What if we're all wrong!

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Tin-Man's picture
@Jo Re: " You can't take

@Jo Re: " You can't take 21st century understanding of science,overlay on an ancient text that was not a scientific treatise. Then ignore the original audience, ignore the type of literature, and ignore the purpose of the text."

Oooooooh.... Okay! I get it now! An ALL-powerful and ALL-knowing god that created THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE was absolutely CLUELESS as to how it might pass along vital knowledge to the very beings it created because it obviously made them too STUPID to understand. Therefore, it thought it would be better to totally mislead them in regards to many important scientific facts that could have helped them tremendously, and instead allowed them to discover these scientific facts for themselves over a period of thousands of years. All the while, however, having to fight and struggle the entire way (often at the threat of torturous death) against those "truly faithful" individuals/groups who determined their scientific research to be blasphemous and "demonic" because it was against that god's will. Excellent! Got it! Makes perfect sense now. Thanks.

Oh, wait... There IS one more possibility....

Maybe basic mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, and cosmology were all TOTALLY DIFFERENT way back then than they are now. And your god somehow forgot to update his "perfect book", OR maybe it simply didn't think it would be very important for future generations to know such things. Yep, I can just see the ol' fart sitting way upon high looking down upon us puny creatures and thinking to itself, "Aw, crap... I KNEW I should have been a little more specific and accurate with that science stuff. Damn... I have GOT TO LEARN to trust my instincts. Honestly, though, I never imagined they would end up being smart enough to figure out all that shit."

(A couple of small edits for clarity.)

David Killens's picture
There are alternate

There are alternate possibilities. This god was a complete idiot, it could not make decent instructions. Of else it does not exist, and everything in the bible was not divine inspiration, but the ramblings of many different nomadic, brutal, and primitive sheep fuckers high on weed and hash.

Sheldon's picture
Jo "Because there is nothing

Jo "Because there is nothing analogous to God."

Of course there are, mermaids, unicorns, leprechauns, dragons, garden fairies, any unevidenced fiction basically.

Explain how the deity you believe in is any different than Zeus or Thor? Beyond still being in vogue with the superstitious obviously.

Get off my lawn's picture


"Explain how the deity you believe in is any different than Zeus or Thor? Beyond still being in vogue with the superstitious obviously."

Ohh! Ooh! I know! Pick me! Pick me!

Uhhhh, you see - there is this book called the Bible, in which God's word is written. And since it contains God's inerrant word, what the Bible says must be true, so therefore God exists. Neither Zeus nor Thor wrote the Bible, so they cannot exist, and are figments of superstitious minds from millennia ago!

Calilasseia's picture
And it's time for the

And it's time for the editorial piece again ...

Because there is nothing analogous to God. And because I am not that great of a writer.

Oddly enough, this is one of the points I've been making repeatedly in various places, namely, that the moment any genuine evidence for a god type entity arrives for our perusal, said evidence will point to something so radically different from all past human experience, that the people best placed to understand it will be particle physicists, because they deal with counter--intuitive concepts on a routine basis in their research. Indeed, I expressed that very view in an earlier post in this thread, namely this one. Apparently you failed to read that before posting your above comment, and failed to notice in addition that I had, via said comment, already addressed this issue.

This still does not, however, absolve supernaturalists from drawing bad analogies, because I've been able to demonstrate a proper analytical understanding of relevant concepts repeatedly here. As a corollary, it's not for me to lower my standards to accept whatever fabrications supernaturalists think will prop up their assertions, but for supernaturalists to learn to develop some rigour.

Moving on ...

You are creating a straw man argument.

No I'm not. Once again, let's break this down into the relevant elementary steps, shall we?

Step 1: The magic man from the requisite mythology, is asserted to possess the ability to acquire perfect foreknowledge of the future.

Step 2: As a corollary of [1] above, said magic man must necessarily know in advance, that any errors attributed thereto will be discovered.

Step 3: The magic man from the requisite mythology, is also asserted to possess the fantastic powers required to instantiate an entire universe.

Step 4: As a corollary of [3] above,. said magic man must possess a level of understanding of physics at the very least, that if anything far surpasses the understanding of 21st century physicists.

Step 5: As a corollary of [2] and [4] above, any genuine entity that exists, to which assertions [1] and [3] apply, must also be able to know that any errors attributed thereto, will be detected by persons with far less understanding of physics.

Step 6: As a corollary of [5], any errors present in the requisite mythology, attributed thereto, either [6A] are not errors arising from said entity, but errors arising from humans lacking even elementary understanding of basic physics, which can be discarded on that basis, or [6B] point to incompetence on the part of said entity. Both [6A] and [6B], whichever one happens to be true, lead to the requisite assertions being discardable as demonstrable errors, and the provenance of the mythology as a purported source of reliable factual information to he cast in serious doubt.

This isn't a "strawman argument", it's a proper deductive analysis, based upon taking supernaturalist assertions to their logical conclusions.

You can't take 21st century understanding of science,overlay on an ancient text that was not a scientific treatise.

Except that there are numerous supernaturalists who do regard this mythology as a scientific treatise. See: creationists.

Furthermore, pointing out that a mythology contains demonstrable errors is a perfectly proper exercise, especially when said mythology is presented by adherents thereof as purportedly constituting a special, privileged brand of "wisdom". Doing so refutes that epistemological assertion.

Then ignore the original audience, ignore the type of literature, and ignore the purpose of the text.

Except that YOU are ignoring the manner in which this text is regarded by present day adherents thereof, which is the point I am making here. The original authors and their contemporary audience can be forgiven for treating this mythology as fact, because they simply didn't know any better. But present day adherents who take the same stance, have a vast body of subsequent knowledge to call upon, against which to test the assertions of this mythology. Their failure to do so points to a woeful level of indolence on their part.

Then try to use your straw man as evidence against the reliability of the text.

It isn't a "straw mam" argument, it's demonstrable fact. The mythology in question contains errors that would NOT have been the product of any genuine fantastically gifted entity, of the sort asserted therein to exist. This is inescapable.

You are creating another straw man argument. The text does not say what you are implying it does.

Yes it does, and anyone reading that text without the requisite ideological blinkers can see this.

The striped branches in the water is not what God told him to do and the Bible is not saying that is how you breed multi colored animals.

So why does it assert that these organisms arose, simply as a result of arranging for the parents to shag alongside coloured sticks? This is precisely what that passage asserts. And this assertion is utterly fatuous in the light of even 19th century genetics, let alone anything more advanced.

It may have been some superstition on Jacobs part, but not on God's. He only bred the strong animals and it is not clear what the purpose of the multi colored branches was.

Ahem, if this is so, why is the connection I have just described asserted to be in place in that passage?

Look, drop the attempt to prop up this drivel with apologetics, and address the concepts that are clearly present within that passage.

God told Jacob he would help him prosper through many highly valued sheep, even though his father in law was working against him.

So what? This is an irrelevance from the standpoint of the assertion that is clearly contained within that text. Your pathetic attempt to hand-wave this away with a change of subject isn't going to work with people who paid attention in class.

This is just what happens in the next chapter and it had nothing to do with the "biological absurdity" you imply the text is prescribing.

Excuse me? That biological absurdity is clearly asserted to be the mechanism that produced the requisite organisms. You cannot escape from that embarrassing fact.

Using your line of reasoning I would say that the Bible is divinely inspired because it knew the universe had a beginning thousands of years before science discovered this fact.

Do NOT treat science as a branch of apologetics. This will only work out badly for you.

First of all, the authors thereof knew nothing of the sort, this was merely asserted to be the case. Furthermore, this mythology isn't the only mythology containing a "beginning" assertion. Greek mythology has one. Mayan mythology has one. Egyptian mythology has one. Daoism has one. There's a nice compartmentalised list of the creation myths humans have fabricated over time you can gaze at here. Your mythology isn't unique in this respect, and isn't even unique with respect to a creation ex nihilo myth - the Sumerians had one, which was plundered and plagiarised to a readily detectable extent by the authors of your mythology. The "global flood" myth is a wholesale borrowing from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

The data here is witheringly lethal to your apologetics.

Second, cosmological physicists are, as I've covered at length here and elsewhere, devising hypotheses for the instantiation of the observable universe, in terms of entities and interactions that are postulated to have existed eternally. In short, their view consists of "what we see had a beginning, but what it came from didn't".

The Bible says there was light in the universe before there was the sun or stars. Until about 60 years ago science did not know this.

Correction: what physicists postulate is that the universe in its earliest moments contained photons. Not all photons correspond to visible light. Furthermore, photons and other particles are a necessary consequence of the universe possessing various symmetries. If you want to try and peddle some apologetic fabrication to the effect that people 3,000 years ago knew about gauge symmetries, then every physicist on the planet will point and laugh.

In the past atheists could use the Bible claims of the universe having a beginning and light before the sun as evidence against its reliability. Now we know that it was right all along.

No it wasn't. Because, wait for it, during the early epoch in which photons first appeared, the intrinsic temperature of the universe was too hot for stable neutral atoms to form. Without stable neutral atoms, a solid body such as the Earth could not exist. Except that, oops, the Earth is asserted in Genesis 1 to have been "created" before the appearance of light. There goes your apologetics in a puff of factual smoke.

Previously you said there was no light in the early universe

No I didn't. I hereby challenge you to back up this assertion with a citation, knowing that you will fail.

but I have it on many good sources that there was.

Once again, what part of "not all photons equate to visible light" do you not understand?

Science has shown us that it is not Zeus in his anger causing lightning. But science has not, and cannot disprove God. All the questions about God still remain, and science has not answered them, or made them irrelevant.

No they don't. Assertions that your magic man micro-manages the universe to move toward a predestined end, have been roundly flushed down the toilet, not least by quantum indeterminacy.

Plus, you've missed the point by several light years yet again. What science has succeeded in doing, is destroying supernaturalist assertions, particularly when those assertions have observational consequences that manifestly never occurred. This is subtly but rigorously different from destroying the 'god concept'. I've openly and explicitly stated that science hasn't destroyed the latter, not least because I've made reference to that concept in order to present specific, well-defined ideas of my own, such as the notion I presented in that past post, that any genuine god type entity found to exist will be best understood by particle physicists. What I'm saying isn't that science has "disproven" any god type entity in the most generic sense, but that it has rendered asserted mythological candidates for the role absurd.

Do learn to pay attention to what I actually state here, as opposed to your own fabricated version thereof.

Dark One's picture
I'd just have aliens from the

I'd just have aliens from the far distant future bring us all back to life inside a computer emulation of a more idealised version of our universe or something like that. You would still have some of the problems you would have with a slightly boring more traditional super-natural based eternal life just minus anything particularly religious about it, unless people decide to start worshipping the aliens as a new religion.

rat spit's picture


I’m 38. From 33 to 36 I lived with chronic lower back pain. I worked a laborious job and was quite surprised by the end of each day that I hadn’t simply given up or offed my self.

And then - I discovered that if you relax tension in the apex of the heart, it stops inflammation of nerves; joints; ligaments; etc. - in the lower back at least.

For what it’s worth, you well endowed theist hater, I wish you and your sore back the best of luck.

Try that little trick out. From “the bottom of my heart”; It could be the difference between a life remainder of excruciating pain and a relative bounty of mobility.

Cognostic's picture

1. Find an ice pick with a wooden handle.
2. Heat the tip of the ice pick over an open flame until it is white hot.
3. Insert the ice pick into the anus and push up until you reach the apex of the heart.
4. By the time you get there it should be completely relaxed and your back-pain a thing of the past.
5. No one has ever been required to treat themselves more than once with this remedy.

Good Luck.

You might also try the Red Blood of Jesus Handkerchief. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx0bHOsBtPc

Tin-Man's picture
@Cog Re: "3. Insert the ice

@Cog Re: "3. Insert the ice pick into the anus and push up until you reach the apex of the heart."

Damn, Cog, that is some of the most stupid shit I have ever heard. And here I was thinking your dumb ass was smarter than that. For everybody's sake, please lay off the fermented bananas, you moron... *rolling eyes*... Look, even ANY basic EMT medic knows you do not insert the ice pick into the anus. Geeeez.... For the males, the ice pick must be inserted into the end of the penis to be pushed up to the heart. And for females it must be inserted into the opening of the urethra. It ain't rocket science, dude. Sadly, this is the kind of shit that happens when non-medical persons try to give medical advice... *shaking head in disbelief*... *muttering to self*... Through the anus... Hmph!... How totally ridiculous....

Cognostic's picture
@TinMan: FUCK! That

@TinMan: FUCK! That explains why I still have back pain. I'm going to try the damn Jesus Handkerchief.

Sheldon's picture
@Cognostic, like my

@Cognostic, like my avaricious spouse has left me an ice pick when she cleared out, while I was working another 11.5 hr shift.

Not to worry, the procedure doesn't seem that far removed from what her vampiric solicitors have planned for me. By they time she, and they are done, the pain is the only thing she won't want half of.

Cognostic's picture
My whole life I have told

My whole life I have told people how everything they know can be stripped away in a second. How relationships, jobs, money, success, etc... are never permanent. It sucks to go through this kind of shit, but it is never the end and once it is done, you just start over again. Hang in there!!! You are obviously more intelligent and more capable than the average person. It's only "change."

Sheldon's picture
Thanks Cog. To be honest she

Thanks Cog. To be honest she's behaved so badly it's actually helped me move on a little faster if that makes sense. The grieving over the failed relationship might have lasted longer if she hadn't treated me and my family with such utter contempt.

The money is a wrench, but as a friend pointed out, think of it as only a number, then move on.

I'm in a much better place now than I was a few weeks ago.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture

GIF mate. Having been through that mill, lost houses and security, then bounced back 3 fekking times...it never gets easy, but it does get bearable.
But then, looking back, I was probably a prick at the time.

Cognostic's picture
I'm heading to the

I'm heading to the Philippines July 31, come on along. You need a break. Avoid Manila and fly into Clark. I am shopping for a house, I will be there until the 23ed.
The next step you take is into the unknown.... why not make it an adventure?

Sheldon's picture
That's a very kind offer. I

That's a very kind offer. I am on holiday soon in Spain, with family. Financially I have to wait see how bad it's going to get before I can make any long term plans, but i will keep the house and what I've invested in lieu of a pension, plus some of my savings hopefully, if she doesn't change her current demand. Sadly she pulled out of mediation, and didn't say why, telling me she's letting her solicitors deal with it all. So this is an unhappy development, and I can't help but worry it means a larger demand.

Sadly UK divorce law is decades out of date, and simply regards all assets as equally owned where there are no children involved.

I have to just keep working and hope for the best.

Cognostic's picture
@Sheldon: SPAIN! Great

@Sheldon: SPAIN! Great idea. A glass of Sangria, a plate of paella, a red-orange splashed sunset and a waft of classical flamenco guitar on the summer breeze. Raise your glass towards the Philippines and send me a toast, I will do the same towards Spain and we can both wonder what the less fortunate people are doing and count our blessings. (Blessings - not in the religious sense of the word of course. God fucking hates us!!!) Living a good life is the best revenge. Even in the midst of all this shit... don't forget to stop and notice the butterflies. There is still beauty in life and in the world around you. Get lots of rest and take care of yourself first. Only then will you have the energy to deal with the rest of the shit. Take care.

rat spit's picture


Have I ever lied to you, Sheldon? Take the advise. At this point it doesn’t sound like you have anything else to lose. My sincerest apologies for that as well, good sir.

rat spit's picture
OMG. Like WTF? I wuz jus

OMG. Like WTF? I wuz jus trying to help.

Actually, the REAL technique is a lot like relaxing your sphincter when you take a shit. (Or was it a piss? I don’t remember)

1) Mentally locate the apex of your heart
2) Relax the apex of your heart
3) Enjoy the benefits of a pain free lower back without the potentially harmful effects of taking opioids for pain.

Don’t want to try it? What can I do? Don’t shoot the messenger!

Sheldon's picture
Thank you. I have medicated

Thank you. I have meditatedfor many years, since I learned how to in Aikido when I was in my twenties and first developed chronic back pain. I have a number of coping techniques, but had relied too heavily on strong prescription pain killer in order to work long hours and save enough to retire or work only part time. As my wife had worked part time since we married, and I paid all the Bill's barring some of the groceries.

She knew this as I had been completely honest about it, and yet she ran up debt behind my back, and started divorce proceeding without telling me, and before she moved out. Her solicitors immediately put a matrimonial care order on the house, the house I bought before we even met.

The last few weeks have been a massive eye opener.

I think it was Bismarck who said only a fool learns from experience, but often in our lives this is precisely what most of us do. Especially when it involves relationships.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ SHeldon

@ SHeldon

Fuck man...thats is almost my story for one of them....except I forgave her.we 'reconciled'..not realising she was a chronic alcoholic who slept with my best customers, defrauded my company and eventually when I was bled dry, chucked me out so she could live with a fucking real estate agent (now that smarts).
Fortunately he robbed her blind and I got stuck with my stepson ( A great kid) as she would not/could not look after him.

So go to Spain my friend, get laid, get drunk lie on the beach and verbally punch any evangelists you meet....it's very cathartic.

LogicFTW's picture
@Sheldon & @OMSC

@Sheldon & @OMSC

Jeez you guys have had trials. While my childhood was kind of rough, ever since reaching adulthood life has only gotten better for me.

I feel like I would not have dealt with these setbacks half as well as you guys have. If my wife left me, especially in circumstances like you guy shave described, I am not sure what I would do, but I feel like I would do some real stupid destructive shit in response. I also would be taken completely by surprise and could not prepare my self for such an event in any way.

rat spit's picture


In Buddhism there is a tendency to situate one’s self on a meditation object. Do you have a theme that guides your meditations?

For me, personally, I like to use my penis as my meditation object.

First, I start off by swearing at it and punching it. I say, “YOU’RE WORTHLESS AND PUNY!”

This leads to guilt. So I apologize to my penis and tell it nice things, “at least you’re not covered in warts. At least you don’t have herpes.”

After about 40 mins of deep concentration I achieve a full erection which lasts about three minutes.

It gives me an astounding sense of positive self worth. I learnt the method at a workshop several years ago. It was more of, like, a homeless camp, come to think of it. A lot of naked guys with beards and sleeping bags. Alcohol ... a LOT of alcohol.

I can host a free webinar, if anyone’s interested?

LogicFTW's picture
Okay that got a laugh out of

Okay that got a laugh out of me.

Tin-Man's picture
@Rat Spit Re: "It was more

@Rat Spit Re: "It was more of, like, a homeless camp..."

FYI... You are suppose to use the term "Transient Refuge" now. Homeless camp is way too politically incorrect these days. Wouldn't want to upset the Snowflakes.

Sheldon's picture
Ok guys, and gals, something

Ok guys, and gals, something weird and technical blocked me from logging in the last week. Managed to sort it finally through AR's Facebook page.

I thought was never going to be able to post again, multiple emails just kept getting automated response.

Phew, I'm back, yippeee.....

Now I have to ask, did anyone demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity while I was gone?

In Spirit's picture


Darn it Sheldon

Evidence was given and you missed it all....lol

..........................................................................................................................................but it was not objective...bazinga !!

Sheldon's picture
I'm just so glad to be back.

I'm just so glad to be back. In the last two months the big bang theory has ended after 12 years, game of thrones has ended after 12 years, and my marriage has ended after 12 years. Now I was pretty miffed about two of those, and also my marriage is going to cost me big time, but not being able to post here was the worst, well it was pretty bad anyway.

I;mmmmm backkkkkk...yessssss....

David Killens's picture
Welcome back Sheldon, let's

Welcome back Sheldon, let's get another run of twelve years going.

Sheldon's picture
Thanks David, it sounds good.

Thanks David, it sounds good.


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