What if we're all wrong!

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Dark One's picture
For all we know God, if he

For all we know God, if he turned out to exist, he doesn't but lets just say he did, will reward atheists with heaven because we did nothing to try to please him in life. If we were good it was just because we were good and that's what he likes, this was a test to see if we would be good under our own volition with no outside interference . Religious people who worshipped him are brown nosers who were only good to please him, they spread misinformation and lies about him and they will go straight to hell. For all we know that's how this is going to work, it makes about as much sense.

ferguson1951's picture
Brothers, after week being in

Brothers, after weeks being in this forum I can only say this: How wrong can you be and yet believe you are right.
You give me a good lesson.
Lord, have mercy on them because they don't know what they are doing!!!

Dark One's picture
The only thing we really

The only thing we really believe is that you should only believe something if you have evidence for it. If you want to think this is a wrong belief then that's fine. You can believe the moon is made from blue cheese there's nothing we can do about it. Don't bother trying to convince anyone else that moon is made from blue cheese though. Unless you have something other the fact that you just believe it because you like the idea a cheesy moon.

ferguson1951's picture
I don't buy it. By now I know

I don't buy it. By now I know you well enough. Your arrogance is such that you keep changing the tune so that you can feel you always get the upper hand.

Sheldon's picture
ferguson1951 "How wrong can

ferguson1951 "How wrong can you be and yet believe you are right."

You have definitely set a new benchmark for this as far as I'm concerned. I can't ever remember encountering anyone more consistently wrong about so much as you. FYI you owe me another fucking irony meter as well.

ferguson1951's picture
Sheldon, your avatar says it

Sheldon, your avatar says it all!!

Sheldon's picture
@ferguson,

@ferguson,

My avatar is meant as irony, something else you don't understand.

Calilasseia's picture
Apparently Ferguson never

Apparently Ferguson never read Matthew 7:5 ...

ferguson1951's picture
Your ignorance knows no depth

Your ignorance knows no depth low enough.

https://www.gotquestions.org/do-not-judge.html

IS THIS NOT JUDGING?

Matthew 23 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Jesus Condemns the Pharisees and the Teachers of the Law of Moses
23 Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:

2 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moses. 3 So obey everything they teach you, but don’t do as they do. After all, they say one thing and do something else.

4 They pile heavy burdens on people’s shoulders and won’t lift a finger to help. 5 Everything they do is just to show off in front of others. They even make a big show of wearing Scripture verses on their foreheads and arms, and they wear big tassels[a] for everyone to see. 6 They love the best seats at banquets and the front seats in the meeting places. 7 And when they are in the market, they like to have people greet them as their teachers.

8 But none of you should be called a teacher. You have only one teacher, and all of you are like brothers and sisters. 9 Don’t call anyone on earth your father. All of you have the same Father in heaven. 10 None of you should be called the leader. The Messiah is your only leader. 11 Whoever is the greatest should be the servant of the others. 12 If you put yourself above others, you will be put down. But if you humble yourself, you will be honored.

13-14 You Pharisees and teachers of the Law of Moses are in for trouble! You’re nothing but show-offs. You lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. You won’t go in yourselves, and you keep others from going in.[b]

15 You Pharisees and teachers of the Law of Moses are in for trouble! You’re nothing but show-offs. You travel over land and sea to win one follower. And when you have done so, you make that person twice as fit for hell as you are.

16 You are in for trouble! You are supposed to lead others, but you are blind. You teach that it doesn’t matter if a person swears by the temple. But you say that it does matter if someone swears by the gold in the temple. 17 You blind fools! Which is greater, the gold or the temple that makes the gold sacred?

18 You also teach that it doesn’t matter if a person swears by the altar. But you say that it does matter if someone swears by the gift on the altar. 19 Are you blind? Which is more important, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Anyone who swears by the altar also swears by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple also swears by God, who lives there. 22 To swear by heaven is the same as swearing by God’s throne and by the one who sits on that throne.

23 You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You give God a tenth of the spices from your garden, such as mint, dill, and cumin. Yet you neglect the more important matters of the Law, such as justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the important things you should have done, though you should not have left the others undone either. 24 You blind leaders! You strain out a small fly but swallow a camel.

25 You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You wash the outside of your cups and dishes, while inside there is nothing but greed and selfishness. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of a cup, and then the outside will also be clean.

27 You Pharisees and teachers are in for trouble! You’re nothing but show-offs. You’re like tombs that have been whitewashed.[c] On the outside they are beautiful, but inside they are full of bones and filth. 28 That’s what you are like. Outside you look good, but inside you are evil and only pretend to be good.

29 You Pharisees and teachers are nothing but show-offs, and you’re in for trouble! You build monuments for the prophets and decorate the tombs of good people. 30 And you claim that you would not have taken part with your ancestors in killing the prophets. 31 But you prove that you really are the relatives of the ones who killed the prophets. 32 So keep on doing everything they did. 33 You are nothing but snakes and the children of snakes! How can you escape going to hell?

34 I will send prophets and wise people and experts in the Law of Moses to you. But you will kill them or nail them to a cross or beat them in your meeting places or chase them from town to town. 35 That’s why you will be held guilty for the murder of every good person, beginning with the good man Abel. This also includes Barachiah’s son Zechariah,[d] the man you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I can promise that you people living today will be punished for all these things!

Jesus Loves Jerusalem
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem! Your people have killed the prophets and have stoned the messengers who were sent to you. I have often wanted to gather your people, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. But you wouldn’t let me. 38 And now your temple will be deserted. 39 You won’t see me again until you say,

“Blessed is the one who comes
in the name of the Lord.”

Tin-Man's picture
@Fig-... (Dang. My bad.)... -

@Fig-... (Dang. My bad.)... - @Fergie

By golly, despite what the others may say about you, please allow me to express how much your presence here among us is so greatly appreciated. You, good sir, with your lofty sermons and inspired words of wisdom over these last few days, have single-handedly done more good for the atheist community than all the atheist members here combined over the last several months. Bravo!... *clap-clap-clap*... Bravo! Good show, ol' boy! Because of your selfless Herculean efforts, the adverse and detrimental effects of religious dogmas have been showcased in a most splendidly graphic fashion such as to demonstrate beyond any shadow of a doubt how adherence to archaic myths of a mystical mysogynistic megalomaniac messiah can erode the mind into a wickedly wanton well of woeful waste water.

Keep up the good work, Fergie! Don't let any of these other assholes on here deter you from your mission! You must endeavor to persevere!

ferguson1951's picture
I do not have a mission. I am

I do not have a mission. I am just trying to fathom out the "strange" way atheists think, reason, defend their atheism and attack religion.
Attacking religion and believers is like preaching to the choir. There is so much that can be criticized. Attacking atheists means nothing to me. I simply seem to understand that you put a banana in front of an atheist with glasses and he will say that's a parrot. There is absolutely no "logic" in an atheist mind, nothing you can get hold of in order to produce even a moderately reasonable set of thoughts.
An atheist mind is like tombola: any number can come out.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jo - In reading the Bible I

Jo - In reading the Bible I do not find "being born into a state of sin". It is not in the OT or NT. It is a common myth surrounding the Bible, but not actually in there.

---------------------------------------------------------
As the new user Pistós pointed out:

Psalm 51:5 - Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Now I was taught that Psalms was part of the Old Testament. Time for a new round of mental gymnastics?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Oh and bonus points:

Oh and bonus points:

ten commandments - You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me...

Jo's picture
@ Nyarlathotep

@ Nyarlathotep

I addressed this with Pistos on another forum.

The sentence after the one you quoted above is relevant.
Ex 20:6 "but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments".
When you read to two together, as they were written, a different understanding is evident.
If someone has a Father that keeps the commandments, he and 999 future generations will be blessed.
Even if the son worships idols. But that wouldn't make sense.
This should lead us to determine that our understanding is wrong.
There are many passages throughout the Bible that explain in more detail what is meant.

The "punishing of the children" is a warning to parents that their bad choices affect their children and future generations.
Here is how the CJB translates Exodus 34:5-8
"...God, merciful and compassionate, slow to anger, rich in grace and truth; showing grace to the thousandth generation, forgiving offenses, crimes and sins; yet not exonerating the guilty, but causing the negative effects of the parents’ offenses to be experienced by their children and grandchildren, and even by the third and fourth generations...”

Nyarlathotep's picture
@Jo

@Jo
Why can't you see it? It's right there in what you quoted:

God... causing the negative effects of the parents’ offenses to be experienced by their children and grandchildren, and even by the third and fourth generations...

great example of crimestop

Jo's picture
@ Nyarlathotep

@ Nyarlathotep

Yes, it is a warning to parents that you bad behavior will negatively affect your children. Just as their good behavior will have a positive affect on their children. In Jo's words - don't think you can be a bad person and it will not have a negative affect on your children.

Parents can affect their children in positive and negative ways seems like a true statement to me.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
"in jo's words"????...hmmmmm

"in jo's words"????...hmmmmm

'

Nyarlathotep's picture
@Jo

@Jo

It is really sad how willing you are to sabotage your own integrity, in a vain effort to salvage the credibility of self contradictory religious texts. I'm sure you don't see it that way; but it is painfully obvious to the rest of us. As I keep telling you; if I were you, I'd do some soul searching to figure out how you have gotten yourself into this mess. Or you could just keep contradicting yourself, the bible, and lying. I'll hope for the former, but expect the latter.

Jo's picture
@ Nyarlathotep

@ Nyarlathotep

You asked me recently about the Bible verse that says God created evil.
Sorry, I cannot find the post to respond it it there, so I am responding here.
Yes my poor writing skills are only surpassed by my poor blogging skills. :-)

You quoted Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

In Isaiah 14:13-14 Satan states five times that "I will".
It is a choice he is making to try and usurp God.

In Proverbs chapter 16 the subject being discussed is how all creation is accountable to God.
God did not create the wicked just so he could punish them.
He created all things to give an account unto Him.
Even those who think they are getting away with their sins now, are going to give an account to Him on the day of judgment.
For more details see http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/wicked_punishment_proverbs.php

Here is the verse in the NIVUK
"The LORD works out everything to its proper end –
even the wicked for a day of disaster."

Nyarlathotep's picture
Listen Jo; your mythology

Listen Jo; your mythology clearly, repeatedly, and explicitly depicts god as the source of evil. If you aren't willing to acknowledge that, then you are living in a fantasy world; which meshes well with what you have told us so far.

Tin-Man's picture
@Nyar Re: "Listen Jo; your

@Nyar Re: "Listen Jo; your mythology clearly, repeatedly, and explicitly depicts god as the source of evil..."

Well, like I said before, either they did not have a reading comprehension course where Jo went to school, or it was an elective course Jo decided to skip. However, it has become quite apparent Jo DID decide to invest in some top-of-the-line apologetic eyewear of the finest quality. All about priorities, I suppose.

Sheldon's picture
"The "punishing of the

"The "punishing of the children" is a warning to parents that their bad choices affect their children and future generations."

An odious enough sentiment, even before one contemplates this is diktat from an omniscient deity to its created pets. The whole idea is too repulsive, as is the concept of deity it implies.

"God, merciful and compassionate, slow to anger, rich in grace and truth;"

That created cancer, malaria, heart disease etc etc, even in children, yes very compassionate.

Calilasseia's picture
Oh good grief ... Jo has just

Oh good grief ... Jo has just admitted to be a member of an inerrantist sect. That explains a LOT. None of it in a good way.

I'll just remind everyone that a good place to start, in order to see what a shitfest inerrantism is, is to take a peek at the Michael Licona scandal ...

Jo's picture
@ Calilasseia

@ Calilasseia

I don't know much about Michael Licona, but from what I read he seems to be good. I think I prefer his views over the inerrantism. What do you think?

Calilasseia's picture
Oh, and there's a huge

Oh, and there's a huge difference, between noting that an individual's behaviour may have a malign effect upon others, and using that behaviour as a pretext for the imposition of wholly unwarranted collective punishment, including upon those not yet born.

rat spit's picture
Aww *wiping sleep from eyes*

Aww *wiping sleep from eyes* What time is it? Have I been sleeping for the last 16 hours? Jesus Christ Almighty.

What did I miss? Who’s this Ferguson fuck? What’s his beef? I’ll sort him out. What’s an inerrant?

Jo; do you have a “personal” relationship with Jesus Christ? Tell me the truth? Tell me where He touched you. It’s okay. Rat spit is here. I won’t tell a soul. hisssssss!!!!!!

Tin-Man's picture
@Rat Spit Re: "Who’s this

@Rat Spit Re: "Who’s this Ferguson fuck?"

Hey there, Buddy. Sadly, our dear Fergie is no longer with us. He has been vanquished into the netherworld of the great Internet for transgressions against common sense and rationality. Fret not, though! For the dearly departed Fergie was immediately replaced with our newest AR member known as Pistos. We should all be thankful to the glory of God that Pistos was sent into our midst to carry on the legacy of Fergie, for we are all in dire need of such a brilliant light to lead us back to the path of righteousness. Please take a moment to greet and welcome Brother Pistos in your graciously unique manner.

Re: "Jo; do you have a “personal” relationship with Jesus Christ?"

Truth be known, I am more inclined to believe that Jo had a personal relationship with his Apologetics instructor in a last-ditch effort to obtain his diploma. (Strictly speculation on my part, of course.) Besides, even if he DID have a "personal relationship" with Jesus Christ, what good would it do for him to tell the authorities? After all, there will obviously be no evidence left behind to be used for an investigation.

Calilasseia's picture
Meanwhile, it's time to break

Meanwhile, it's time to break out the dissection kit again ...

I do not have a mission.

Pull the other one, it's got fucking bells on. Let me remind you that YOU CAME HERE AND STARTED YOUR POSTING CAREER, BY LAUNCHING A THREAD BEARING THE TITLE "ATHEISM IS A FAITH", and within that thread, YOU POSTED A BLATANT PIECE OF PREACHING. "I do not have a mission" my fucking arse. Want to be reminded of that first post of yours? Here it is, reproduced verbatim ...

Hello friends,

I am 68, single, from Italy, "radical" Christian.
You ask for proof that God exists?
When the Pharisees asked Jesus to give a sign that He was the Son of God He refused. The sign was Him.
Prayers are not answered?
I doubt prayers from an atheist can be answered: you have to live the New Testament and become a disciple of Jesus and you will know different.
Atheism is just a faith like faith in the parallel universe.
The non-existence of God cannot be proved, and that's all there is to it.

In short, YOU CAME HERE WITH THE MANIFEST INTENT TO PEDDLE YOUR ASSERTIONS AS IF THEY CONSTITUTED FACT, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER SMUG, SELF-RIGHTEOUS PREACHING SUPERNATURALIST WHO COMES HERE.

Stop lying.

I am just trying to fathom out the "strange" way atheists think, reason, defend their atheism and attack religion.

BULLSHIT.

You came here to engage in ideological stormtrooping for whatever schizophrenic excrement is floating around in the television inside your head. You didn't come here to learn anything, as evidenced by your repeated sneering at science and its achievement, your repeated sneering at anything resembling academic diligence, and your repeated peddling of canards even AFTER they've been roundly destroyed.

Stop lying.

Indeed, the very phrase "attack religion" in your assertion above is itself a blatantly loaded piece of supernaturalist cant, intended to misrepresent proper critique of inconsistencies, absurdities and observably malign influence as some sort of "Inquisition" (ah, how supernaturalists love projecting their own failings upon us). Pointing out demonstrable fact isn't an "attack".

Stop lying.

Attacking religion and believers is like preaching to the choir.

Not when supernaturalists are part of the audience. Or did this elementary concept elude you?

There is so much that can be criticized.

Yet despite admitting this, you still persist in misrepresenting valid critique thereof?

Seems Matthew 7:5 is applicable once more ...

Attacking atheists means nothing to me.

BULLSHIT.

It's been your obsessively pursued modus operandi ever since you came here.

Stop lying.

I simply seem to understand that you put a banana in front of an atheist with glasses and he will say that's a parrot.

BULLSHIT.

This excremental and fatuous fabrication of yours is precisely that, and beneath deserving of a point of view.

Stop lying.

There is absolutely no "logic" in an atheist mind

Ahem, some of us have actually studied formal logic, in contrast to your repeated ravings against academic achievement.

Stop lying.

nothing you can get hold of in order to produce even a moderately reasonable set of thoughts.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

You can't even put together a coherent sentence, without wandering off into schizophrenic biographical tangents bearing zero relevance to whatever topic you purport to be "discussing". Your entire thread on Navabi's book is a trainwreck of non sequiturs, oxymorons and stream-of-consciousness rambling. As for your assertion that those of us who paid attention in class are purportedly, according to your asinine assertion above, unable to produce a reasonable set of thoughts, there are literally dozens of detailed, carefully constructed rebuttals of your drivel from the other posters here. In my own case, I can readily cite two examples destroying your duplicitous lie above, namely this demolition of your mendacious erection of the "genocidal dictators were atheists" well-poisoning, posted within your opening trainwreck thread, and in that same thread, this detailed exposition on scientific thinking on the origin of life which included no less than seventy citations from the peer reviewed literature, and which I included precisely because the contents of those papers back the statements I included in that post.

Stop lying.

An atheist mind is like tombola: any number can come out.

STOP LYING.

Quite simply, you are a lying sack of shit. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you have zero integrity. Your much-trumpeted flounce out of these forums in that trainwreck thread of yours, in which you asserted that you were going to post your "last post" here, turned out to be yet another of the MANY manifest and egregious lies you have posted here. You have become the poster child for everything that is verminous and pestilential in the world of supernaturalism. Far from being an advertisement for whatever passes for a collection of thoughts whirling around as a miasmatic hologram in your head, you have become possibly THE archetypal pedagogical example of why we treat supernaturalism as inherently malign. You exhibit in a florid, suppurating manner, all the most execrable features of the aetiology of supernaturalist duplicity in one concentrated package, to such an extent that many other supernaturalists might be forgiven for asking if you're secretly working for us as some sort of living caricature of their excesses.

Indeed, your much-trumpeted, and once again merely asserted, adherence to Catholicism, is itself seriously open to question, given that you have publicly posted here statements that, according to the doctrine of that religion, constitute heresies demanding excommunication. First, it should be a source of embarrassment to you that atheists have superior knowledge of your purported doctrine than you do, and second, it should be extremely troubling to you, that the statements you have posted here, would, in times past, have led to other Catholics rounding you up, torturing you and burning you at the stake. For that reason alone, you should be grateful to atheists and their pursuit of the Enlightenment, for sparing you that fate. Though your conduct here increasingly suggests that saving you from the flames has been utterly wasted upon you,

Sheldon's picture
@Calilasseia

@Calilasseia

Bravo again, though I suspect asking him to stop lying will be no more fruitful than asking theists to demonstrate objective evidence, Thankfully Cyber and Nyarl have finally had enough of his mendacious sermonising, and put a stop to his duplicitous ignorant woo woo.

cranky47's picture
2 cents

2 cents

I'm only just getting used to the probability nothingness. Not really sure I'm capable of grasping the concept. Closest I can come is a dreamless sleep.

A surviving awareness is a difficult concept too, as many thinkers have claimed there is no such thing as ego. What is it then that would survive.?

I think I'd get bored with an afterlife anything like our present reality (I recommend a few episodes of "The Good Place" on Netflix)

Using a theology I came up with, it would go like this:

Time and space came into existence when god created the Universe. All of that will cease to exist at some point. All that will remain is an ever present NOW.

There is a school which claims humans are made of god-stuff.IE pure spirit/awareness. That we are drawn to the godhead, or simply have an urge to merge.Having done that, what we experience is bliss unending, because time does not exist.

To bring it back a few notches; I recently came across a credible source which claims the notion of an eternal hell is christian invention, perfected over centuries. It does not exist in the New Testament nor in Judaism. (source; bishop John Shelby Spong)

So what would we have? A perfected human existence?

Mormons teach that after death the righteous effectively become Gods, each with his/her own planet.

An aside: I think Mormonism is one of the most amazing case of mass cognitive dissonance I've ever come across. The poor dupes who claim to believe all that nonsense have far too much invested, on several levels, to simply stop being Mormons. It would destroy their inner and outer worlds.

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