Where are the arguments for god?

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cranky47's picture
Really.

@Segev Moran:

"You cant find evidence for God as your definition of God is probably wrong :)
The Jewish depiction of God is much different than what Christianity and Islam made of God :)"

Really.

(1) Argument from ignorance, a basic logical fallacy.

(2) My observation is that god cannot be argued into or out of existence . Logic is not a reliable tool for discovering truths.

(3) Have you ever heard of the phrase "Abrahamic Religions" ? It's an accepted shorthand for: Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Bahia.

. The reasons for the shorthand is that each of these religions worship the god of Abraham . IE They each worship the same god , with the same ascribed characteristics: .
.

"Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and the Bahai Faith are called Abrahamic religions because they all accept the tradition of the God (known as Yahweh in Hebrew and Allah in Arabic) that revealed himself to Abraham. The theological traditions of all Abrahamic religions are thus to some extent influenced by the depiction of the God of Israel in the Hebrew Bible, and story of Abram, the idol craftsman and worshipper, who had a revelation of God being God alone, and idols are not God. He is acclaimed as the Father of monotheism in the history of Judaism. In the Biblical narrative, he changed his name to Abraham once accepting his new life as a man believing only in One God, and this God being One.

The Abrahamic God in this sense is the conception of God that remains a common attribute of all three traditions. God is conceived of as eternal, omnipotent, omniscient and as the creator of the universe. God is further held to have the properties of holiness, justice, omni-benevolence and omnipresence. Proponents of Abrahamic faiths believe that God is also transcendent, meaning that he is outside space and outside time and therefore not subject to anything within his creation, but at the same time a personal God, involved, listening to prayer and reacting to the actions of his creatures. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Abrahamic_religions

I have no problems with your personal superstitions .However, if you want me to share your beliefs, you need to begin by providing evidence, not just claims for the existence of your god

Cognostic's picture
Please give us the right

Please give us the right definition of god so we can find the evidence. "HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ...LET ME GUESS" God is that being for which no possible evidence exists. Then your god is useless.

Cognostic's picture
@Segev Moran: I notice that

@Segev Moran: I notice that you provided NO EVIDENCE WHAT SO EVER in your previous statement. Is that evidence forthcoming or are you just talking our your ass? "If you can't find evidence for your god, you are probably WRONG!"

Simon Moon's picture
have always put it succinctly

have always put it succinctly, I was an atheist my reason for choosing a different worldview is simply because by mere reasoning it is obvious that the universe is not eternal. It is a consensus with the science community that the universe has a beginning. I choose to worship whatever caused the beginning of the universe

You must mean 'faulty reasoning'.

True, our local presentation of the universe had an event that began its expansion. But how did you determine whatever caused the expansion is "being"? How did you determine the universe did not always exist in some other form, 'before' it expanded into its present state?

And, why don't the vast majority of cosmologists and physicists agree with you? After all, they've dedicated their life to years of school, and work in the related fields of science. What evidence do you have that they don't?

Secondly atheism leads to nihilism short and simple. Nothing means anything, the best atheism can come up with is positive nihilism.

Completely false.

I've been an atheist for several decades, and have never been close to becoming a nihilist. Just because I do not believe I get meaning from an imaginary god, does not mean I do not have meaning.

Christianity gave meaning to my life and I am sure that no argument for God will sway you either . Its hard to go down that route and engaging you guys in a conversation especially when your comments are laced with insults and sarcasm.

I am completely willing to believe that a god exists. All that it would take to convince me is: demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, and valid and sound logic to support the claim.

Got any?

I don't care what gives your life meaning, I care about what is true. And for 1000's of years, theists have never been able to demonstrate their gods exist.

And no, your version of the cosmological argument is loaded with fallacies and flawed logic, so it is far from convincing.

Fievel Mousekewitz's picture
There's tons of arguments of

There's tons of arguments of God, but there's no scientific evidence a god exists. There's just no actual scientific evidence either way. Sometimes I wish there was, but really if there's nothing after death, that's fine too.

Calilasseia's picture
The problem here is that the

The problem here is that the moment the word "god" is mentioned, nobody bothers looking past the fatuous caricature candidates for the role in pre-scientific mythologies. There'll never be scientific evidence for any of those, because they're a pathetic joke.

If anyone genuinely wants to be serious about looking for a god type entity, the first task they should perform, is to ditch mythology, because mythology is incompetent at answering even simple questions, let alone the hard ones.

cranky47's picture
@Cal

@Cal

Just so. I'm especially fond of (1) the talking Gods (in Egypt, I think) statues of the god were hollow, with a door in the back .,A priest got inside, and the god would talk to people (2) Hiro of Alexandria (first century ce) made wonderful mechanical inventions. One was to open huge temple doors. Believers though it was the god.

It is my observation that a great many believers of the Abrahamic faiths are no less gullible today. Won't even start on any of the other 30,000 odd religions---- l'll just observe that that imo being gullible is a mark of ignorance , naivete, and perhaps cognitive dissonance , not necessarily a sign of stupidity.

One doesn't need to be stupid to be a believer, although it seems to be a significant advantage,

Fievel Mousekewitz's picture
@Calilasseia

@Calilasseia

I guess the hard question for them is proving a god exists. I don't no longer understand where Christians are coming from. There's just no proof a god exists.

My two cents.

Otangelo Grasso's picture
Being cannot come from non

Being cannot come from non-being.
Since we exist, then being has always been in one form or another.
Since the universe had a beginning, a non-physical being must have existed beyond the universe, causing the universe into existence.
That being is God.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
Being cannot come from non

Being cannot come from non-being.

Your evidence please? And wht the blue fuck is the definition of "non being"?

Since we exist, then being has always been in one form or another.

False conclusion, and a non sequitur. No evidence, just an assertion.

Since the universe had a beginning, a non-physical being must have existed beyond the universe, causing the universe into existence.

Nowhere have you evidence for this statement, you can't jump from "being" to "beginning" and where the fuck is "beyond the universe? Have you evidence of "beyond the universe?"

That being is God.

Another non sequitur, and a false assertion with no weight at all. Which god?

In other words a badly worded attempt at the Kalam argument. Kerist it gets boring.

Go back to your playpen and re read 'Spot does Philosophy' will ya? Oh, here, have a cookie. Get mammy to change your nappies while you are at it, it might free up your thought processes. .

Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man Re: To Otangelo -

@Old Man Re: To Otangelo - "Oh, here, have a cookie."

Dammit! Why the fuck does everybody keep giving away MY cookies?!? Oh, and I'm blaming YOU if his soiled nappy ends up in the breakroom floor.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Tin Man

@ Tin Man

Your cookies? YOUR cookies? When did you last put in to the amenities fund? Eh? EH?. I baked those cookies from scratch, even decorating them with the little chocolate pellets somebody left lying all over the kitchen bench.
Oh and on a separate note who is keeping wallabies now? Is it Cog? He should keep them in his room, not allow them to wander all over. We had enough problems with those Coypu last year....mind they did BBQ real well....

Fievel Mousekewitz's picture
@Otangelo Grasso

@Otangelo Grasso
And exactly which God are you referring to?

There's many.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

Can you see the problem yet? If God was real, it would have come and let us know. There's no god which can be proved at all. None, it is possible one just ceases to exist, which is fine by me.

Cognostic's picture
@Old Man: "Huh!"

@Old Man: "Huh!" *looking up and peaking out the bathroom door.* "Cookies? .... OH! YEA! SORRY! I got them right here! I was .... um........ umm....... I was......... um,..... ummmm........ going to eat one. Yea, that's it. I just wanted one. .... Um.... I will bring the trey down to you in a minute. *Bathroom door slams shut.*

Cognostic's picture
@Wallabies? Wallabies? Oh

@Wallabies? Wallabies? Oh shit! The wallabies! I haven't thought of them for months. Last time I saw them, they were all locked in that little cubbyhole under the stairs. ...... Now where did I put that key?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Cog

@ Cog

Don't worry they picked the lock with those cute little hands they have....PLUS they are the source of those little brown 'chocolate' pellets I put in the cookies...so, enjoy!.

Oh, their tails are good eatin *fires up BBQ,* now, where did I put that emu breast? ....

Cognostic's picture
@Old Man!: Whew! I am so

@Old Man!: Whew! I am so glad I don't have to worry about them any more. Here, have a cookie! "Wait a minute!" It's not wallabies, its wombats! Oh well, wallabies and wombats are practically the same thing. Have a cookie!

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Sheldon's picture
I fear I have missed

I fear I have missed something here? Cookies and wallabies, this doesn't seem a natural progression from a request for arguments for a deity?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Sheldon

@ Sheldon

Kalam to cookies and Wa;;abies (even wombats and bananas) is a perfectly logical progression.

Certainly makes more sense than a variation on Kalam....wanna cookie Sheldon? Its got sprinkles!

Sheldon's picture
.wanna cookie Sheldon? Its

.wanna cookie Sheldon? Its got sprinkles!"

Well, I do like sprinkles?

cranky47's picture
Sprinkles. Think of Homer

Sprinkles. Think of Homer Simpson and donuts.

When I was growing up, they were called 'hundreds and thousands' and sprinkled on bread with real butter for kids' birthday parties. We had that plus homemade sausage rolls with tomato sauce(ketchup ) and of course cake. To drink, raspberry flavoured cordial.(concentrated syrup mixed with water)

There was usually a bit of vomiting ,after which one would go back inside and eat more.

Below a recipe for very fancy sausage rolls. Traditional sausage rolls use home made pastry made from dripping(lard) and store bought sausage meat. AND NOTHING ELSE. Today you can't buy sausage meat here. You need to buy about a kg of the cheapest barbeque sausages and remove the skin.

https://www.recipetineats.com/special-pork-fennel-sausage-rolls/

Cognostic's picture
@Sheldon: Everything that

@Sheldon: Everything that exists has a cause, Cookies are made from flour, flour comes from wheat, wallabies eat wheat, and them poop. The banana trees grow in the poop and the wombats live under the banana trees where they shit little brown square turds. Little square turds are one of the mysteries of God's creation and just go to prove that God can do anything. Does that help clear things up?

Nyarlathotep's picture
It's t̶u̶r̶t̶l̶e̶s̶ poop all

It's t̶u̶r̶t̶l̶e̶s̶ poop all the way down!

Calilasseia's picture
Oddly enough, some time ago,

Oddly enough, some time ago, I was at Liverpool Musseum and handled a specimen of fossilised turtle dung, dating from the Jurassic.

Cognostic's picture
@Nyarlathotep: That seems

@Nyarlathotep: That seems to sum it up nicely!

Sheldon's picture
Well cookies are well and

Well cookies are well and good, but I've just had a slice of walnut cake.

Which I think proves that no deity exists, since no *real* deity would let me enjoy anything so flagrantly sumptuous whilst chortling at those who believe it exists.

QED

Cognostic's picture
@Sheldon: Oh for fuck sake,

@Sheldon: Oh for fuck sake, not the walnut cake fallacy again! It's a fallacious analogy. Walnut cake is evil. It has excessive calories that make you fat, sugars that rot your teeth and send you into a mental state of sugar bliss. Look at the idiots on the street that eat walnut cakes. Walking around with their eyes glassed over and stupid grins on their faces as they stop people on the street to ask them to try a piece of their walnut cake. "Hey bud! Come here! You want to enjoy a flagrantly sumptuous slice of walnut cake?" Damn evangelists!

Tin-Man's picture
@Cog

@Cog

Aw, shit! Sheldon is one of those "Walnut Cakers"?... *hanging head in disappointment*... *heavy sigh*... Damn... I thought Shelly was more respectable than that. How could he possibly NOT KNOW that Pecan Pies are the only TRUE flagrantly sumptuous bakery items?... *pleading voice*... Sheldon, for Pastry's sake! Please don't allow yourself to be mislead down that blasphemous walnut cake road! Have some dignity, man!

cranky47's picture
@ Tin-man

@ Tin-man

Fascinating to watch a thread become 'silly'/'fun' when it has either run its course or people can no longer be bothered with the OP. ---especially when the Op is a person such as Jo. IE: wilfully ignorant and either mendacious or actually stupid. It think it might be a combination.

I got bored with Jo long before he pulled "you can't prove god doesn't exist" idiocy. As I said ignorant, mendacious or stupid. Anyway, can't be bothered.

If he's ignored he will go away.

Cognostic's picture
@cranky47: Have you ever

@cranky47: Have you ever noticed, a woman can have a boob job and fix her looks, a guy can get a nose job and fix his looks, everyone can get liposuction and be more attractive in a month or two. We can cover our ugliness with fancy clothes or disguise our low self esteem buy getting rich and flaunting our cash. These are all easy fixes to make life more bearable for those feeling inferior. But there is no quick fix for stupid.

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