOWING they would eventually eat from it despite his warning? If that tree were so important and so harmful to his human creations, then God had the ENTIRE UNIVERSE full of other planets he could have used to place the tree to keep it out of reach of Adam and Eve. Shucks, for that matter, God could have simply placed the tree on the other side of the Earth and surrounded it with an impenetrable wall or something. But, nope. Instead, this incredibly intelligent God decided the best place to keep the tree safe was to place it directly in the middle of the garden within easy reach of the two humans he loved so much." I only wish I could have been videoing to capture the looks on their faces. They were caught completely flat-footed. Oh, and just to add insult to injury (Sorry. Couldn't help myself.), I added, "Seems to me that God was incredibly negligent and considerably irresponsible in his decision." I didn't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for them. Thankfully, my better judgement kicked in, and I remained pretty much neutral. Although, the flailing attempts of rebuttal that followed had a considerable amount of humor value to them. I'll save those for another post, as this one is starting to get rather lengthy.
TIN: (My favorite Adam and Eve position) So God told them that if they ate of the tree they would surely die. Then Eve ate of the tree and then Adam ate of the tree, and then (Just like Satan promised them) they did not die. Why was god lying and why did Satan tell the truth?
@Cog Re: "So God told them that if they ate of the tree they would surely die."
Funny you should mention that. It just so happens she brought that up all on her own, although not in the way you put it, of course... *chuckle*... And, believe me, I had a BLAST with that one. I'll try to cover it in my next installment... *giggle*...
*Patting ole Tin on the back. The hollow thump thump thump resounds* "Good job ole buddy!!!"
(Adam/Eve Part 2)
Okay, now to try to cover a couple of their patent "rock solid" rebuttals. It was painfully obvious their responses were pre-programmed, because they were tossed out like an automatic reflex, almost completely ignoring most of the points I had made. Keep in mind, these will be in no particular order, because they kept the discussion bouncing all over the place such that I cannot remember which "defense" came before the other. For the sake of pure entertainment value, I will start with the lady's "Cake On The Table" analogy. (How I managed to keep a straight face through this one I will never know...)
Her: "Okay, let's say you bake a cake and put it on the kitchen table until it is time to take it to the neighbor's house for a party. Naturally, you tell your small child not to touch the cake or he will get in very bad trouble. Well, just like Adam and Eve had a choice, your child has a choice. Either obey you, or get in bad trouble. You go into another room to get ready for the party, during which time your child simply cannot resist the delicious looking cake and takes several big bites out of it. Well, naturally, you are going to be mad at the child and punish him, right? Well, the same thing goes for Adam and Eve. They had a choice, and they knew the consequences of disobeying God, yet they ate from the tree anyway. Naturally, God was angry that they disobeyed him. Would you not say God had a right to punish them?" (Yes... THAT was her smackdown line of reasoning. Seriously, I cannot make this stuff up.)
Me: "Okay, I guess see what you are trying to say. Sure, I suppose I would be angry with my child for doing that. At the same time, however, I would have to blame myself a bit for leaving it within my child's reach. That was very foolish of me to leave such a temptation within reach of a young child. Also, you are trying to compare the actions of a fallible human parent to those of an all-knowing/all-powerful God. You simply cannot do that. Human parents make mistakes, and you have already agreed that God NEVER makes mistakes. Therefore, you cannot compare the two in any way. Besides, so what if my child eats some of the cake. The worst that could happen would be he spoils his appetite for dinner. Big deal. On the other hand, God KNEW without a doubt the incredibly tempting fruit tree he placed within the easy access of Adam and Eve was an immediate danger to them. Moreover, God ALLOWED THEM to be tempted by the serpent that GOD HIMSELF allowed into the garden. So, going back to the cake scenario, let's say instead of a cake, I happened to leave a flaming acetylene torch and a stick of dynamite on the table. And I told my little boy not to touch it as I was leaving the room with him in it unattended. What kind of parent would that make me? Answer: The kind of parent who should be locked away in prison and have my child taken away from me. Yet, God somehow gets a free pass for being just as bad. Why?" Stuttering and stammering and frantic searches for bible passages ensued...
My favourite anecdote about JW's brightening one's day :(dad's and mine actually)
I was about 12, a beautiful Sunday morning (after mass) . Dad was out the front watering the shrubs. Two JW's saw him from across the street, and kind of swooped on dad, and began speaking to him-------- Dad said nothing, even after he had turned the hose on them-------- they left.
Of course you can't get away with that kind of thing any more. People can be such wusses . Do you know, my sis told me I must not set fire to anyone using their mobile phone within my hearing at the shopping centre. Pity, I had just topped up my ancient Zippo. ( I no longer smoke)
@Cranky Re: "Dad said nothing, even after he had turned the hose on them-------- they left."
Hmmm.... Lucky for them he wasn't spraying week killer or insecticide... LMAO...
(Adam/Eve Part 3) This is for you, Cog.
Okay, time to address God’s lying about Adam and Eve dying if they ate from the Tree of Life. First, though, I want to assign names to our two JW’s to help make for easier writing. I’ll call the male John, and I’ll call the female Jane just to keep things simple. (I honestly don’t remember their real names, anyway… *chuckle*…) Also, as a reminder, much of our discussion that day was all mixed together, as they kept jumping from one topic to another whenever confronted with an issue they could not address. Therefore, the different parts I am posting are just my attempt to untangle the mess and lay it out in a more orderly fashion. Here we go…
So, at some point near the beginning of the Adam/Eve discussion, Jane mentioned that God told Adam and Eve they would surely die if they ate from the tree. (I think she may have even read part of the scripture from the bible relating to that.) Then she looked at me and asked in a manner that suggested the answer was self-evident, “And what happened to them after they ate from the tree?” But before I could reply, she answered her own question by stating, “They both died, didn’t they?” Well, naturally, I couldn’t help but develop a rather perplexed and strange look on my face as she gave a confidently curt single nod of her head and then stared at me expectantly as if there was no way I could dispute her statement. (Those big puppy dog eyes… So sad…) Meanwhile, I’m doing my best not to laugh while asking myself, “Is she really serious?
Anyway, as may be expected, my obvious response was, “Uhhh… But they didn’t die. So far as I know, they went on to live long lives and they had many children. Cain and Abel ring any bells for starters?” Totally undaunted, she countered (paraphrased a bit), “That’s right. God had a plan for Adam and Eve to populate the Earth. And they lived over nine hundred years while having many children. Then they died.” (She actually said that shit with a STRAIGHT FACE!… *shaking head in disbelief*… HOW???) Now, at this point, I am seriously suspecting she is just trying to pull my leg. I’m also looking around for hidden cameras expecting to soon be the star of some YouTube prank show. Alas… She was serious. Same confident and challenging look as before. And John was standing there with a smug little grin on his face. (Ugh… *mental face palm*…) So after a brief pause to reorient my brain as to what I was dealing with, I decided to set another little snare trap. (Nothing major. Mostly just for shits and giggles, and my own little warped and greedy self-amusement.) Because it was obvious at this point that no amount of rational reasoning or logic was going to deter either of them.
As bait, I donned a befuddled look on my face and innocently asked Jane, “So, you mean God had intended Adam and Eve to live forever?” As if winning some sort of little victory, she gleefully answered, “Yes, certainly!” (Bait taken.) “Oh, okay,” I said with a puzzled look on my face. As if on cue, she read to me again the passage where God told Adam and Eve they would die if they ate fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. (Anybody see where I am going with this yet?… *chuckle*…) After she finished reading, I motioned toward her i-Pad and said, “So, if I recall correctly, if you were to continue reading past there, I think it says something about God making the statement something along the lines of, ‘Now they have knowledge of good and evil. We cannot allow them to eat from the Tree of Life, else they will also live forever and then be like us.’ I don’t know, but it seems to me they could not have lived forever unless they ate from the Tree of Life. And it was obvious God did not want them to do that, implying they were not intended to live forever. Oh, and to what other gods was God talking, by the way? I find that part to be very interesting.” You may find this surprising, but no intelligible answers were forthcoming… *disappointed sigh*…
Okay! I vote we all give Tin his black belt. How many agrees can I get? LOL....
Tin needs a belt? I didn't know he wore trousers.