Two JW's brightened my day today.

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Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TM

@ TM

They have a point about perfect:
having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
"life certainly isn't perfect at the moment"

absolute; complete (used for emphasis).
"a perfect stranger"

make (something) completely free from faults or defects; make as good as possible.
"he's busy perfecting his bowling technique"

the perfect tense.

So you can argue, with all the synonyms for perfect that there are indeed "levels" of being perfect.... "perfection" is ​the state of being perfect. e.g physical perfection. The novel achieves a perfection of form that is quite new. His performance was perfection (= something perfect).(OED)

The meanings or levels they ascribe to "perfect" can only be argued as they are not objective but must be subject to man's interpretation(subjective), therefore imperfect, or flawed in concept and judgement.
Their assertions can therefore be disregarded.

(edit tags)

Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man Re: Perfection -

@Old Man Re: Perfection - "The meanings or levels they ascribe to "perfect" can only be argued as they are not objective but must be subject to man's interpretation(subjective), therefore imperfect, or flawed in concept and judgement. Their assertions can therefore be disregarded."

Nice! Wish I had thought of that during the discussion. Will definitely keep it in mind for the next encounter, though. As it was, I really had them stumbling against the ropes during that part of our talks. Was actually one of the things they wanted to go "research" prior to their next visit... *chuckle*... (More details on that later.)

To give a bit more preview, we also talked about worshipping and why I believe it is a demeaning act. Then there was the issue of god speaking to other gods in regards to Adam and Eve. Oh, and the two different creation versions of Adam and Eve. Of course, no bible discussion would be complete without talking about its history and all the different translation/interpretation/editing problems therein... *snicker*... Anyway, there is more, but I need to make a few notes and dredge my lethargic memory for the finer details. Will be posting them as I get the chance.

Whitefire13's picture
Tom did start out in a more

Tom did start out in a more confident manner, and he did seem better educated and easier to engage.

Betcha he’s a pioneer! I used to be asked to go on calls like you!

Different levels of perfect?!?! News to me!

Tin-Man's picture
@Whitefire Re: "Betcha he’s

@Whitefire Re: "Betcha he’s (Tom) a pioneer! I used to be asked to go on calls like you!"

Uh-oh! I must be marked then!... lol... So what's the next level up from pioneer? Who is the highest ranking member of the church? Would be kinda cool if I could eventually work my way up to a visit from THAT person... *chuckle*...

Seriously, though, all the fun stuff aside, I feel like the more I can get them to "research", the more they may start doing some actually thinking. Regardless of whether they do or not, though, I'm not the one losing sleep over wondering how I will counter the points I made to them.... *impish grin*...

Whitefire13's picture
Thanks Old Man Shouts...

Thanks Old Man Shouts...

In my day, they taught that “imperfection” was “missing the mark” (think arrow hitting those round target thingy) ... inferring that perfection is simply “hitting it dead center” (?!?! sounds stupid as I write it). That was about it from the stage and light literature... deeper understanding of “perfection” must be in their research material produced by the WBTS, especially “levels”. That’s new to me unless they mis-spoke; new “light” or they worded it weird.

Whitefire13's picture
Tin Man “what's the next

Tin Man “what's the next level up from pioneer? Who is the highest ranking member of the church? Would be kinda cool if I could eventually work my way up to a visit from THAT person... *chuckle*...

Sometimes an Elder will go but not often (they’re about as apt as the regular members). Aside from pioneers, the Circuit Overseer is the guy you want visiting (lol). He visits the congregations in his area and usually accompanies pioneers in the ministry on his visit. Or occasionally, a regular member who has a bible study. My ex-husband was an Elder and me, pioneering- we always scored having the Overseer stay with us during his visit. That was a big privilege/honor in JW land.

Tin-Man's picture


Ah. Thanks for the info. Is it within poroper etiquette for me to ask their "ranking" or status?

Whitefire13's picture
Nope. Don’t mention it. They

Nope. Don’t mention it. They sell themselves as all christians who do the preaching and are very proud that there is no rank ( hahahahaha). Only if THEY bring it up then you can ask “what is that” (ie pioneer: trekking and homesteading through the prairies; Elder old guy like Old Man Shouts)

Whitefire13's picture
You can ask if they have

You can ask if they have “Ministers or Priests” .... that would open the door to them bragging. They take much pride that they are not like False Religious Christians (ie Catholics especially)

Tin-Man's picture


Thank you. Very useful to know.

Cognostic's picture
When you going to slam them

When you going to slam them with the History of Joseph Smith?

Tin-Man's picture
@Cog Re: Joseph Smith

@Cog Re: Joseph Smith

I thought he was Mormon. Besides, while I am very comfortable discussing matters of god and the bible, I am not terribly proficient in the history/biographies of particular leaders/developers of offshoot sects. I would be no match for them in that area. Regardless, though, if I can shatter the very foundation of the religion itself, the leaders themselves would be a moot point anyway, in my opinion.

Cognostic's picture
My Bad! You are correct.

My Bad! You are correct. I need to wake up before responding to posts.

cranky47's picture
@Tin man

@Tin man

'I thought he was Mormon."

That's like saying the pope is Catholic.He was THE Mormon, the inventor of that bewildering religion. A convicted criminal and conman who some one had the good sense to shoot:

Some of their beliefs ;Jesus was just a planetary god. All Mormons in good standing get get their very own planet with people.

Mormon claims have included; There are people living on both the moon and the Sun.

American Indians are the lost tribes of Israel.

That people may be baptised by proxy after death.THAT is why the Mormons have one the biggest genealogy collection of any private
collection. A few years ago, they were quietly baptising Jewish Holocaust victims. News leaked out and there was hell to pay from Israel and international Jewry . Mormons promised to stop, so that's all right then.

Joseph Smith had a scrap of Egyptian papyrus he bought from a travelling pedlar. He claimed it was the lost book of Abraham, which I think an angel had helped him translate, or was it his magic hat?. Then scholars became familiar with the Rosetta stone. Turns out not a religious text at all., . Instead it was scraps of the vast array of papyrus funerary texts known collectively as 'The Book Of The Dead.

Polygamy was very popular with Joseph Smith, who liked young girls, as young as 14,. He had about 30 wives. Same with Brigham Young who took over after Smith was murdered. Reading non Mormon sources, it seems Old Joe was well known as a rather unsavoury and untrustworthy character. How shocking.

My favourite is the teaching that black people do not have souls. Coincidentally, the incumbent prophet had a vision saying this is not so -- about a week after President Jimmy Carter had threatened to revoke Mormon's Tax free status. I shit you not

If you are a bastard like me, and want to upset a proselytising Mormon, ask them about 'The Mountain Meadows Massacre ..Mormons massacred a wagon train passing their territory in Sept 1857.---also an interesting film, with Jon Voight, "September Dawn" 2007. There is also a documentary "The Mountain Meadows Massacre" 2001.

I've actually plowed through bits of the Book Of Mormon. It reads exactly as one would expect from a semi literate white male of the nineteenth century who had only read the bible, but had read that A LOT-- a risible, fake King James English.

I've posted this because although Mormonism is transparent humbuggery from go to whoa, imo it can't hold a candle to any of the Abrahamic faiths for pure absurdity.

"The Book of Abraham is a work produced between 1835 and 1842 by Joseph Smith[1] based, he said, on Egyptian papyri purchased from a traveling mummy exhibition. According to Smith, the book was "a translation of some ancient records [...] purporting to be the writings of Abraham, while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus".[2] Smith said the papyri described Abraham's early life, his travels to Canaan and Egypt, and his vision of the cosmos and its creation.

The Book of Abraham papyri were thought to have been lost in the 1871 Great Chicago Fire. However, in 1966 several fragments of the papyri were found in the archives of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York and in the LDS Church archives. They are now referred to as the Joseph Smith Papyri. Upon examination by professional Mormon and non-Mormon Egyptologists, these fragments were identified as Egyptian funerary texts, including the "Breathing Permit of Hôr"[nb 1] and the "Book of the Dead", among others. As a result, the Book of Abraham has been the source of significant controversy. Critics say it is a work of fiction"


The Mountain Meadows massacre was a series of attacks on the Baker–Fancher emigrant wagon train at Mountain Meadows in southern Utah. The attacks began on September 7 and culminated on September 11, 1857, resulting in the mass slaughter of most in the emigrant party by members of the Utah Territorial Militia from the Iron County district, together with some Southern Paiute Native Americans.

he wagon train, mostly families from Arkansas, was bound for California on a route that passed through the Utah Territory, during a time of conflict later known as the Utah War. After arriving in Salt Lake City, the Baker–Fancher party made their way south, eventually stopping to rest at Mountain Meadows. While the emigrants were camped at the meadow, nearby militia leaders, including Isaac C. Haight and John D. Lee, made plans to attack the wagon train.

The militia, officially called the Nauvoo Legion, was composed of Utah's Mormon settlers---------------------.

Tin-Man's picture
@Cranky Re: Joseph Smith and

@Cranky Re: Joseph Smith and the Mormons

Hey, thanks, Crank. Some very interesting info there. Fascinating stuff, really. Yeah, I know who Joseph Smith is, and I am a wee bit familiar with SOME of the Mormon history, but I always enjoy learning more about things like that. Just wish I had the ability to retain the dates/names/locations as good as others seem able to do. Sadly, even though I have always been fascinated by history/ancient cultures and such, my ability to recall specifics about such things is quite faulty. For better or worse, my tiny clump of gray matter is geared more toward math and engineering and being able to improvise things on-the-spot. (Watched a whole bunch of "MacGyver" as a kid.... *chuckle*...)

Whitefire13's picture
Lol. Sorry Cog ... their

Lol. Sorry Cog ... their history is Russel dating back to the Millerites. Originally Jesus second coming was suppose to be in 1874, and armeggedon in 1914.... eventually they switched er up to 1914 as Jesus’ second coming - now ruling invisibly in the heavens...

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Whitefire and TM

@ Whitefire and TM

Interestingly the JWs today would be anathema to the founding JWs, There have been several tectonic shifts in dogma since 1914. The latest was in 1995 when mathematics ( population growth) invalidated (again) a core belief.

For details of all the buggering around try here TM....

When you bring all this up they will say "light shines brighter" in an attempt to deflect the very real criticism of their changing dogma. Bollocks of course and a meaningless phrase.

I found the Medical dogma most interesting....people died because of changes in dogma, people were disfellowshipped (shunned) and then the ruling changed....criminal in my view.

(edit last para)

Whitefire13's picture
Tin not terribly

Tin not terribly proficient in the history/biographies

Good if you were they wouldn’t come back. Your approach is bang on.

Whitefire13's picture
Tin Man... I have beeeennnn

Tin Man... I have beeeennnn soooo patient waiting for your update... stop playing with your dog! Lol. I can’t stand the anticipation any longer!

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Whitefore

@ Whitefore

At least he's stopped playing with his ginger thankful. Cog and I were at our wits' end...which isn't difficult for Cog....he was nearly catatonic. *wink*


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