A fun thought experiment of what if we, atheist, Christian, or whatever you are, all happen to be wrong about the afterlife. If you could 'pick' your second afterlife, which one would it be.
In my opinion, I rather take reincarnation ideas from Far Eastern Religions. Yes, I know they say that reincarnation is terrible and we should all break from this world. But in all honesty, you live an entire life, die, forget about it, and then is reborn into a new life doesn't sound that terrible.
Sure, you might find a shitty life, but you just forget about the moment you die. And yes, I get that you might be a different person after forgetting part, but is that a bad thing? I wouldn't want a craze serial killer coming back with the same personality and knowledge from the past life.
This sound far more attractive than being stuck in heaven or hell all day. One sounds boring and the other seem meaningless mean.
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Hmmm I prefer the merging with a "oneness" idea, but I am pretty sure that oblivion is what awaits, I am down with that.
I know several people who claim past lives....I no longer ask them details. As I study history, and knowing the documented conditions of the time, even a simple question like "what underwear did you have?" ( a question that we can all answer...yeh I know) causes a lot of thought and in most cases a completely anachronistic answer. That is normally followed by tears or anger or accusations of bias...whatever. It's not worth the trouble anymore! But on the basis of my anecdotal evidence it is as big a crock of shite as any medium or fortune teller's claims.
@David Re: "What if we're all wrong!"
Simple... Then it all must have been part of god's "perfect plan"... lol...
Yeah, that argument always seems weak to me, considering perfect plan could mean that the believer could die a horrible death, be dirt poor, and it all because God wants you to. Though it also clashes with the ideal with free will or human agency, making the whole 'pull up by the bootstraps' thing meaningless.
Something akin to the matrix would be cool.
That would be fun, especially if we could take it over.
@David: Wrong about what? This is a fundamental problem with people posing as atheists when they haven't a clue what they are talking about. Atheists are not making claims. Atheists are asking for evidence. If an atheist makes an assertion at all it is the assertion that there are no good facts or evidence supporting the God claims. That is verifiable through observation, study, logic, and reason.
RE: In my opinion, I rather take reincarnation ideas from Far Eastern Religions.
REINCARNATION IDEAS: YOU HAVE BEEN SOLD A MAGICAL BAG OF BULLSHIT. It sounds good only because you do not understand it. I have lived in Asia for 22 years. I was a student of Zen and heavy into martial arts for 25 years. I had to drop the KARMA BULLSHIT and the REINCARNATION bullshit just to give Zen philosophy and Koans a chance. (Don't throw the baby out with the bath oil.)
REINCARNATION IS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HORRORS OF ASIA, CAST SYSTEMS, AND MANKIND'S INHUMANITY TO MAN.
Not more than 20 years ago, if a Korean man had a female baby it was killed. If you had female babies you were being punished for things you did in a past life. Frequently the wife was blamed because Koreans were to ignorant to understand biology.
If you had a deformed baby or one that was mentally challenged, it would be hidden away so that your neighbors did not find out. Obviously you were given that baby for your jaded past or the evil you once did.
If you loos an arm or leg at work, it is because you deserved it. It is your Karma put upon you by the terrible things you did in a past life. If you are born poor it is because you deserve to be poor. And if you are born rich that is because you deserve to be rich. Everyone has a place that they are born into and that is their place because that is their Karma. The doctrine of rebirth is every bit as horrible as the idea of being born into a state of sin and worthy of death should you not convert to the Christian faith or Islam. You would have to be insane to actually believe in these things. I know Christians and many Muslims say they believe in their religious bullshit but many Muslims just like Christians never really read their religious texts. If the Muslims ever did read their religious text they would know Mecca was not the birth place of Muhammad. It is right there in black and white.
In reading the Bible I do not find "being born into a state of sin". It is not in the OT or NT. It is a common myth surrounding the Bible, but not actually in there.
This post just got too long as I was listing all the Churches that believe Original Sin Came from the story of Adam and Eve including SDA. Yes the Bible does not say it. According to Religions, that has nothing to do with it at all/ Original Sin if not believed to some degree by every Christian faith on the planet, it is addressed by them in their dogma.
I agree that most churches do believe in original sin, but I don't believe in original sin.
If original sin is not in the Bible, than the God in the Bible does not make everyone “born into a state of sin and worthy of death.”
Unless you belong to one of the faiths that actually interpret original sin from Adams fall from grace. Which is most christian faiths. Including SDA.
"When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil." "This wording was voted by the Church in the 1981 General Conference Session. It has been official Adventist belief for a generation. Adventists are born, not condemned, but with "weaknesses and tendencies to evil."
So how are you SDA and still do not believe in their dogma?
Why do you think I am SDA? I have never claimed that, and have never been. Is it something I said?
@JO: Apologies - I thought you had. Must have been one of the other theists.
For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me- Psalm 51:5
The Bible clearly says that all fall short of God’s glory, all have sinned.
We’re all imperfect and God is going to destroy this world which is cursed with imperfection. God doesn’t want to destroy us, so he provides a way to salvation through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. All you have to do is seek God’s saving grace.
My first time talking with you, so welcome.
Was David referring to himself or the whole human race in Psalms 51? He uses the term I, not we.
Was he talking about how he felt when he was confronted with his sin, or the state of all humans at birth? The prophet had just confronted him with his sin, and he was responding to how he felt. He was remorseful, repentant, and feeling shameful.
When we are confronted with, and recognize our sins, we feel as if we are rotten to the core, or as David put it, born a sinner.
The official name is the Doctrine of Original Sin. It was not an OT or early Church doctrine.
I know it is a common belief among Christians, but it is not in the Bible. Here are some references.
“Parents must not be put to death for the sins of their children, nor children for the sins of their parents. Those deserving to die must be put to death for their own crimes.
“The people will no longer quote this proverb: ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, but their children’s mouths pucker at the taste.’ All people will die for their own sins—those who eat the sour grapes will be the ones whose mouths will pucker.
Ezekiel 18:1-20 spells this out clearly.
19 “‘What?’ you ask. ‘Doesn’t the child pay for the parent’s sins?’ No! For if the child does what is just and right and keeps my decrees, that child will surely live. 20 The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.
Don't you see the obvious, that the god you bend your knee to is a sadistic monster?
Do my bidding or you will spend an eternity in hell. That is not love, that is not even tolerance.
the repulsive idea a newborn baby is imperfect, because of some supernatural curse, from an archaic superstitious creation myth is beyond stupid, as is the coincidence of you, Pisstake, showing up here within hours of that dimwitted clown ferguson being booted off here.
BS, your bible claim your deity has a cruel and barbaric disregard for all life, and has destroyed it all at least once in a global genocidal flood. That aside the insanity of believing a human blood sacrifice, is a deity's loving way of saving us all, form a curse it imposed, for a rule being broken that it had created, after carelessly leaving a fruit bearing tree in harms way, knowing exactly what would happen (if it's omniscient) as theists claim, is too idiotic to be worthy of consideration.
Bollocks, it hasn't made your posts any less ill-informed, or idiotic, and it hasn't made you any less petty, bigoted, odious or objectionable. If that stupid bigoted ignorance represents a "state of grace" then you can shove it where only a skilled surgeon, and qualified proctologist will be able to retrieve it.
How a single act of "disobedience" by two naive people who have no idea of what they are doing, can render a whole world imperfect? The said world being brought in existence by a perfect deity.
Sold a bunch of bullshit? Hm? I know about the Karma thing, but I guess I forgot about it. Truth be told, the reincarnation I was thinking about is much more random and without no real direction or purpose. No morals or ideals control it, just dumb luck. Sounds much fairer, if cynical, then anything we humans can come up with.
As for your first statement, sorry, I guess. I'm not asking this as a serious question, just a fun little idea to kick around. I did mention in the first part of the sentence, Athiest, Christain, or otherwise. Though I guess it's unlikely to find a Christain on this site, or another, to actually question their ideas and explore other options of what ifs.
@David: Not your fault. Western countries are being fed a huge line of bullshit when it comes to Buddhism. The Dali Lama was a monster who lived in a castle stole from the starving poor outside his gates and lived as a king. The Zen Buddhist all wrapped up in their faith flew Kamikaze's into ships for rewards in the afterlife not unlike (the myth of Muslims flying planes into the twin towers and bringing them down.) Sorry, I have never bought the myth that three buildings could collapse into their own basements and melt in molten metal for weeks because of two planes. Perhaps the Islamic suicide bombers would be a better analogy. People in the west are exposed to Buddhist mysticism and philosophy, and I fully admit there is a lot of interesting stuff there. "Live in the moment." Jesus actually hints at the same thing in his "Sermon On The Mount" "Think not of tomorrow." Well that is all fine and good but we do have goals, rent to pay, projects we are working on, children to raise, and a whole lot move. All the wisdom in the world will not get you a cup of coffee if you do not have a dollar in your pocket. Anyway... Buddhism, Reincarnation and Karma are really no better than any other whacked out religious ideology.
Just want to correct the myth that the kamakazis were doing it all for fanatacism: they started that when we were firestorming civilians in their homelands. If your homelands were under such attacks -pure spiteful mass industrial-scale war crimes just to be causing death on an unprecedented scale-what human wouldn't fly a ton of explosives into one of their death carriers or take as many of them with you as possible?
Yes superstition helped, but an atheist in similar circumstances would suicide flying a plane into a building or warship, if that's all they could do.
I live in the real world, and speculating whether Santa wears argyle or white socks, or if there is an afterlife, is a waste of time.
Sorry, I'm a fantasy writer. I live half my day in the make-believe, learning about myself and trying to figure out the real world from there.
Do you use a writing guide? I don't know what they are called. I can't remember. They are like an outlines for writers. I have several on my computer at work but can not find them because I don't remember what they are called.
Writing guides? I think the outline is the word you are looking for, or maybe plotline? Whatever it is, I rarely use a physical copy. I build one in my head for the main plot points and then work on the journey from there.
Man up, get over it.
And no I'm not cynical, even though my life has taken on a rather shitty turn, of late.
My wife of twenty years has turned out to be a callous avericious cunt. My sister has tested positive for TB and is due a battery of tests.
My chronic back pain that is forcing early retirement will have to suck it up if I want afford luxuries like food, and sleeping indoors, after my wife's solicitors have finished giving me the financial equivalent of an unlubricated colonoscopy.
Not a bad month all in all. I may start a blog, if only to tell that bigoted moron Israel Folau to fuck off. He'd probably sue me the way my luck's running.
Aww mate...a rough time. Feel free to PM me and have a rattling good whinge. I know it works.
Otherwise have a hug...HUGGGGG!
Sorry to hear that Sheldon. That really sucks.
And your response to your detractors?
Um... Okay. I hope things to turn out good for you! And nice song. So that where people get that track from.
That sucks Sheldon.
I know that series of events in my life would rattle me to my core.
Well you got this crazy bunch of regulars here at least. Along with a few guest dumb enough to try religious apologetics to educate.