I'm an atheist and struggled with belief as a child because I was about six when my devout Roman-Catholic father said something that I realized he couldn't possibly know. It took years for me to understand the precise difference between assertions and fact, but I could identify the quality of somebody's statement by how they acquired the information at a very young age.
JoC posted a thread asking what would constitute proof of a jealous, all-powerful deity and I wanted to turn the tables and ask what would constitute proof that this being does not exist. I don't usually use the word "proof" though because that term is specifically for mathematics, I did, however, lead with it for purposes of similarity.
Mine asks a bit of a different question from the believers: What sort of evidence do you need to admit that you are wrong?
Now I'll just quickly go through the standard evidence that this being doesn't exist and then top that off with a webpage for people who HAVE admitted that they were wrong - and they should KNOW.
- Can't be seen
- Can't be heard
- Can't be touched
- Can't be communicated with
- Claims nothing
- Produces nothing
- Does nothing
You'll note that while JoC dreams up "proofs" that he thinks are absurd, I've actually posted evidence that is staring right back. You do have to come out of your dreamworld to see it though.
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@Kataclismic: What Would Constitute Proof That God is a Con?
The existence of:
The Catholic church
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
And personally I cannot think of anything as extraordinary as a claim that an invisible entity created and controls this universe.
And the proof? Nada, zero, zilch, nothing.
I don't think the claim that there is a god (an entity that created the universe) is that extraordinary.
Claiming the existence of any particular god, however, such as the Christian God, is an extraordinary claim.
I completely understand your intent but I have a problem with you have suggested as proof Kataclismic. These things :
"Can't be seen
Can't be heard
Can't be touched
Can't be communicated with
don't actually matter because it isn't incumbent to disprove a god. If you could actually find an honest christian and I dare say that may very well be impossible, they would accept any of those things as disproof. I would venture down the line of how have you really proved god to yourself and are you being honest about it? When you say god has spoken to you if you are honest, is that statement true? Things along that nature.
The thing is that when JoC posed his question he didn't have to worry about atheists being honest in truthful. He could rely on that fact. But we can't expect the same from christians. They live a lie. They fabricate things to fit the narrative of that lie. So it is evident that they will never be truthful about the lie that they live. If they ever do they would cease to be christian. Just look at the A typical proselytizing garbage they spew. "You need god for he is the light, the bounty, and eternal life." What part if any of that statement is even remotely true. they know it's a lie, we know it's a lie, yet they say it anyway. They can't even prove god to themselves. hence the constant reinforcement efforts to bolster their fragile faith. Preaching to the godless for instance!
Indeed myckob4, which is just the arrogance of convincing yourself that you're right even when you are demonstrably wrong. The theist is convinced that everyone lies to themselves.
1) The existence of evil
2) being defined as having properties that are immoral
3) the fact that it cannot be observed
If you could witness someone creating a religion, you could prove its human origin. Mormonism, Bahai, and Scientology are good examples. Evolved from pre-existing ideas or religion. Older religions have the benefit of their origins being cloaked by antiquity and the lack of historical evidence. Records from Mesopotamia provide evidence that the Abrahamic faiths evolved from older myths. There is no good reason to believe Christianity, Islam, Krishna Devotion, or Sikhism were created any differently than Mormonism.
It'd be a collection of facts for me.
1. No one has been able to demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity.
2. Demonstrably erroneous claims asserted as immutable divine truth.
3. Demonstrable immoral or evil acts claimed to have been committee by an allegedly perfectly moral deity.
4. The indisputable fact that humans create fictional deities.
Those would do for start.
You're coming at it from a position of non-belief. You can already identify the facts that lead to your conclusion.
I appreciate your contribution though, Sheldon.
Yeshua gave a simple test to prove that he was real and not one person has ever been able to do t in 2,000 years. So either Yeshua lied or no one in the history of humanity has ever believed in him. So in any event for all practical purposes that particular deity does not exist.
People love to mention "God". There are thousands of them, each one is different. But in most cases they are talking about the God of the Bible. His name is Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies. So even if that murdering beast did exist he would never be my God.
Personally I try not to create any Gods. They are all imaginary. But as a person it's easy to fall into the trap of elevating someone to godhood, whether it's a political leader or someone else. A god is simply someone you will obey because he tells you to do something, even if it's against your own moral code and sense of right and wrong.
There are no celestial deities of any kind in this solar system but there are countless gods, and they are all humans. If your favorite god told you to do something really evil you would do it without a second thought but it would be a human who told you to do it and and not an invisible celestial deity.
Psalm 82:6-7 (MEV) ="6 I have said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you,
7 but you all shall die like men, and fall like a man, O princes.”