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By claiming that your answer comes from either God or Satan (I assume that is what you mean by the tempter); it seems you have set up a tautology, where god must exist (presumably is Satan exists, god must also). This seems to contradict what you said earlier:
@cranky47
@Nyarlathotep
@Cognostic
@David Killens
hi everyone
I don't claim that either mohamed, moses, satan or any of those groupes exist, i believe they exist i don't have proof that they exist
I just refrenced them from quran, you can take them as a part of an imaginary storie, what is important is
the story and the meaning.
If you read the quran and found out that it is none sens, I agree i didn't either when i was yunger even though i'm an arabic
native speaker, it's because of three things first and most important one is the story behind a verse,
if you don't know the storie that quran is talking about then the verse means what ever you want it to mean
in your head, all the storie can be found in the internet, the second thing is context, if quran said that some
one will go to hell, you have to put that in the context of the story for example this verse https://quran.com/2/191-201
quran says kill the none believers when ever you see them, this is so violente if you put it out of the context,
or if you hate quran but in fact this is the storie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_in_the_Quran
(go down to sword verses) and the third thing is stick what quran says and know the exast meaning of each word, don't force
words to mean something in your head, for example the unbelievers in this verse are those who have seen the miracles and they didn't
want to believe and also break the truce with the blievers by attaking them from behinde, you guys have not seen a miracle, have you ?
neither object to believe you had ? if you stand before god for example you will have an execuse, and if he saw that you were honest, he
will put you in heaven probably, that's not just my opinion, i have heard that from people that have great degrease of education for example
Ibn Taymiyya that is a great mind respected by every single muslim https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Taymiyya and i have read it in quran.
i mean by this "this is my answer, if it's right it's from god otherwise it's from me and the tempter."
that if i'm right then it's god who helped me otherwise it's my fault and the tempter who wispers in my head as quran says.
quran says that the tempter wispers bad thoughts to people, so sinse i believe in god i believe all what it says
*edited
@ Nogba
I was raised a christian, left organized religion when I was approximately 20 years old, then spent the next forty plus years searching for anything spiritual. I wanted to have a god to believe in. In my childhood I learned all the christian stories, including the ones about guidance and how to live your life "properly".
Despite the fact I am now an atheist, I still embrace and follow some teachings, such as loving others and forgiving. But in my opinion, many of those teachings are not divine inspiration and guidance, but just common sense and the proper application of morals. Those life lessons on how to be a positive light in the community and choosing the proper decision can be taught in secular methods.
Unfortunately, I respectfully disagree on "taking it in context". When one does that, they can derive any answer they choose from a passage. That is why there are thousands of different christian sects, all derived from the same book. I often refer to the bible as the greatest multiple choice book of all time. I do not pretend to possess a legitimate knowledge of your faith, but I am aware that you also have different interpretations and sects.
All of this does not make sense. A supreme creator, possessing near infinite knowledge and desiring to pass along instructions and lessons to it's creations should make an instruction book that is more understandable and rational, and devoid of requiring interpretation and "context".
My various professions all involved work that could cause death if improperly applied, and thus I possessed many manuals and written guidance instructions to follow. None of them were open to interpretation, you took the guidance literally, there was no confusion or misunderstanding, everyone who read the instruction books all came to the same conclusions.
And this is the paradox that makes me seriously question the existence of any god. If a god was that intelligent, was gentle and loving to it's creations, it would pass along it's message into a book that could NOT be interpreted to allow cruelty and violence.
Unless that god was capricious, cruel, and psychopathic.
@David Killens
quran says that christ teaching was for the people with a simpler mind and circumstances before mohamed
each messager has been sent to only his people and his message is valide only for them the last messager is quran according
to it.
It might be common sense for you but if you see what is happening in the world apparently it's not, even though, there is teachings
that are not common sense in quran, and not every teaching is an obligation for muslims to do, the obligation are few and every thing
else are just advices that make your consciousness grow stc..
and speaking of consciousness people reflect there level of education and consciousness on what they read, more you're educated
more you understand editional things, in quran and probably this is one of the things that make quran not conprehensive by every body, cause you have to reworde those who have suffered to educate them selves.
but anyway if you followed what i said about searching for the story behind every verse, i think you will understand the meaning perfectly
editionly i want to say that we speak language, and language is limited, so god have to use this language so we can understand,
the basic important things are clear in quran if you use the methode i have said and every thing that seems complicated depand on you and if you don't understand them you don't to worry, god does injustice to no one as has he said in quran https://quran.com/18/49-59
this might be affensive, apologies in advance but
if god is cruel we would have been in hell right now. why would he bring us here ? and no one would have the power to do anything
cause he created power in the first place, we could die and go hell right this seconde and shuts our mouths so we can say nothing cause
when i move my mouth it's not me who does it actualy, it is god who moves my mouth and all our mouths, but we choose what we say.
that what a cruel god would do in my opinion.
@ Nogba
Thank you for the reply, but I still maintain my position. No instruction book should be difficult or require different levels of interpretation. I explained why, and to be frankly honest, your response was "it is mysterious, only those trained in the ways of mystery can fully grasp the messages". You are surrounding a mystery with another mystery. That is not the path to truth. Finding truth is ripping away the covers and eliminating mysteries and other impediments that only cloud the issue.
@David Killens
You welcome, as i said the necessary things are clear but those hard ones depandes on your knowledge, they are mysterious just for the ignorante i think. if you studie physics you don't start with relativity. you to know the basics first, the relativity is mysterious if you are beginner.
I want to add this if you want :
even mohamed didn't have certainty, here is the verse that says so https://quran.com/15/99
"And worship your Lord until there comes to you the certainty (death)."
death is the certainty, when you seen things for your self.
@ Nogba
One does not require a PhD and be hyper-intelligent to comprehend complex subjects.
Einstein has one famous quote:
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
Even I could explain the Theory of Relativity to a ten year old child in ten minutes.
And the bottom line is that the authors of your holy book, be it divinely inspired or not, failed to put out what should be a simple message without resorting to complex language and incomprehensible messages.
Even if I accepted your post, your holy book is built on the framework where the ordinary person requires someone else to interpret that book. That is exactly why the Roman catholic church stuck to Latin for hundreds of years, to keep the masses ignorant to maintain power and control.
Just want to add to the thread.
To me the quran, bible, etc They read exactly like 1-2 thousand year old heavily edited translated books that plagiarized from religions before them.
Old testament reads like the thoughts and concerns people would have ~2000 years ago. And new testament the editing of the old testament written 200-300 years later. Be a scholar and read the other writing available of the time and they read like other books the culture that wrote them. Limited by (obviously the tech) but also the knowledge available to the writers/editors of their time.
Same for the Quran.
I see nothing out of the ordinary, and certainly nothing special written. And just like any other broad idea that is used all over the world and not surprisingly 1001 different variations of the original show up.
The evidence of bible or quran or other holy text religious apologist hold up, to me is evidence that it is all written by humans. Just like as mentioned earlier, prayer is evidence of no god, not that there is a god, (or at the very least studying prayer shows that prayer by it self does nothing but maybe make the person actively praying feel a bit better while they say the prayer.
@ Nogba
"you guys have not seen a miracle, have you ?"
No, I have not. Neither do I believe in "miracles".
Nogba, have you witnessed any miracles, or know of any? If your response is positive, please provide your best example. You raised the topic of miracles, let us examine this topic.
@David Killens
Ok, I didn't witnesse any miracle but I do believe in miracles but not those that comes with prophets.
those won't happen again in my opinion. god says that quran is the last miracle that has secrets and that's probably
one of the reasons why there is some compicated verses in quran.
Basicaly from what i understand from quran god sent prophets for one reason that is some corruption has been done,
and god tried to ask people to stop the corruption and guided them and at the same time prooved to them that there is a creator waching them
and miracles was necessary at the time because the people back then were extreamly ignorant so there is no way
you could convince them with a book, they didn't know how to read or write or even understand logic but when people start to accumulate
enought knowledge god sent the last messanger with a book so that's why he called the book a miracle, now we have knowledge so
there is no need for miracles.
In this age miracles in my opinion will happend when you do this:
if you read in quran a verse that gives a promise that you will have this
if you do this, and you make SURE to do it, then the promise has to be given
to you, otherwise it means that quran is lying and it is all not from any real god.
I have heard an unbeliever who was a doctor who had a daughter with cancer, and she was dying, there was no way that she could survive,
but the father tried asking god desperately and said "i don't know if you exist and, i know that i have not been looking
but if you save my daughter, i promise with all my heart that i will do everything to find you"
and after that, he went to his daughter, and found her completely well like nothing has happened to her
this is just one of the stories that have heard i don't know if it is true, but the one told it to me said
that is true.
@ Nogba
Even if I accepted that prayer may be viable, there are thousands of prayers and miracles that do not happen when you compare them to supposed responses from your god.
One child restored, yet thousands die, while surrounded by praying family members?
I suggest you count the misses as well as the hits.
@Nogba
Does it ever seem a tad unfair of your god idea to show evidence and have prophets etc ~1500 years ago, but not anywhere near your life time? Why did your god idea reveal and give "evidence" of his existence back then and not now, when there is 2 billion+ people caring cameras in their pockets at all times? (smart phones.)
Also while we are at it, why is your god a "he?" Why not she, (would make more sense then males, if god was a god and not a figment of imagination from a male dominated culture.) Or to make even more sense, a non sexual being because your god idea is suppose to be some sort of deity not some very fallible human.
Any belief is the affirmation of a claim, but that error in reasoning aside, you're stating plainly that your belief is meaningless vapid rhetoric, I'm not sure what you expect a forum of atheists to make of this declaration?
@Sheldon
hi Sheldon
Sorry this will be the last comment for me in this subject.
Sheldon you're right, some times when you fail to see things from outside you make that mistake i think, but at the same time i'm tying to explain
something like believe by words, its kind of hard, it's like explaining love, you find your self saying things your the only one who understand.
at the end if you believe in some one it means that you have lived with him for a while, god is not diffrent, read quran that's all.
and ask your self this, do you need proof to believe in your kids or friend ? you believe in someone because you have love relationship
with the person, or a reason that you have felt in him.if you want to know god read the quran.
@ Nogba
"if you want to know god read the quran."
I hope you understand that I do not place any significance on your holy book. To me it is just a collection of texts from nomads who lived approximately 1400 years ago. I would read it just like I read any other book, be it "Stranger in a Strange land" or "The Old Man and the Sea".
One other hurdle is that I encounter different "missionaries", and one of the first things they ask is "have you read the bible"? Their approach is EXACTLY like yours, that if I read this holy book, I will become convinced. Same sales pitch, just different product.
And that leads me to my third point ... have you read the christian bible, or the Bhagavad Gita, or the Samayasāra?
@David Killens
"Samayasāra?"
Buddhist?
Haven't read it, although I have read a bit about Buddhism
Have read the bible. We were actively discouraged from reading the bible at my Catholic a school "'lest we become confused" . So naturally, I read the whole thing at age 16.
Also read chunks of the Book Of Mormon, which I found no more fatuous than the Bible.
Have read the Q'uran and studied about aspects of Islam at university.
Have read the Bhagavad Gita and bits of the rest of the Mahabharata, plus bits of the Rig Veda and Upanishads.
Have not yet read the Guru Granth Sahib.
I'm afraid our new little friend is just another stereotypical, tedious apologist who has not grasped the basics of reasoned discourse. Can't be bothered with him .Simply don't believe he is seeking anything other than the reinforcement of his personal superstitions.
It is the same old pitch cranky47, no matter what faith they have covered themselves with. Be it christian, mormons, JW, or Islam, "I have faith, and if you read our holy book you will have faith too".
Geez, a tipping point in my journey to atheism was reading the bible.
I guess that if you are gullible, devoid of critical thinking, and are willing to invest in a religion before truly checking it out, you are prey for this tactic.
@Nogba
What mistake? You stated clearly that you were not claiming that either mohamed, moses, satan or any of those groupes (sic) exist, but that you believe they exist?
This is a manifest contradiction in language and reasoning. If you believe a claim is true, you are affirming that claim to be true.
Which can only infer the belief is not based on anything cogent or rational.
The koran cannot validate a belief in a deity, if you think it contains objective evidence then demonstrate this, if it does not then it can no more validate a city's existence than the Harry Potter franchise can validate wizardry.
In what sense? Believe they exist you mean? Or believe what they say. I have objective evidence they exist, and weigh what they say against the claim and the context of it. The larger the unlikelihood of the claim, the more objective evidence it demands, you are making the largest possible claim, and offering no objective evidence, rhetoric about feelings, or vague entreaties to read a book repeating such claims are meaningless to any rational discourse. It is manifestly impossible for a book to validate itself.
I disagree, and I'm going through a messy divorce, which is objective proof that loving someone doesn't validate what they claim. In fact I think such emotions are an obvious exuberance to objectivity. Only objective evidence can properly validate claims, trusting someone you love is a very bad analogy.
That's more rhetoric I'm afraid. If you can demonstrate no objective evidence for any deity then why is the koran any more relevant than any other religious claims? This is a well worn spiel theists use, and it is I'm afraid naught but evasion, to try and pretend personal subjective feelings can replace objective evidence for the existence of a deity.
If you accept claims uncritical then you an believe literally anything. Sadly such behaviour teaches us absolutely nothing about the validity of the belief. Had you been born to christian parents you'd now be just as sincerely urging me to read the bible for "evidence" of a deity.
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The religious idiots have no response other than their Bible says that God exists
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