....want to ask:
Where the hell are you from?
Why did you come here?
What is your purpose?
What do you hope to gain?
Are these people curious about atheist or what?
I think most of them just want to rant and seek atheist websites because they think that they are easy targets. I think that they are ALL individually insecure about their faith. That coming here they seek reaffirmation of their shaky faith. They don't want to get it from a real debate. They only are satisfied with with what THEY say. You can tell because they don't bother to even engage with any of us really. They won't answer the simplest question.
Oh. they start out seemingly honest enough. They start a thread, posting their question as if they really want to know what an atheist thinks. But when they get replies from atheist and it isn't the pat answer that they were seeking, they ignore it and start a rant, usually a hate rant.
How many times have we all seen threads started by theists that start out innocent, and end up just a bunch of unrelated quotes from the bible?
You can't reason with them, can't get them to answer any simple questions, can't even get a straight answer.
So each day when I check the Debate Forum and see a "christian" starting a thread, I say to myself, "here we go again!"
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Finally, we can actually have a.....nope, there's another one.......OK, NOW we can have a decent.......damnit, another one?
But, how are we supposed to be able to help them come to reason if they are not allowed here?
I hope you know you sound like a theist trying to convert people, Prag.
Be gone foul demon! :)
A good example of what I mean: The user pork222
It sounded at first as someone proselytizing.
There were some less then courteous responses. But luckily pork222, didn't give up and wrote some more posts. After a while we find that it's a 13 year old girl who has been in Catholic School, has started to question her faith and is looking for help to see clearly, because a friend was trying to push her back to faith.
Another good example: Abdul Rauf Bin Jamal
He came here, guns blazing;
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/islam-true-read-prove-...
It turned out that his aggressive behavior was because of insecurity, desperation, because he was having doubts. He then wrote new topic after topic, and after about 4 of them he was starting to change his tune:
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/please-help-me-here
He continued writing topics, about 10-15 more, asking for help to debunk different videos and arguments.
Eventually he just stopped. So we don't know what the end result was, but I definitively think he moved towards reason and from faith.
Being angry, aggressive, hostile, dismissive, serves very little purpose. It would not have helped in these examples.
Agreed.
I don't think pork222 fits under myk's criterion.
I think so. This gave the impression of a proselytizing Christian:
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/atheists-i-challenge-y...
Anyway, I'm just advocating constructive dialogue. A quick dismissive or angry answer can ruin that very fast. We have the Atheist Hub if we want "Atheist only" conversations.
You mean we have "Atheist Hub" if we want to have a topic almost no one will look at.
Sure, why do you think everyone looks at the Debate Room? It's supposed to allow others than just atheists come and debate. But honestly, I don't understand why there's not a little more traffic in the Atheist Hub.
I have noticed this as well, it's really the kind of place I would go to, but most of the action seems to be in the debate section. Maybe we can change that......
I'm a newcomer, so I don't know what's gone before. Some of the theists I've encountered have raised good points and made me think. The ones that start out pretending to debate and then switch to preaching and abuse are such morons that it's almost too easy to spin them around and shoot them down. And it's hunting season all year round. These fools, like "skeptikal christian" (the man with no shift key) are giving us opportunities to sow seeds of doubt in their minds. Maybe they'll go back to their hives and infect the others. I say, bring 'em on.
All right, since you used the words "shoot" and "down", I'll grab the Su-27k Ivinski gave me.
"Whenever christians come here, I.....
....want to ask:
Where the hell are you from?"
(1) From Abba G-d, (2) Da U (United).S (States of).A (America or Alderaan. Take ya pick!).
"Why did you come here?"
I was looking for a place that I could debate with atheists. To my surprise, it existed!
"What is your purpose?
What do you hope to gain?"
Well, just debating, hoping for converts, maybe making friends (chances of THAT plummeted), correcting false claims about Christianity, such as the "pagan origins" thing, or that Christianity is a "violent religion."
"hoping for converts"
Hahahahahh (deep breath) hhahahahahh
"is a "violent religion."
Verily, I say unto you: The actions of thine forefathers in the crusades shall be held against the words thou speakest today.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a person be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of G-d.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears the word, and believes on He that raised me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
I can do this Verily Verily thing to. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Christ never said (to my knowledge, and my knowledge comes from the bible) to kill anyone for Christianity.
[Edited to add]
[BTW, if I open a private tab, I can read the atheist hub. I just can't comment there.]
Hawk Flint,
Maybe you should start a thread that examines the similarities between the symbols and rituals of pagan religions and Christianity. It seems to me that there is scarcely a ritual or symbol in Christianity that lacks a parallel in the pagan world, and I'd be happy to back that up in such a thread.
Came here seeking converts? At the very least you should explain why established evidence should be ignored in favor of rank speculation. See my post: "Science Gives God The Bump!" 08/07/2016 18:47 which will warm you up to the subject.
Want to make friends? Don't discount your chances! (Go easy on the dogmatic preaching.) I have Christian friends, and even Muslim friends. Most atheists, as far as I can tell, do have Christian friends.
I said I was HOPING for converts. As in, it'd be a plus. I'll check out your post.
When I first came here I began to wonder what sort of arguments theists actually had so I went into a few theism groups to investigate. It turns out that when you go to a theological forum run by theists and you pose a reasonable argument they either delete it or kick you out of the group. This forum never does such things. No theist who ever comes to this group will have their arguments deleted because without them a theological forum is anything but.
So when a group pretends to open the doors for debate and then slams them shut in your face when you try to use them that is the very best evidence that it is a con. This forum does a wonderful job of proving that time and time again.
I didn't say ban them or keep them from coming here. I was just commenting how it is almost always the same. They come here with an agenda. The agenda is to reaffirm their shaky faith. Hawk Flint says he is looking for converts. Ha! How fucking arrogant. Do we as atheist even TRY to convert anyone....NO! Still, other christians claim that they come here to debate....HA! They just want to rant and hear themselves sound off.
Do they want to debate? No!
Do they want to reason? No!
Do they even bother to provide credible evidence? No!
Will they answer any direct questions? No!
Do they want to proselytize and nothing else? Yes!
I don't know what they hope to gain.
A little note to all you christians out there that come here.
An atheist has suffered much to come to the understanding that they have reached. They are usually (99.9%) so well versed in the bible theologians could learn something (a lot) from them. They didn't make the decision to go back to atheism lightly. (Everyone is born an atheist). And when they did commit to not believing in a myth, they almost certainly were outcast, ridiculed, shunned, and maybe even had their life threatened. So coming here for converts is totally useless. Take for granted that atheist know more about your religion then you do. They know more about science than you do. They know more about logic than you do. They know more about history than you do. They know more about everything than you do. That is a given.
So what is the point you christians think that you are making? Hmm? What do you hope to achieve? If it is knowledge, then yes you have come to the right place. If it is to inform, then you've come to the wrong place. I have yet to read anything new or informative by christians. I am 58, been around the world several times, have fought in combat, have a masters degree. I'm not too old to learn, but you have to know something before you teach or inform.
I come to this forum almost everyday, and I have read post made by 16 year olds that have more content than any christian post.
Thats my point, the purpose of this thread. Christians don't bring anything to the table. They regurgitate crap that someone has drummed into their heads.
@ mykcob4
I agree with you that some of the theists that come here are bigots (Gabriel for example, is just a huge waste of time). Still, some are not bigots. The examples I gave, show that it's impossible to know the difference from the start.
Your approach might be exactly what some people need to hear, minus the anger. A direct approach is honest and straightforward, and I have nothing against it. Just as long as anger and irritation is left out of it.
To use a made up example:
Telling them they are "full of shit" is counterproductive, not just in the case where it's actually a person with serious doubts, it also gives fuel to the "angry atheist" argumentation and propaganda.
The same message could be given in a way that does not radiate anger, spite or irritation.
EDIT:
That said, some of your snappy answers have been very accurate and made me laugh out loud.
@Mykcob,
"The agenda is to reaffirm their shaky faith."
You don't decide our agenda.
"Hawk Flint says he is looking for converts. Ha! How f****** arrogant."
Ha! I was HOPING for converts. As in, it'd be a plus. We'll talk about arrogance later.
"Do we as atheist even TRY to convert anyone....NO!"
Hmmmm. So, trying to make others end their religiousness (is that a word?) isn't trying to "convert" them?...??fyvkfysjhyshgyfihutueifhch
"They just want to rant and hear themselves sound off."
No, I don't. I came here to LEARN as well as what I said above.
"Do they want to debate? No!"
Seriously dude. I'm not even focusing on this site right now. And um....you don't get choose my agenda.
"Do they want to reason? No!"
How do you define reason?
"Do they even bother to provide credible evidence? No!"
Uh-huh. And you do? You believe (correct me if I'm wrong) in a THEORY. Evolution! Big bang! Evolution I can get, but a universe created from nothing? According to the law of thermophysics (or was it thermodynamics?) that's not possible!
"Will they answer any direct questions? No!"
Ask 'em. Oh, and just because we don't give answers satisfactory TO YOU doesn’t mean that we didn't answer it.
"Do they want to proselytize and nothing else? Yes!"
As if YOU determine that.
"An atheist has suffered much to come to the understanding that they have reached. They are usually (99.9%) so well versed in the bible theologians could learn something (a lot) from them."
Oh really, and you're willing to share it?
"They didn't make the decision to go back to atheism lightly. (Everyone is born an atheist). And when they did commit to not believing in a myth, they almost certainly were outcast, ridiculed, shunned, and maybe even had their life threatened."
Does that define all other Christians? I'm against people treating others that way for rejecting religion. I will not condone nor will I sit idly while it happens (if I saw it happen).
"Take for granted that atheist know more about your religion then you do."
Oh? Clarify, because I know alot.
●●●"They"[Atheists?]"know more about science than you do. They know more about history than you do. They know more about everything than you do."●●●
Here we come to arrogance. Here you are assuming of your superiority toward others. Don't believe me? Read the ●●● quote.
"So what is the point you christians think that you are making? Hmm? What do you hope to achieve? If it is knowledge, then yes you have come to the right place."
I love knowledge. If you share it I'll take it (more or less).
"I come to this forum almost everyday, and I have read post made by 16 year olds that have more content than any christian post."
I'm working on research right now. When I'm done I'll be starting a thread "with more content than any christian post." Or at least, I'll try.
"Uh-huh. And you do? You believe (correct me if I'm wrong) in a THEORY. "
Believe? I don't randomly throw my trust around. So no.
Also, your using Theory in the common sense, not the scientific sense of the word.
@Hawk Flint
Even though you have been one of the very few "agreeable" sorts that have joined the forum, my statements still ring true.
BTW Evolution and the Big Bang are no longer just theories, they are proven facts.
My statement about knowledge is also a fact and not arrogance. I have watched countless christians profess knowledge of their religion only to have their proverbial hat handed to them by atheist.
It is just a trait of atheism to explore in depth something before they automatically reject it. In fact, I don't know ANY atheist that just willy nilly rejected christianity.
As far as answering direct questions, you know what I said is completely true. How many people, on how many threads, asked Gabriel a direct question and he just ignored it. It's not that the answers are unsatisfactory, it's that they are nonexistent.
We don't don't try and make people end their religiousness. We question their religiousness. That is skepticism.
I assume you mean the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The 2nd law is a statistical law only. It can be easily violated when the number of particles is small or where gravity is really strong. Both of these conditions are characteristics of the modern versions of the big bang theory.
"Uh-huh. And you do? You believe (correct me if I'm wrong) in a THEORY. Evolution! Big bang! Evolution I can get, but a universe created from nothing? According to the law of thermophysics (or was it thermodynamics?) that's not possible!"
I wanted to elaborate on this. As of yet, we don't know if something can come from nothing. The law of thermodynamics you're referencing states that something doesn't come from nothing in EVERYDAY occurrence. You see back in old times, people believed in a theory known as spontaneous generation. This theory stated that things would appear in places they belonged. For example, if there was a field of tall grass, it was commonly believed that a cow could just randomly appear there. A scientist (Pasteur, I think) tested this theory by observing I think a bag of flour to see if maggots would spontaneously generate there. After a while he got bored and created the law of thermodynamics. So, no, there is no law stating that something CANT come from nothing.
They"[Atheists?]"know more about science than you do. They know more about history than you do. They know more about everything than you do."●●●
"Here we come to arrogance. Here you are assuming of your superiority toward others. Don't believe me? Read the ●●● quote."
I don't think it's arrogance to state a statistically proven fact. Atheists just so happen to be generally more educated than other religious people. Why do you think scientific fields are mostly atheist dominated? Is it arrogant to say that more black people are killed by other black people the cops in America? No, it is just a statistically proven fact.
(Apologies for the analogy where I used black on black crime. If I happened to offend anyone, it was not my intention to do so, I merely wished to prove a point.)
Hawk Flint,
What kind of research are you doing? Is this theological research or some area of science. (Both can be legitimate.)
"Uh-huh. And you do? You believe (correct me if I'm wrong) in a THEORY. Evolution! Big bang! Evolution I can get, but a universe created from nothing? According to the law of thermophysics (or was it thermodynamics?) that's not possible!" - Hawk Flint
I assume that Mykcob4 accepts the FACT of evolution, a fact in the sense that it would be perverse to pretend that it's iffy. The several explanations for that fact, chiefly natural selection, make up the the theories of evolution. In the scientific world "theory" refers to a general explanation that has been extensively supported by evidence, that is capable of serving as a framework for a large body of facts, an explanation that has proven fruitful for further research. One doesn't "believe" in a scientific finding as the word suggests that evidence is irrelevant. I.e., you "believe" in something where evidence is not compelling. One may accept or reject a finding of science on the basis of the evidence.
As for the Big Bang, you are probably referring to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It is a very complicated subject and the law should not be invoked lightly, especially in an esoteric area such as the origin of the Big Bang, especially by someone who doesn't understand that law. Big Bang science deals with what we can know, based on the laws of nature and on high energy collisions of particles, about what was happening AFTER the Big Bang occurred. We can trace a reasonable model to within a fraction of a second after the Big Bang. What might have occurred before is esoteric speculation constrained by the laws of physics. Talk about universes popping out of nothing cannot possibly be understood properly by someone lacking completely a background in particle physics. Your ruling the whole possibility out with the 2nd (1st ?) law of thermodynamics suggests that you got that line from some creationist site or book.
@Hawk Flint
Just to be clear. I am not deciding your agenda, I am just exposing it.
We do get a lot of low grade morons who assume their theological baggage is the center of all truth, who quote the Bible at us, people who have no concept of what an intelligent debate requires. They bring their silly "proofs" against atheism, being blissfully ignorant of the fact that a simple search on the Internet would supply the standard rebuttals. Indeed, the idea of doing research is wholly alien to these morons. Their posts are such a scatterbrained, muddy affair, a wreck that goes far beyond language limitations. They have no concept of objective reasoning, meaning that anyone who "debates" them must spend oodles of time trying to establish the basic framework in which reason can be applied!
These morons have their peculiar fixations which may not be challenged. Evidence and argument count for nothing. In particular, scientific evidence means nothing to these morons because they know nothing of science. That means we have to educate them on the basics, another pain-in-the-butt in that they will resist this attempt to educate with every fiber of their being! They drift here and there as it suits them, often getting wholly off-topic! It's a job just to keep the discussion properly focused!
When these morons (upon encountering serious rebuttals) refuse to answer basic questions, when they simply recycle stuff over and over without any sign of recognizing the rebuttals by forum members, then we should just IGNORE THEM. Depart the thread and let those idiots babble onto themselves. (That is, if you are not in it for the sport!)
You're right on, they only believe the Non-Testament because the Church told them so, and their entire belief system is based on blind faith, in Karaite Judaism we don't believe in blind faith. Let me demonstrate:
Christian Non-testament:
John 30:31:
"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
The Tanakh:
Psalm 46:10:
"He says, “Be still, and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth.”
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