Two JW's brightened my day today.
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They have a point about perfect:
having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
"life certainly isn't perfect at the moment"
absolute; complete (used for emphasis).
"a perfect stranger"
make (something) completely free from faults or defects; make as good as possible.
"he's busy perfecting his bowling technique"
the perfect tense.
So you can argue, with all the synonyms for perfect that there are indeed "levels" of being perfect.... "perfection" is the state of being perfect. e.g physical perfection. The novel achieves a perfection of form that is quite new. His performance was perfection (= something perfect).(OED)
The meanings or levels they ascribe to "perfect" can only be argued as they are not objective but must be subject to man's interpretation(subjective), therefore imperfect, or flawed in concept and judgement.
Their assertions can therefore be disregarded.
@Old Man Re: Perfection - "The meanings or levels they ascribe to "perfect" can only be argued as they are not objective but must be subject to man's interpretation(subjective), therefore imperfect, or flawed in concept and judgement. Their assertions can therefore be disregarded."
Nice! Wish I had thought of that during the discussion. Will definitely keep it in mind for the next encounter, though. As it was, I really had them stumbling against the ropes during that part of our talks. Was actually one of the things they wanted to go "research" prior to their next visit... *chuckle*... (More details on that later.)
To give a bit more preview, we also talked about worshipping and why I believe it is a demeaning act. Then there was the issue of god speaking to other gods in regards to Adam and Eve. Oh, and the two different creation versions of Adam and Eve. Of course, no bible discussion would be complete without talking about its history and all the different translation/interpretation/editing problems therein... *snicker*... Anyway, there is more, but I need to make a few notes and dredge my lethargic memory for the finer details. Will be posting them as I get the chance.
Tom did start out in a more confident manner, and he did seem better educated and easier to engage.
Betcha he’s a pioneer! I used to be asked to go on calls like you!
Different levels of perfect?!?! News to me!
@Whitefire Re: "Betcha he’s (Tom) a pioneer! I used to be asked to go on calls like you!"
Uh-oh! I must be marked then!... lol... So what's the next level up from pioneer? Who is the highest ranking member of the church? Would be kinda cool if I could eventually work my way up to a visit from THAT person... *chuckle*...
Seriously, though, all the fun stuff aside, I feel like the more I can get them to "research", the more they may start doing some actually thinking. Regardless of whether they do or not, though, I'm not the one losing sleep over wondering how I will counter the points I made to them.... *impish grin*...
Thanks Old Man Shouts...
In my day, they taught that “imperfection” was “missing the mark” (think arrow hitting those round target thingy) ... inferring that perfection is simply “hitting it dead center” (?!?! sounds stupid as I write it). That was about it from the stage and light literature... deeper understanding of “perfection” must be in their research material produced by the WBTS, especially “levels”. That’s new to me unless they mis-spoke; new “light” or they worded it weird.
Tin Man “what's the next level up from pioneer? Who is the highest ranking member of the church? Would be kinda cool if I could eventually work my way up to a visit from THAT person... *chuckle*...
Sometimes an Elder will go but not often (they’re about as apt as the regular members). Aside from pioneers, the Circuit Overseer is the guy you want visiting (lol). He visits the congregations in his area and usually accompanies pioneers in the ministry on his visit. Or occasionally, a regular member who has a bible study. My ex-husband was an Elder and me, pioneering- we always scored having the Overseer stay with us during his visit. That was a big privilege/honor in JW land.
Ah. Thanks for the info. Is it within poroper etiquette for me to ask their "ranking" or status?
Nope. Don’t mention it. They sell themselves as all christians who do the preaching and are very proud that there is no rank ( hahahahaha). Only if THEY bring it up then you can ask “what is that” (ie pioneer: trekking and homesteading through the prairies; Elder old guy like Old Man Shouts)
You can ask if they have “Ministers or Priests” .... that would open the door to them bragging. They take much pride that they are not like False Religious Christians (ie Catholics especially)
Thank you. Very useful to know.
When you going to slam them with the History of Joseph Smith?
@Cog Re: Joseph Smith
I thought he was Mormon. Besides, while I am very comfortable discussing matters of god and the bible, I am not terribly proficient in the history/biographies of particular leaders/developers of offshoot sects. I would be no match for them in that area. Regardless, though, if I can shatter the very foundation of the religion itself, the leaders themselves would be a moot point anyway, in my opinion.
My Bad! You are correct. I need to wake up before responding to posts.
'I thought he was Mormon."
That's like saying the pope is Catholic.He was THE Mormon, the inventor of that bewildering religion. A convicted criminal and conman who some one had the good sense to shoot:
Some of their beliefs ;Jesus was just a planetary god. All Mormons in good standing get get their very own planet with people.
Mormon claims have included; There are people living on both the moon and the Sun.
American Indians are the lost tribes of Israel.
That people may be baptised by proxy after death.THAT is why the Mormons have one the biggest genealogy collection of any private
collection. A few years ago, they were quietly baptising Jewish Holocaust victims. News leaked out and there was hell to pay from Israel and international Jewry . Mormons promised to stop, so that's all right then.
Joseph Smith had a scrap of Egyptian papyrus he bought from a travelling pedlar. He claimed it was the lost book of Abraham, which I think an angel had helped him translate, or was it his magic hat?. Then scholars became familiar with the Rosetta stone. Turns out not a religious text at all., . Instead it was scraps of the vast array of papyrus funerary texts known collectively as 'The Book Of The Dead.
Polygamy was very popular with Joseph Smith, who liked young girls, as young as 14,. He had about 30 wives. Same with Brigham Young who took over after Smith was murdered. Reading non Mormon sources, it seems Old Joe was well known as a rather unsavoury and untrustworthy character. How shocking.
My favourite is the teaching that black people do not have souls. Coincidentally, the incumbent prophet had a vision saying this is not so -- about a week after President Jimmy Carter had threatened to revoke Mormon's Tax free status. I shit you not
If you are a bastard like me, and want to upset a proselytising Mormon, ask them about 'The Mountain Meadows Massacre ..Mormons massacred a wagon train passing their territory in Sept 1857.---also an interesting film, with Jon Voight, "September Dawn" 2007. There is also a documentary "The Mountain Meadows Massacre" 2001.
I've actually plowed through bits of the Book Of Mormon. It reads exactly as one would expect from a semi literate white male of the nineteenth century who had only read the bible, but had read that A LOT-- a risible, fake King James English.
I've posted this because although Mormonism is transparent humbuggery from go to whoa, imo it can't hold a candle to any of the Abrahamic faiths for pure absurdity.
"The Book of Abraham is a work produced between 1835 and 1842 by Joseph Smith based, he said, on Egyptian papyri purchased from a traveling mummy exhibition. According to Smith, the book was "a translation of some ancient records [...] purporting to be the writings of Abraham, while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus". Smith said the papyri described Abraham's early life, his travels to Canaan and Egypt, and his vision of the cosmos and its creation.
The Book of Abraham papyri were thought to have been lost in the 1871 Great Chicago Fire. However, in 1966 several fragments of the papyri were found in the archives of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York and in the LDS Church archives. They are now referred to as the Joseph Smith Papyri. Upon examination by professional Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists, these fragments were identified as Egyptian funerary texts, including the "Breathing Permit of Hôr"[nb 1] and the "Book of the Dead", among others. As a result, the Book of Abraham has been the source of significant controversy. Critics say it is a work of fiction"
The Mountain Meadows massacre was a series of attacks on the Baker–Fancher emigrant wagon train at Mountain Meadows in southern Utah. The attacks began on September 7 and culminated on September 11, 1857, resulting in the mass slaughter of most in the emigrant party by members of the Utah Territorial Militia from the Iron County district, together with some Southern Paiute Native Americans.
he wagon train, mostly families from Arkansas, was bound for California on a route that passed through the Utah Territory, during a time of conflict later known as the Utah War. After arriving in Salt Lake City, the Baker–Fancher party made their way south, eventually stopping to rest at Mountain Meadows. While the emigrants were camped at the meadow, nearby militia leaders, including Isaac C. Haight and John D. Lee, made plans to attack the wagon train.
The militia, officially called the Nauvoo Legion, was composed of Utah's Mormon settlers---------------------.
@Cranky Re: Joseph Smith and the Mormons
Hey, thanks, Crank. Some very interesting info there. Fascinating stuff, really. Yeah, I know who Joseph Smith is, and I am a wee bit familiar with SOME of the Mormon history, but I always enjoy learning more about things like that. Just wish I had the ability to retain the dates/names/locations as good as others seem able to do. Sadly, even though I have always been fascinated by history/ancient cultures and such, my ability to recall specifics about such things is quite faulty. For better or worse, my tiny clump of gray matter is geared more toward math and engineering and being able to improvise things on-the-spot. (Watched a whole bunch of "MacGyver" as a kid.... *chuckle*...)
Lol. Sorry Cog ... their history is Russel dating back to the Millerites. Originally Jesus second coming was suppose to be in 1874, and armeggedon in 1914.... eventually they switched er up to 1914 as Jesus’ second coming - now ruling invisibly in the heavens...
@ Whitefire and TM
Interestingly the JWs today would be anathema to the founding JWs, There have been several tectonic shifts in dogma since 1914. The latest was in 1995 when mathematics ( population growth) invalidated (again) a core belief.
For details of all the buggering around try here TM....https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/changed-watchtower-teachings.php
When you bring all this up they will say "light shines brighter" in an attempt to deflect the very real criticism of their changing dogma. Bollocks of course and a meaningless phrase.
I found the Medical dogma most interesting....people died because of changes in dogma, people were disfellowshipped (shunned) and then the ruling changed....criminal in my view.
(edit last para)
Tin Man...am not terribly proficient in the history/biographies
Good if you were they wouldn’t come back. Your approach is bang on.
Tin Man... I have beeeennnn soooo patient waiting for your update... stop playing with your dog! Lol. I can’t stand the anticipation any longer!
At least he's stopped playing with his ginger pussy.....be thankful. Cog and I were at our wits' end...which isn't difficult for Cog....he was nearly catatonic. *wink*
Okay, here we go.... (finally). By some strange happenstance, I actually have a few spare minutes this evening to get on the computer. Figured I would use it to do some catching up on here with my JW buddies. Basically, I am just going to start out with one of the main things I can immediately remember, as our conversation that day was all over the map, and remembering the order of any of it would be an exercise in futility. So, without further ado, here goes the first installment of my second JW meeting...
I suppose one of the more humorous parts of our discussion was in regards to worshipping. As with most of that meeting, I forget how it came up, but at one point I asked Tom, "So, why does god need to be worshipped? Personally, I find the act of worshipping anything or anybody considerably disrespectful and demeaning." With a puzzled look, Tom replied, "Well, because He is God. And God is worthy of worship." (Hmmm.... Uh, yeah. Okaaaaay...?) And then he asked, "But you said you find it demeaning. Why is that?" (Excellent. So glad you asked... *snicker*...) And so I began...
Me: "Well, first, please let me make sure we are all on the same page here, because I do not want to make any assumptions about what you guys believe. So, from how I was raised and taught in relation to god, "worship" means to bow down and totally submit yourself to somebody/something and give your entire being control over your body and life without question. It means bowing down to that person/thing, praising it above all things, and being absolutely submissive to it in every way. Is that pretty much the way you perceive as "worshipping" when it comes to god?"
Tom: "Absolutely. I can agree with that completely." (John nodding his head in solid agreement.)
Me: "Okay, good. Just wanted to make sure. So, I don't know if either of you have any kids, but there must certainly be somebody in your life you love unconditionally and have some amount of "authority" over them. In other words, for instance, you have a juvenile niece or nephew, maybe, who look up to you or something of that nature." (Nods of agreement from both John and Tom) "Excellent. Now, I don't have any children of my own, but I do have nieces and nephews, my stepchildren, and my wife. I love all of them dearly, and in some form or fashion they all look up to me. See what I'm saying?" (Again, nods of agreement.) "So, Tom, tell me something. Think of the one person you love and care about the most. Would you EVER want that person to worship you?"
Tom: (surprised look) "Well, no. Certainly not."
Me: "Okay, why not?"
Tom: "Because I am not God."
Me: "Well, obviously not. But let us leave god out of this for a moment. Let's say that you are wealthy beyond imagination and that you have extensive power and influence beyond measure. In other words, you could snap your fingers and have somebody killed in an instant and never be concerned about suffering consequences as a result. Would you still not want anybody to worship you?"
Tom: "No. Like I said, I am not God. I am only a fallible human and I am not worthy of worship, especially if I choose to order somebody to be killed."
Me: "Well, you are still missing the point. WHY would YOU personally not want to be worshipped, especially by somebody you love and care about? Hmmm.... Let me try it this way. I grew up watching all sorts of movies and reading all sorts of books ranging from sci-fi to historical documentaries. And in every single one of those stories or documentaries that involved a powerful character that demanded to be worshipped, that character was always portrayed as being the incredibly devious and incorrigible bad guy. But then I would go to church on Sundays and get told god loves us and forgives us unconditionally AS LONG AS WE WORSHIP HIM. To put it lightly, this posed quite a bit of confusion for me as a little kid. Makes even less sense now as an adult with considerably more knowledge and experience."
Tom: "That is because these were fictional characters or - in the case of the documentaries - simply flawed human beings not worthy of worship." (Nice try, Tom, but no prize this time.)
Me: "But that does not matter. Even if we are talking about a god, how can you call that entity all-loving and all-benevolent when the very action of demanding to be worshipped immediately devalues an individual's self-esteem and causes an undertone of humiliation and insult? ESPECIALLY when that god supposedly has the power to do whatever it wants with that individual if he/she does not do as that god demands. That does not sound very loving to me. Personally, I would never even want my ENEMIES to worship me. Therefore, I would CERTAINLY NEVER want anybody I love and care about to worship me. I would lose respect for them, and they would lose respect for me. Moreover, if I am demanding to be worshipped, then (in my opinion), that makes me an incredibly insecure and narcissistic bully with a huge ego problem. Yet, for some reason or other, god seems to get a free pass on this. Why? Oh, and keep in mind, your god could present himself in front of me right here and right now and I would not fall to my knees and kiss his ass. Sure, he could do whatever he wants to me if he is real. Absolutely NOTHING I could do about that. But if he is all-knowing as the claim is made, then he should already know RIGHT NOW exactly how I feel and why. And he should most certainly understand what I say is true. Yet, here we still sit, and your god does nothing about it. Therefore, no sense in me trying to pretend I feel otherwise. And if your god does not like that, then I guess I am screwed."
Tom: (flipping desperately through palm-pilot pad, or whatever that thingamajig is) "Well, again, God is the one who created us, which makes God worthy of worship. He doesn't DEMAND to be worshipped. The bible just says God is WORTHY of being worshipped."
Me: "Oh, so now you are saying worshipping god is not a REQUIREMENT. Okay, cool. Well, in that case, maybe god should make it clear that people should not worship him. Because, again, I would personally NEVER want anybody to worship me regardless of how much power/influence I have over them. It would make me feel like one of those villains in one of those sci-fi movies or documentaries about kings and such. And, quite frankly, I simply cannot see how a being that is all-powerful and all-knowing could EVER be considered all-loving if it demands to be worshipped under threat of punishment. So, again, the whole god issue aside, why would YOU never want to be worshipped? And why does god get a pass on being a narcissistic villain?"
(By this time, Tom is sitting on his hands and rocking back and forth anxiously, and John has developed some sort of strange nervous tic that is a cross between a hiccup and a yelp. I'm not even exaggerating or kidding.)
Tom: "Uh, well, uh, like I said, we are only humans, and God is the only one ever worthy of being worshipped. However, I would really like a chance to go do some more research on this if you don't mind. And then we can talk about it some more."
Me: "Okay, no problem. So, ummm, what about the other god's god was talking to in regards to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? And where did Cain find a wife after he was sent away for killing Abel?......." (This one did not go very well for them either... *chuckle*...)
I abso fucking lutely love it! LOl We really really need that 10,000 Laughter ticks button!
Maybe you should start painting crosses on the side of your ute and crossing one out after every interview?
(Edit ute = pick up)
TIN: For Future Reference:
"Exodus 34:14 clearly states, "for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."
" Revelation 15:4 teaches that all will worship the Lord: "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
**So sad the little guys do not know their bible."
King James Version Luke 4:27
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
The Parable of the Good Samaritan
…26“What is written in the Law?” Jesus replied. “How do you read it?” 27He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” 28“You have answered correctly,” Jesus said. “Do this and you will live.”…
YOU WERE 100% CORRECT!
Beautiful! Well worth the wait. I never imagined that you had a life outside this forum - what drew me to the forum is I don’t have a life :)
...when they say “we’ll have to research this and come back” .... consider it a “win” in that you have them thinking or having a question “outside their box”. They will research their own materials (they are very satisfied with the spiritual food that Jehovah provides).
I love the “modern” Witness using an iPod or whatever.... I used my bible or their’s if it made the householder more comfortable.
Lol - lmfao! Oh God...poor Tom; how do you get past this dichotomy? My anxiety level would have been through the roof if it had been my young self at your house!
Or, I could buy a bunch of those little window decal crosses. The same type of decals people like to use to display their stick-figure families to the public. Then I can just add a little cross to my rear window after each encounter. After awhile, people will start to think I am a very faithful believer when they see my truck. Around these parts it would be like camouflage... lol...
Glad you brought up all those verses. From my childhood teachings I knew they were there. I just don't remember books, chapters, and verses very well. However (forgot to mention this), I found it considerably amusing that Tom directed me ONLY to Psalm 145:3 to "prove" his point that god does not demand worship but is only worthy. Was everything I could do to keep a straight face at that point... *chuckle*...
Oh, something else I forgot. I had explained to them how I NEVER felt comfortable going up to the altar to kneel and pray. For matter, I never understood why it was necessary to pray at all. Supposedly, god already knows what I am thinking and what I will ever think/feel. I told them, "Hey, maybe I'm just stubborn and a bit rebellious, but the mere thought of kneeling down and kissing the feet of anybody or anything seems incredibly wrong to me. Just a deep gut instinct that has always told me the whole act of worship is simply... well... just insulting and disrespectful." And that is what led to my telling them about bad guys in movies/books who demanded to be worshipped.
Well, being retired has its advantages... *chuckle*... But as for life outside the AR, that consists mainly of house maintenance, pet care (or "Zoo Keeper", as I like to call it), wood working, and landscaping chores. Truth be told, I'm not a very social creature anyway. Neither is my wife. Sure, we have a few friends we like to gather with once in awhile. Mostly, though, we just prefer to keep to ourselves. This past week, though, the new pup has put a huge kink in our normal daily routines... *chuckle*...
"Then I can just add a little cross to my rear window after each encounter. After awhile, people will start to think I am a very faithful believer when they see my truck. "
What you need to do is to "accidentally" stick the decals upside-down. Or, you could get some custom-made safety labels, like this https://www.mysafetylabels.com/no-religion-iso-prohibition-symbol-label/... or like this https://www.dreamstime.com/no-christian-religion-sign-allowed-image10851...
@GOML Re: Safety labels
...LMAO... Nice! Me likey!... *clapping gleefully*...
Saw this personalized license plate on a car in front of me today: "REV 320"
Makes me wonder if the driver just cruises around the area during supper time and then stops at a random house, knocks on the door, and when the person answers the door the guy is like, "Hey, thanks for having me in for dinner. You get to eat with me tonight."
What if it had been "REV 420"? A stoned holy man with the munchies?
FYI Tin-Man .....