Two JW's brightened my day today.
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@David K. Re: REV 420
"... Like, hey, maaaan... Do you, like, you know, have like maybe a goldfish, man? You know, 'cause I could like, uh, you know, maybe make enough for, like, EVERYBODY, maaaaan.... Ooo, ooo, ooo.... Oh, and like maybe a loaf of bread, too? Oh, wow, maaan, that would be, like, totally awesome, dude. Yeah, like, you know, fish sandwiches for everybody... Wooooooow..... Oh, and don't worry about buying any wine, maaan. I've got that covered, dude. Like, where's your water faucet?"
And this could be the background music...
Alright then. Where was I? Uh, let's seeeeee.... Oh, yeah. The two different versions of man/woman being created, and where-in-the-HELL did Cain find a wife once sent away from "the presence of the Lord". Oh, and in case I forgot to mention it, at the very beginning when they arrived, I had requested we talk about the very foundation of the bible being Genesis, and they both agreed that it was. Anyway, and the saga continues...
Me: "Again, just to ensure we are are on the same page, you believe all of humanity was made from just one man and one woman (Adam and Eve), correct?"
(Both agreed wholeheartedly that is their belief.)
Me: "Excellent. So, do you mind if I ask why there are two different versions of how man/woman were created?"
Tom: (stunned look) "Uh, what do you mean? Please show me where that is." (Wow... Did he really just ask me that?)
Me: (opening bible to Genesis Chapter 1. scanning finger down page.) "Ummmm, let's seeeee.... Oh, here it is. See? In the first creation of Man/Woman (Adam and Eve), it says god made them both at the same time. And as a quick side note, to whom was god talking? Because he said, 'Let US make Man in OUR own image.' Anyway, just curious."... (waving hand in dismissal)... "So, uh, then god goes on to give them BOTH 'instructions' about how he made everything for THEM and that THEY are meant to enjoy it all. However in the next chapter, just a few verses away, there is a totally different version."... (pointing them to chapter 2)... "Look, here it says god first made Man (Adam) from the dirt and breathed life into him. Then god went on to tell Adam basically the same instructions as in chapter 1, but with the addition of telling ADAM not to eat from the forbidden Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. God then went on to make all the animals and had Adam name them. (Odd, though, because in the first chapter all the animals were made BEFORE Man and Women were created... Hmmm...) Oh, well. Anyway, only after all of that did god determine Adam needed a wife. And it was at that time god put Adam to sleep, stole one of Adam's ribs, and then made woman from that. I was wondering if you could clear that up for me?"
Tom: (look of deer caught in headlights) "Well, uh, if you notice, God did not say he created ADAM in the first chapter. The name Adam does not appear until the second chapter, right? And then the name Eve didn't get mentioned until even later. See?" (I kid you not, he said all of that with a straight and confident face as if he had merely stated 2+2=4. And he was looking at me as if to say, "See how obvious that is?")
Me: (trying hard not to laugh) "Well, the thing is - and this is just my personal opinion, mind you - seems to me it does not matter when the names come into play. Matter of fact, shouldn't even matter what the names were in the first place. Could have been Greg and Marsha. It's kinda irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that it CLEARLY states in the first chapter that man and woman were created AT THE SAME TIME. And then in the second chapter, it CLEARLY tells how man and woman were created very distinctly at two different times AND in different manners. So, if it was not Adam and Eve, who were those first two that god created?"
(By the way, the whole time I was explaining this, John was just sitting there with a thousand-yard-stare on his face and intermittently letting loose with one of his hiccup/yelp tics, while Tom was desperately searching his laptop for some sort of explanation.)
Tom: "Uh, well, if you notice, the second chapter is really just expanding a little more on what was said in the first chapter."
Me: "No, no... there is really no way to deny these are two VERY distinctly different versions of the supposedly same event. And, quite honestly, it does not make sense to me that this is something an all-powerful, all-knowing, PERFECT god would allow to get published in its name. Either there were TWO totally different incidents of Man being created, or somebody wrote an incredibly monumental mistake. Oh, and I am still really curious about the other gods to whom god was talking."
John: (temporally snapping out of his coma) "Jesus. Yeah, Jesus was up there with God."
Me: "Hmmmm... Uh, nope. Not really buying that answer. Jesus did not come along until waaay into the New Testament, and the New Testament didn't get started until many years AFTER Jesus was supposedly sacrificed. Meaning, therefore, whoever wrote the Old Testament scrolls would have known nothing about the Jesus character. And one would think this would be something important to mention at the beginning of his perfect book. Again, though, just my opinion."
In the end, I (AGAIN) got the ol', "Hey, we would really like to research this a little more before we meet again." I'm just dying to know how high up the chain I can get in their hierarchy... *chuckle*...
I think I want to marry you....
"Me: "Excellent. So, do you mind if I ask why there are two different versions of how man/woman were created?"
I don't suppose it would help [you] to introduce Jewish apochrypha /?What with not being part of the canon and all. It's just that in "The Book of Adam And Eve' there is yet a different version (I think, I'm a bit vague about the name of the book)
---that the first woman wasa redhead called LILITH, not EVE. Apparently she was a bit of a hussy ,and simply refused to let Adam boss her around. great Wuss that he was, Adam complained to god, who took Adam's side. god did something mean to Lilith and made her a demon (that YHWH was a real cunt) God then made Eve who was also far from perfect, .
The story of Lilith is given as one reason redheaded women are still unlucky in Jewish folklore. Another reason is that YHWH's wife Asherah** also had red hair. (evidence for worship of a female deity have been found in Israel dating as late as the 4th century bce)
**back in the day, when he was only a tribal war god. My reference; " Did God Have a Wife?: Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel" William G Dever
Ask them why they do not use a "REAL" translation of the bible.
"Because the Jehovah's Witness organization denies the deity of both Jesus and the Holy Spirit, they have altered the text of God's word to reflect their presuppositions."
"The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society denies that the Holy Spirit is alive, the third person of the Trinity. Therefore, they have changed the correct translation of "...the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters," to say "...and God's active force was moving over the surface of the waters." (Genisis 1:1-2)
"Because the Jehovah's Witnesses deny God in flesh for the Scriptures (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2:9), they must change the Bible to make it agree with their theology. The Jehovah's Witness version in the New World Translation says, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."
"This is another obvious alteration in the New World translation. In their attempt to avoid the deity of Christ, they scour the Bible and alter any verses that would suggest that Jesus is divine." ------ "T: "Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to you I do not speak of my own originality, but the Father who remains in union."
Hebrews 1:6 (NASB),
"Since Jesus, to them, JW, is created, then he cannot be worshiped. They have also done this in other verses concerning Jesus, i.e., Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9." ----- They alter the word "Worchip" and replace it with "obeisance."
Oh, something else I forgot to mention....
At any time during the meeting I was having to search for a certain verse to make a point, I would always scan along the passages with my finger to find it, even if I already knew where it was. And while "scanning" toward the verse, I would be quietly reading it as if to myself. However, when I would get to one of those "strange" spots (that I already KNEW I would encounter), I would pause a moment and then, more loudly, make some sort of remark about it, as if talking to myself.
For instance... When looking for the verse where god is talking to other gods, there are all those verses "building up" to where god kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, right? And in those verses, god is, 1. Searching for Adam who is attempting to hide, and 2. God is then interrogating Adam and asking what they did wrong. Therefore, during my "scan", I would be muttering along and then suddenly stop as if confused. Then I would say a little more loudly to myself something like, "Hmmm... That's odd. Wonder why an omniscient god couldn't find Adam in the garden?", or, "Interesting... Why did god not already know what happened?" I did that without ever looking up. Then I would simply shrug my shoulders and continue "scanning" as if I hadn't said anything. Psychological games are fun... *impish grin*...
Love it ... and Cog you’re right, JWs don’t believe in the trinity. This approach is “non confrontational” and not in the field of doctrinal beliefs.
Reading directly from the bible and mumbling weird shit you come across! Fuck! You’re hilarious! Keep it on the bible...kick the fuckin’ lean to stump out from under their feet.
Just a note - other people’s doctrinal beliefs didn’t phase me (they were wrong and mislead) BUT shit strait out of the bible....
Actually got a text from a couple of days ago. Here is how that went. (Actual texts to follow)...
Tom: "Hello. What was your thoughts on Psalm 115:3?"
Me: "Good morning, (Tom). Hope you are doing well. Honestly, my initial thought about that passage by itself is that it is basically saying, "God is allowed to do whatever he wants to do simply because he is God." Personally, I do not abide by that. Just because somebody has the power/ability to do something does not necessarily mean it is okay to do it. To borrow a phrase from Spiderman's uncle, "With great power comes great responsibility."'
Interestingly enough, I have yet to receive a reply from him.
Sounds like Harvey Weinstein....
Might makes right.
Looks like they sussed you out, prayed about it and determined that you don’t have the right heart condition. In other words, you’re not a mindless simpleton that can be turned into a drone.
Edited to add... you won’t have them calling on you for a longggg while :)
@Whitefire Re: "...you won’t have them calling on you for a longggg while :)"
Aw, maaaan... *pouting*... So I'm back to being unworthy again? And just when I was starting to feel like maybe there was hope for me aftar all... *whimper*... *tears pooling in eyes*...
Oh, wow! I can't believe it! I got another text from Tom this morning! Yay! I'm still worthy! Stand by for his text and my reply....
Tom: "The meaning of Gods name "Jehovah" says it all. The meaning of his name, is define as "he causes to become" so he would have the right to choose how to use his power and his foreknowledge. Because of his love which is his predominate quality, his actions is govern by it. When we look at that scripture in Ps 115:3 it puts us in perspective of how Jehovah is and how we as humans are limited compare to Jehovah."
Hey there, (Tom). Great hearing from you again.
In response to your above text, sure, god is suppose to be all-powerful and all-knowing. Therefore, it should be obvious there is nothing or nobody that could ever stop god from doing exactly what he chooses to do. Moreover, there is no way anybody or anything could ever hold god accountable/responsible for his actions. That is not being disputed nor questioned.
As I have already said, though, just because somebody CAN do something, it does not always mean they are right for doing it. And I personally apply that concept to everybody and everything. Even to myself. The god of the bible (and/or any other religion) is not exempt from this, as far as I am concerned.
And, yes, we humans are EXTREMELY limited in our power/knowledge compared to the god in the bible. Yet, to this very day, we have human rulers in charge of millions of people in various countries all across the globe. Many of these rulers are in TOTAL CONTROL over EVERY aspect of the lives of their citizens. And these rulers answer to NOBODY for whatever actions they take against those citizens, no matter how deplorable those actions may be. For all practical purposes, those rulers are the gods of their citizens (minus the omnipotence/omniscience, of course).
With that in mind, those of us who are humane, and have empathy, and care about our fellow Man would naturally be shocked and outraged if one of those rulers slaughtered an entire villiage of servants within his realm just because a couple of those citizens ate a particular food item the ruler had banned, because the ruler deemed that food worthy to be eaten only by the social elite.
But, hey, it's HIS country and HIS people and HIS rules, right? And the people of his country can certainly do nothing to stop him, and even if somebody tried to protest, that person would be instantly killed by one of the ruler's faithful servants. The servant would then get a wonderful reward from the ruler for killing the protester. And let's say that country is fully independent in regards to necessary resources, and no other country can intervene, even if they knew of the travesties being committed. I'm willing to bet you would object to this ruler just as badly as I would. Sure, it is HIS country and he has the power to do whatever he wants with it. But that most certainly does NOT make it right for him to do so.
So, now, the god in the bible has done many FAAAAAR worse things than the example I gave about the ruler. But somehow gets a pass on his horrendous actions? I'm afraid that simply does not compute with me.
Hmmm...I was waiting for the reply text.
Tom must be researching.
Yeah, I figure it will be a couple of days or more before I hear back from him (if at all)... *chuckle*...
Lo and behold! I actually got another text from my JW buddy a couple of days ago. Stand by for the actual texts. Rather lengthy, so it will be broken up into several posts...
Tom: "Hello (Tin), just checking in on you and seeing how you are doing? Since the shelter in place I have not gotten a chance to stop by in person. How is your family doing with the COVID-19? Here is a scripture of the day/week to think about Psalms 34:18. Let me know your thoughts. Hope to hear from u soon."
Me: "Hey there, (Tom)! Nice hearing from you. Hope you and all the others are doing well.
Doing great here. Matter if fact, nothing has really changed much at all with our daily routines. About the biggest annoyance we've had is not being able to go out to eat on weekends. Although, on the plus side, we seem to be getting a few projects done around the house... *chuckle*...
I glanced at the scripture you sent. Gonna take a little time to think it over, then I'll get back with you.
Meanwhile, keep safe out there. Please tell (John) I said hello."
Me: "Psalms 34:18 - The Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.
My apologies for the delayed response. Weekends are generally busy around the house... *chuckle*...
Naturally, there have been times in my life where I have had my heart broken. And there were a few events along the way that came near to crushing my "spirit". For better or worse, though, I am simply too stubborn and hard-headed to give up or quit... lol...
Looking back, however, I do not recall feeling any presence or comfort of any god during any of those moments. (Continued...)"
Me: "On the contrary, there were a couple of the more intense situations where a good Christian friend or two tried assisting/comforting me using the bible and prayer, but it ended up making matters worse in some ways. (Keep in mind, these were events many years before I ever considered myself to be an atheist.)
Anyway, I suppose what I am saying is that I believe we (humans) are responsible for causing and solving our own problems. I simply cannot put the blame for my problems on some imaginary entity, especially if I am the one responsible for causing the problem due to decisions I made. In that same respect, if I successfully make it through a bad situation, I will give credit where credit is due. Whether it be to myself or to any other persons who may have helped me. But I cannot give credit to an all-knowing/all-powerful being that should have been able to prevent the bad thing in the first place. Hope all that made sense. Looking forward to your reply."
Now to sit back and wait. Oh, and he did not even hint at addressing the points I brought up in our past text session... *chuckle*...
Love it, you great clanker....
I never get much luck with JW's they tend to run away screaming after scratching little marks on my door frame.....
@Old Man Re: "I never get much luck with JW's they tend to run away screaming after scratching little marks on my door frame....."
...lol... That reminds me of a joke... *waiting for groans to die down*....
Not trying to brag, but back during my younger bachelor days I never had to worry about getting a date. I had women kicking and screaming trying to bust down my front door almost every night. Eventually, though, I would end up having to let them out before the neighbors called the cops about all the noise.
@Tin: So....... that's the same thing as saying the Church preys on the downtrodden. We already knew that. Think he can tell us anything new? And by the way........ What in the hell would the scripture have to do with you or anything going on in your life. Didn't you just tell him everything was great?
@Cog Re: "And by the way........ What in the hell would the scripture have to do with you or anything going on in your life. Didn't you just tell him everything was great?"
...*chuckle*..... It actually amuses me a bit to imagine him reading my replies and getting all puzzled and thinking to himself, "I don't understand... How is this guy coping so well without God?"
Oh Tin - what a pleasure to read!!!! He needs his “time” in service :)
I love that they are making an “assumption” that self isolation and pandemic are making people ... “brokenhearted”and “crushed” (of course it’s having an effect, I’m not downplaying) BUT using this as an “in” AND without answering your questions (he’s probably hoping you forgot...it’s been two months).
@Whitefire Re: "He needs his “time” in service :)"
Yeah, I figure I'm just a means for him to check off one of the items on his to-do list. Still, I'll take distraction wherever I can find it lately. I'm actually tempted to invite him to call me for a chat. Wonder if he would accept?... *scratching chin*...
Oh definitely play :) AND you never know what you might say that will cause him to think. I just can remember the arrogance (although I never saw it that way) “when I was Tom”.
It’s fucking embarrassing...
Time for another installment of JW Text Talks. On today's episode, Tom speaks about the "One True God"...
Tom: "Thanks for your reply and your cander. I would that you would not feel any presence or comfort from any god because there is a difference between the true God of the bible those that are fake. Take for an example the false gods that the Egyptiantion worship that prove false to the true God of the Israelites (Exdous chapter 7-11). The Egyptiantion gods could not compare to Jehovah. If one gets to know the true God then it would be a different story to tell."
Me: "Howdy again. Always nice hearing back from you. Thing is, I was raised to believe in the god of the bible as being the ONLY true god. Matter of fact, any other gods ever mentioned (Greek, Roman, Hindu, Pagan, Islamic, etc...) were all considered to be false and/or demonic. (That's what I was taught, at least.) So, as you can see, the god of the bible is the only god I was ever taught to worship.
Interestingly enough, though, all the millions of people who practice those other religions believe their god(s) to be just as real as you believe your god to be. My question is, "Outside what is written in the bible, what makes your god any more real than all those other gods in which you do not believe?" Moreover, if the bible itself is the "True Words of God", then why do we have literally thousands of different Christian sects/denominations based on that one book? And many of those sects are violently opposed to each other. (Continued...)"
Me: "Basically, how do you determine which god is the "True God"? (And remember, the bible is simply the claim. It is not the proof.)
I'm not sure what your situation was, but I was born and raised in a Christian family/community/society. I had no choice in what I was taught to believe at a very young age. Learning about any other religions outside the teachings of the bible was SEVERELY frowned upon (to say the least). Knowing what I know now, though, my mind cannot help but boggle at how so many millions of people believe THEIR god is the ONE true god, while all the other millions of people are totally wrong. Seems to me that an all-knowing and all-powerful perfect god could easily rectify that problem with the snap of its fingers. In which case, you and I would not be having this discussion, because we would both believe in the same god as every other human on the planet."