Where are the arguments for god?

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Tin-Man's picture
@Tommy Re: "Everything is

@Tommy Re: "Everything is not meant for everyone."

Howdy. So, I'm guessing you may have meant that particular post for the Ybe guy. If I may make a suggestion, it keeps things less confusing if you specify who you are addressing by using the method I have used at the top of this post. The way the threads get mixed up sometimes, it can be very easy to confuse who a reply is meant for unless it is specified. Matter of fact, you can even go back in and edit your post to make that specification. Again, just a helpful suggestion. Oh, and welcome to the AR.

Tin-Man's picture


Okay, with my suggestion post out of the way, please allow me to address a couple of things real quick.

Re: "People, who understand God, do not need any proof."

For starters, to which god are you referring? There are only a few thousand from which to choose, and some are more understandable than others. For the sake of expedience, though, I will guess you are referring to the god of the Christian bible? If that is indeed the case, then it begs a very big question. Namely, how do you propose to understand a god that claims it cannot be understood by its human pets? Inquiring minds want to know. Next...

Re: "If you need proof then, obviously, you are not meant to know God."

Hmmm.... Did you actually read what you wrote there? Moreover, does that honestly make rational sense to you? Just asking. Because if that DOES actually make sense to you, then I have a proposition for you that I have learned from our ol' pal Logic who is one of our regular AR members. Basically, I say you owe me one million dollars. I expect you to send a certified cashier's check for that sum in full within the next five business days.... *tapping chin with index finger*... Oh, okay, I'll be nice for the holidays. You can split the amount into four equal monthly payments. That should be more than fair. And please don't bother asking me for any proof of your debt. After all, it is obvious you don't require proof to believe other outlandish claims, so why should I be forced to provide proof of your owing me the money? Just take my word for it that you owe me, and then please put the check in the mail. I'll be happy to PM my address when you are ready.

Tin-Man's picture


Holidays have kept me busy the past few days, so I'm just now getting a chance to jump in here. Mainly just want to hit a couple of high points real quick.

1. The writer of the OP was a sock puppet troll who eventually got banned along with a couple of other related trolls.

2. Even if the OP writer wasn't a troll, how/why would you expect any of the rest of us to know the personal thoughts of the writer???

3. As others have already said, if you are so terribly concerned about big "G" or little "g" or any of the other upper/lower case letters you've been tossing about in such odd fashion, then stop stalling and tell us the definition/attributes of YOUR particular god. Then we can all have a discussion about THAT. (I would suggest starting a new thread, though.)

4. Personal opinion here, but it would not surprise me at all if you actually know the mind of the OP writer much better than any of us possibly could... *eyebrow raise*...

Y.be_'s picture
Decided since this thread is

Decided since this thread is supposed to be fake, decided not to participate further here,

Tin-Man's picture
@Ybe Re: Exit strategy

@Ybe Re: Exit strategy


Awwww... Diddums gettums himself into the deep end withoutums arm floaties? Poor wiittle tang... Tsk-tsk-tsk....

Sheldon's picture
Ybe "decided not to

Ybe "decided not to participate further here,"

Further? You have offered nothing of any substance at all. Not a shred of evidence to support your belief, or any credible or compelling reason or argument.

Quelled surprise, another theist who can't offer anything in support of their beliefs but grandiose claims that have yet again come to naught.

Couldn't even define the deity you believe in, let alone demonstrate any objective evidence for it.

Calilasseia's picture
The irony being, of course,

The irony being, of course, that many here have already asked the question of how does one define a god-type entity, and tried to press the usual suspects among the supernaturalists to provide an answer containing some substance, instead of the usual regurgitation of mythological assertions and fatuous ex recto apologetic fabrications. I have, of course, become familiar to to the point of contempt, with the indolence and vacuity supernaturalists bring to even simple questions, let alone the hard ones.

Indeed, anyone who exerted the effort to read this earlier contribution of mine on the subject, is well placed to know that the question is a lot harder than many complacent supernaturalists presuppose. Those whose smug complacency prevents them from thinking of anything other than a mythological candidate, in the light of that earlier exposition of mine, need not of course be taken seriously.

Admittedly, a better search feature on this forum (whose mechanics are frankly woeful at times - not even a post preview function worthy of the mention is provided, let alone a decent search feature), would leave fewer excuses for the usual suspects, but even in other environments where such facilities are provided, and work efficiently, I've observed the requisite supernaturalist combination of indolence and complacency in action, where even an elementary search for keywords against a user's name informs the rest of us whether or not said user has been contributing on the topic in any abundance.

My own output is spread across four different forums apart from this one (one now defunct, another in archive form), and spans more than a decade, so it's safe to assume on the basis of this data, that I've been applying my neurons to the matter in a reasonably diligent manner, given that said output includes expositions of something like 200 peer reviewed scientific papers and their contents, as well as an examination of numerous well-known supernaturalist canards and the destruction thereof. It isn't difficult for the diligent to check this, and verify independently that my reportage on this matter is something other than a vanity puff piece.

Quite simply, if you can't be bothered to check whether other contributors here have provided substance in the past, even in only modest amounts, before trying to peddle canards and misrepresentations as fact, don't bother. Many here not only paid attention in class, but will treat your offerings with the scorn and derision that they deserve.

Ricardo's picture
Jesus of Nazareth was

Jesus of Nazareth was theistic.
an argument for believing in God?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Ricardo

@ Ricardo

Jesus of Nazareth was theistic.

There is no evidence that the Jesus (of Nazareth or the Nazarene) figure as described in the gospels ever existed; so your question is without foundation.

All the later stories of the Jesus figure are either hallucinatory (Paul) or plain storytelling (Mark and Luke), jewish propaganda (Matthew, but based on Mark anyway) or just plain fiction (John)

So what do you base your statement upon?

whydoweexist's picture
Um... *coughs*

Um... *coughs*

yes. there. is.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture


Well? Do start.

whydoweexist's picture
Oh there's so many... where

Oh there's so many... where should I start? ;)

Tin-Man's picture


...*clearing throat*... Ahem... Ummm, just out of curiosity, is The Lord aware you are taking his name in vain? I must say, I have to give you kudos for being bold enough to come in here claiming you are God... *chuckle*...

Edit to add: Awww... Looks like you are another of those who likes to give himself an "AGREE". Oh, how adorably cute... *clasping hands together over heart endearingly*...

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TM

@ TM

No he is claiming to be "iamthelordalmighty number 413"....so there are 412 other Lord Gods Almighties floating out there....no fucking evidence for any of them but hey....what do I know...#413 is here so it must be true right?

Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man Re: "...so there

@Old Man Re: "...so there are 412 other Lord Gods Almighties floating out there....no fucking evidence for any of them but hey...."

Well, duh! Of COURSE there is no evidence for any of the other 412 spaceless, timeless, non-corporeal gods who exist outside our universe, you dumbass. LordAlmighty413 ain't stupid , you know. After he assassinated all those other gods, he disposed of their non-bodies and all other evidence of their existence in a secret universe outside our dimension. How the hell else do think he managed to become 413? I can't believe I had to explain that to you.... Sheesh! You are suppose to know these things already... *rolling eyes*...

Cody81187's picture
Is there any evidence for

Is there any evidence for Jesus outside the Bible? Yes.

Hostile Non-Biblical Pagan Accounts
There are a number of ancient classical accounts of Jesus from pagan, non-Christian sources. These accounts are generally hostile to Christianity; some ancient authors denied the miraculous nature of Jesus and the events surrounding His life:

Thallus (52AD)
Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who previously tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

If only more of Thallus’ record could be found, we might find more confirmation of Jesus’ crucifixion. But there are some things we can conclude from this account: Jesus lived, He was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of His crucifixion.

Tacitus (56-120AD)
Cornelius Tacitus was known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians. He was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and was also proconsul of Asia. In his “Annals’ of 116AD, he describes Emperor Nero’s response to the great fire in Rome and Nero’s claim that the Christians were to blame:

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.”

In this account, Tacitus confirms several historical elements of the Biblical narrative: Jesus lived in Judea, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and had followers who were persecuted for their faith in Christ.

Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
Sometime after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King”:

“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

From this account, we can add to our understanding of Jesus: He was a wise and influential man who died for His beliefs. The Jewish leadership was somehow responsible for Jesus’ death. Jesus’ followers adopted His beliefs and lived their lives accordingly.

Phlegon (80-140AD)
In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:

“Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour.” (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):

“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place … ” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)

“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)

From these accounts, we can add something to our understanding: Jesus had the ability to accurately predict the future, was crucified under the reign of Tiberius Caesar and demonstrated His wounds after he was resurrected.

Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)
Early Christians were also described in early, non-Christian history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:

“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

This early description of the first Christians documents several facts: the first Christians believed Jesus was GOD, the first Christians upheld a high moral code, and these early followers met regularly to worship Jesus.

Suetonius (69-140AD)
Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):

“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome).” (Life of Claudius, 25:4)

This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:

“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.” (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)

There is much we can learn from Suetonius as it is related to the life of early Christians. From this account, we know Jesus had an immediate impact on His followers: They were committed to their belief Jesus was God and withstood the torment and punishment of the Roman Empire. Jesus had a curious and immediate impact on His followers, empowering them to die courageously for what they knew to be true.

Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)
Lucian was a Greek satirist who spoke sarcastically of Christ and Christians, but in the process, he did affirm they were real people and never referred to them as fictional characters:

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)

From this account we can add to our description of Jesus: He taught about repentance and about the family of God. These teachings were quickly adopted by Jesus’ followers and exhibited to the world around them.

Celsus (175AD)
This is the last hostile, non-Christian account we will examine (although there are many other later accounts in history). Celsus was quite antagonistic to the claims of the Gospels, but in his criticism he unknowingly affirmed and reinforced the Biblical authors and their content. His writing is extensive and he alludes to 80 different Biblical quotes, confirming their early appearance in history. In addition, he admits the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the early 2nd century:

“Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.”

Celsus admits Jesus was reportedly born of a virgin, but then argues this could supernatural account could not be possible and offers the idea Jesus was the illegitimate son of a man named Panthera (an idea borrowed from Jews who opposed Jesus at the time). But in writing this account, Celsus does confirm several important claims: Jesus had an earthly father who was a carpenter, possessed unusual magical powers and claimed to be God.

Hostile Non-Biblical Jewish Accounts
In addition to classical pagan sources chronicling the life of Jesus and His followers, there are also a number of ancient hostile Jewish sources describing Jesus. These are written by Jewish theologians, historians and leaders who were definitely not sympathetic to the Christian cause. Their writings are often very harsh, critical and even demeaning to Jesus. But there is still much these writings confirm:

Josephus (37-101AD)
In more detail than any other non-biblical historian, Josephus writes about Jesus in his “the Antiquities of the Jews” in 93AD. Josephus was born just four years after the crucifixion. He was a consultant for Jewish rabbis at an early age, became a Galilean military commander by the age of sixteen, and he was an eyewitness to much of what he recorded in the first century A.D. Under the rule of Roman emperor Vespasian, Josephus was allowed to write a history of the Jews. This history includes three passages about Christians, one in which he describes the death of John the Baptist, one in which he mentions the execution of James (and describes him as the brother of Jesus the Christ), and a final passage which describes Jesus as a wise man and the messiah. There is much legitimate controversy about the writing of Josephus, because the first discoveries of his writings are late enough to have been re-written by Christians who were accused of making additions to the text. So to be fair, we’ll examine a scholarly reconstruction stripped of Christian embellishment:

“Now around this time lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was a worker of amazing deeds and was a teacher of people who gladly accept the truth. He won over both many Jews and many Greeks. Pilate, when he heard him accused by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, (but) those who had first loved him did not cease (doing so). To this day the tribe of Christians named after him has not disappeared” (This neutral reconstruction follows closely the one proposed by John Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus: The Roots of the Problem and the Person).

Now there are many other ancient versions of Josephus’ writing which are even more explicit about the nature of Jesus’ miracles, life and his status as the Christ, but let’s take this conservative version and see what we can learn. From this text, we can conclude: Jesus lived in Palestine, was a wise man and a teacher, worked amazing deeds, was accused by the Jews, crucified under Pilate and had followers called Christians.

Jewish Talmud (400-700AD)
While the earliest Talmudic writings of Jewish Rabbis appear in the 5th century, the tradition of these Rabbinic authors indicates they are faithfully transmitting teachings from the early “Tannaitic” period of the 1st Century BC to the 2nd Century AD. Scholars believe there are a number of Talmudic writings referring to Jesus, and many of these writings are said to use code words to describe Jesus (such as “Balaam” or “Ben Stada” or “a certain one”). But for our purposes we’ll be very conservative and limit our examination to the passages referring to Jesus in a more direct way:

“Jesus practiced magic and led Israel astray” (b. Sanhedrin 43a; cf. t. Shabbat 11.15; b. Shabbat 104b)

“Rabbi Hisda (d. 309) said that Rabbi Jeremiah bar Abba said, ‘What is that which is written, ‘No evil will befall you, nor shall any plague come near your house’? (Psalm 91:10)… ‘No evil will befall you’ (means) that evil dreams and evil thoughts will not tempt you; ‘nor shall any plague come near your house’ (means) that you will not have a son or a disciple who burns his food like Jesus of Nazareth.” (b. Sanhedrin 103a; cf. b. Berakhot 17b)

“Our rabbis have taught that Jesus had five disciples: Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah. They brought Matthai to (to trial). He said, ‘Must Matthai be killed? For it is written, ‘When (mathai) shall I come and appear before God?’” (Psalm 92:2) They said to him, “Yes Matthai must be killed, for it is written, ‘When (mathai) he dies his name will perish’” (Psalm 41:5). They brought Nakai. He said to them, “Must Nakai be killed? For it is written, “The innocent (naqi) and the righteous will not slay’” (Exodus 23:7). They said to him, “Yes, Nakai must be kille, for it is written, ‘In secret places he slays the innocent (naqi)’” (Psalm 10:8). (b. Sanhedrin 43a; the passage continues in a similar way for Nezer, Buni and Todah)

And this, perhaps the most famous of Talmudic passages about Jesus:

“It was taught: On the day before the Passover they hanged Jesus. A herald went before him for forty days (proclaiming), “He will be stoned, because he practiced magic and enticed Israel to go astray. Let anyone who knows anything in his favor come forward and plead for him.” But nothing was found in his favor, and they hanged him on the day before the Passover. (b. Sanhedrin 43a)

From just these passages mentioning Jesus by name, we can conclude the following: Jesus had magical powers, led the Jews away from their beliefs, had disciples who were martyred for their faith (one of whom was named Matthai), and was executed on the day before the Passover.

The Toledot Yeshu (1000AD)
The Toledot Yeshu is a medieval Jewish retelling of the life of Jesus. It is completely anti-Christian, to be sure. There are many versions of these ‘retellings’, and as part of the transmitted oral and written tradition of the Jews, we can presume their original place in antiquity, dating back to the time of Jesus’ first appearance as an influential leader who was drawing Jews away from their faith in the Law. The Toledot Yeshu contains a determined effort to explain away the miracles of Jesus and to deny the virgin birth. In some places, the text is quite vicious, but it does confirm many elements of the New Testament writings. Let’s take a look at a portion of the text (Jesus is called ‘Yehoshua’):

“In the year 3671 (in Jewish reckonging, it being ca 90 B.C.) in the days of King Jannaeus, a great misfortune befell Israel, when there arose a certain disreputable man of the tribe of Judah, whose name was Joseph Pandera. He lived at Bethlehem, in Judah. Near his house dwelt a widow and her lovely and chaste daughter named Miriam. Miriam was betrothed to Yohanan, of the royal house of David, a man learned in the Torah and God-fearing. At the close of a certain Sabbath, Joseph Pandera, attractive and like a warrior in appearance, having gazed lustfully upon Miriam, knocked upon the door of her room and betrayed her by pretending that he was her betrothed husband, Yohanan. Even so, she was amazed at this improper conduct and submitted only against her will. Thereafter, when Yohanan came to her, Miriam expressed astonishment at behavior so foreign to his character. It was thus that they both came to know the crime of Joseph Pandera and the terrible mistake on the part of Miriam… Miriam gave birth to a son and named him Yehoshua, after her brother. This name later deteriorated to Yeshu (“Yeshu” is the Jewish “name” for Jesus. It means “May His Name Be Blotted Out”). On the eighth day he was circumcised. When he was old enough the lad was taken by Miriam to the house of study to be instructed in the Jewish tradition. One day Yeshu walked in front of the Sages with his head uncovered, showing shameful disrespect. At this, the discussion arose as to whether this behavior did not truly indicate that Yeshu was an illegitimate child and the son of a niddah. Moreover, the story tells that while the rabbis were discussing the Tractate Nezikin, he gave his own impudent interpretation of the law and in an ensuing debate he held that Moses could not be the greatest of the prophets if he had to receive counsel from Jethro. This led to further inquiry as to the antecedents of Yeshu, and it was discovered through Rabban Shimeon ben Shetah that he was the illegitimate son of Joseph Pandera. Miriam admitted it. After this became known, it was necessary for Yeshu to flee to Upper Galilee. After King Jannaeus, his wife Helene ruled over all Israel. In the Temple was to be found the Foundation Stone on which were engraven the letters of God’s Ineffable Name. Whoever learned the secret of the Name and its use would be able to do whatever he wished. Therefore, the Sages took measures so that no one should gain this knowledge. Lions of brass were bound to two iron pillars at the gate of the place of burnt offerings. Should anyone enter and learn the Name, when he left the lions would roar at him and immediately the valuable secret would be forgotten. Yeshu came and learned the letters of the Name; he wrote them upon the parchment which he placed in an open cut on his thigh and then drew the flesh over the parchment. As he left, the lions roared and he forgot the secret. But when he came to his house he reopened the cut in his flesh with a knife an lifted out the writing. Then he remembered and obtained the use of the letters. He gathered about himself three hundred and ten young men of Israel and accused those who spoke ill of his birth of being people who desired greatness and power for themselves. Yeshu proclaimed, “I am the Messiah; and concerning me Isaiah prophesied and said, ‘Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.’” He quoted other messianic texts, insisting, “David my ancestor prophesied concerning me: ‘The Lord said to me, thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.’” The insurgents with him replied that if Yeshu was the Messiah he should give them a convincing sign. They therefore, brought to him a lame man, who had never walked. Yeshu spoke over the man the letters of the Ineffable Name, and the leper was healed. Thereupon, they worshipped him as the Messiah, Son of the Highest. When word of these happenings came to Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin decided to bring about the capture of Yeshu. They sent messengers, Annanui and Ahaziah, who, pretending to be his disciples, said that they brought him an invitation from the leaders of Jerusalem to visit them. Yeshu consented on condition the members of the Sanhedrin receive him as a lord. He started out toward Jerusalem and, arriving at Knob, acquired an ass on which he rode into Jerusalem, as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah. The Sages bound him and led him before Queen Helene, with the accusation: “This man is a sorcerer and entices everyone.” Yeshu replied, “The prophets long ago prophesied my coming: ‘And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse,’ and I am he; but as for them, Scripture says ‘Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly.’” Queen Helene asked the Sages: “What he says, is it in your Torah?” They replied: “It is in our Torah, but it is not applicable to him, for it is in Scripture: ‘And that prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.’ He has not fulfilled the signs and conditions of the Messiah.” Yeshu spoke up: “Madam, I am the Messiah and I revive the dead.” A dead body was brought in; he pronounced the letters of the Ineffable Name and the corpse came to life. The Queen was greatly moved and said: “This is a true sign.” She reprimanded the Sages and sent them humiliated from her presence. Yeshu’s dissident followers increased and there was controversy in Israel. Yeshu went to Upper Galilee. the Sages came before the Queen, complaining that Yeshu practiced sorcery and was leading everyone astray. Therefore she sent Annanui and Ahaziah to fetch him. The found him in Upper Galilee, proclaiming himself the Son of God. When they tried to take him there was a struggle, but Yeshu said to the men of Upper Galilee: “Wage no battle.” He would prove himself by the power which came to him from his Father in heaven. He spoke the Ineffable Name over the birds of clay and they flew into the air. He spoke the same letters over a millstone that had been placed upon the waters. He sat in it and it floated like a boat. When they saw this the people marveled. At the behest of Yeshu, the emissaries departed and reported these wonders to the Queen. She trembled with astonishment. Then the Sages selected a man named Judah Iskarioto and brought him to the Sanctuary where he learned the letters of the Ineffable Name as Yeshu had done. When Yeshu was summoned before the queen, this time there were present also the Sages and Judah Iskarioto. Yeshu said: “It is spoken of me, ‘I will ascend into heaven.’” He lifted his arms like the wings of an eagle and he flew between heaven and earth, to the amazement of everyone…Yeshu was seized. His head was covered with a garment and he was smitten with pomegranate staves; but he could do nothing, for he no longer had the Ineffable Name. Yeshu was taken prisoner to the synagogue of Tiberias, and they bound him to a pillar. To allay his thirst they gave him vinegar to drink. On his head they set a crown of thorns. There was strife and wrangling between the elders and the unrestrained followers of Yeshu, as a result of which the followers escaped with Yeshu to the region of Antioch; there Yeshu remained until the eve of the Passover. Yeshu then resolved to go the Temple to acquire again the secret of the Name. That year the Passover came on a Sabbath day. On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu, accompanied by his disciples, came to Jerusalem riding upon an ass. Many bowed down before him. He entered the Temple with his three hundred and ten followers. One of them, Judah Iskarioto apprised the Sages that Yeshu was to be found in the Temple, that the disciples had taken a vow by the Ten Commandments not to reveal his identity but that he would point him out by bowing to him. So it was done and Yeshu was seized. Asked his name, he replied to the question by several times giving the names Mattai, Nakki, Buni, Netzer, each time with a verse quoted by him and a counter-verse by the Sages. Yeshu was put to death on the sixth hour on the eve of the Passover and of the Sabbath. When they tried to hang him on a tree it broke, for when he had possessed the power he had pronounced by the Ineffable Name that no tree should hold him. He had failed to pronounce the prohibition over the carob-stalk, for it was a plant more than a tree, and on it he was hanged until the hour for afternoon prayer, for it is written in Scripture, “His body shall not remain all night upon the tree.” They buried him outside the city. On the first day of the week his bold followers came to Queen Helene with the report that he who was slain was truly the Messiah and that he was not in his grave; he had ascended to heaven as he prophesied. Diligent search was made and he was not found in the grave where he had been buried. A gardener had taken him from the grave and had brought him into his garden and buried him in the sand over which the waters flowed into the garden. Queen Helene demanded, on threat of a severe penalty, that the body of Yeshu be shown to her within a period of three days. There was a great distress. When the keeper of the garden saw Rabbi Tanhuma walking in the field and lamenting over the ultimatum of the Queen, the gardener related what he had done, in order that Yeshu’s followers should not steal the body and then claim that he had ascended into heaven. The Sages removed the body, tied it to the tail of a horse and transported it to the Queen, with the words, “This is Yeshu who is said to have ascended to heaven.” Realizing that Yeshu was a false prophet who enticed the people and led them astray, she mocked the followers but praised the Sages.

Cognostic's picture
I will assume that Mara Bar

I will assume that Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD) is your third great bit of evidence. Having already debunked 1 and 2, after this I will call it a day as the rest of the bullshit won't be worth my time. Still, with that said, Cali seems to have taken up the challenge and you are in for a world of hurt, sufficiently beyond what I can deliver. Remember, you wrote the first wall of text. You didn't want to post your very best bit of evidence and see where that went. You wanted to play the shotgun game. Cali is exceptional at that game and from his last post seems motivated. I am kind, compared to the lashing you are about to get. Anyway, on to Mara Bar-Serapion.

Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD) Not contemporary to the life of Jesus by the way. Over 40 years after his death. Not much of a source to start with. Anyway: Up for question "In a letter to his son, Mara bar Serapion made the following statement:"

What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? (I ASSUME THIS IS ALSO EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF SOCRATES?) Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? (NOTHING ABOUT JESUS HERE) It was just after that their Kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates (ARE YOU SURE YOU ARE NOT ATTEMPTING TO JUSTIFY THE EXISTENCE OF SOCRATES?) did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good; He lived on in the teaching which He had given."

I see absolutely no mention of JESUS THE CHRIST in any of this.
"Time: It is unknown when Mara bar Serapion lived, whether he could have been an eyewitness to Jesus, or when he wrote this letter. At minimum, he wrote about 43 years after the supposed crucifixion, and it is possible that he could not have witnessed it. From this alone, this is weak evidence."

"Even conservative scholar F.F. Bruce states the letter was "written some time later than A.D. 73, but how much later we cannot be sure",[5] and Archibald Robertson -- who accepted the historicity of Jesus -- reported that "such authorities as Cureton and M'Lean date it in the second or even third" century.[6]"

""Wise King": It is possible (although admittedly unlikely) that "wise King" did not reference Jesus. Given that the other mentioned characters lived long before Jesus, Farrell Till argues that "[m]essianic pretenders in Judea were a dime a dozen" and that the 'wise King' could have been the "Teacher of Righteousness" mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls.[7]"

"Romans, not Jews: Given that Jesus was crucified by the Romans, not the Jews, Mara bar Serapion's choice of words is inexplicable unless we assume that he received his information about this 'wise King' from Christians. (Early Christians held the Jews at least partially responsible for Jesus' crucifixion.) However, if Mara bar Serapion received his information from Christians, two conclusions follow. First, it is highly likely that the 'wise King' was Jesus.[8] Second, Mara bar Serapion does not provide independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus, but is merely parroting Christians."

READ MORE IF YOU WANT TO: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mara_bar_Serapion

Why are you wasting our time, AND YOUR LIFE, on this drivel? A simple internet search would be enough to give you the facts you need to avoid looking like a complete idiot.

I have assumed your first three arguments were your best arguments and have no desire to continue on reading your drivel. If you think you have ONE GOOD BIT OF EVIDENCE please post that in a thread and we will all be more than happy to look at it. In the mean time..... seriously dude ------ FUCK OFF!

Tin-Man's picture
@Cody Re: "Thallus (52AD)

@Cody Re: "Thallus (52AD) Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who previously tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:"

Attorney (Questioning witness on the witness stand): "And tell the jury, please, Mr. Smith, what evidence do you have indicating the defendant - Mr. Cody over there - is guilty of the crimes you claim he committed?"

Mr. Smith: "Well, sir, I read a book that was wrote by Jim-Bob who read some documents written by Skeeter. And in them documents that Skeeter writ, Skeeter told how he haddaherd stories from othern folks who done said they had personally seened Mr. Cody havin' sum downright unnnn-usual kinky sex-u-all reeee-lations with-ins a stuffed opossum plum in the middle of town hall durin' a community meetin' roun-bout ten or fifteen years 'fore Skeeter was born. And, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'ma here to tell ya that Jim-Bob did a mighty fine a-nal-ee-sis of them-thare documents Skeeter writ, even iffin he didn't read them documents until many years after Skeeter up an' died in a tragic noodling accident. And I sure 'nuff believe ol' Jim-Bob wassa tellin' the truth, 'cause dern near ever-body in town always said Jim-Bob wassa sure-nuff good feller. Dang shame ol' Jim-Bob went-an got hisself kilt in that tore-nader all them years ago. An' I hear-tell all them documents wrote by Skeeter went up-in that tore-nader with Jim-Bob, an' ain't never been seen since."

Attorney: "Thank you Mr. Smith. No further questions, your Honor."

Judge: "Mr. Smith, you may step down and return to your seat in the gallery."

Lead Jury Member (standing as Mr. Smith exits witness stand): "Your Honor, no need to continue with any other testimonies. We the jury all agree that Mr. Smith's testimony contains more than enough evidence to find Mr. Cody guilty of the crime of Having Indecent Sexual Relations With A Taxidermic Mammal In A Public Place."

Calilasseia's picture
This could be fun ...

This could be fun ...

Cognostic's picture
Start a new thread with it.

Start a new thread with it. Wanna bet we get a shotgun bunch of bullshit.


Just post one fact. Post your very best piece of evidence. A shit-pile of bullshit is still bullshit. Post your very best example of evidence and once that is completely trashed, we can move on to your second best bit of evidence. Let's stay focused.

Cognostic's picture
@Cody: Another WLC styled

@Cody: Another WLC styled bullshit Christian apologetic presentation. No one with half an ounce of sense wants to wade through all that bullshit. POST ONE FACT / JUST ONE / your very best piece of evidence. A shit-pile of bullshit is still bullshit. You don't get to pile crap on top of crap to make something worth looking at. Once we deal with your very best piece of evidence. Then we can move on to your next bullshit argument.

Just for the sake of continuing the conversation, lets imagine #1 was your very best argument for the existence of Jesus. YOU SAID: "Thallus (52AD)
Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who previously tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:"

"Based on the Armenian translation of Eusebius (which preserves references not in the Greek version) one of his sources was ‘three volumes of Thallus, in which he made a summary in abbreviated fashion from the sack of Troy (1184 BCE) to the 167th Olympiad (which ended in July, 109 BCE)’. But to get this to fit the Jesus story one has to conclude the numerals in the Armenian translation are corrupt, with many scholars claiming that the 167th Olympiad should really be either the 207th Olympiad (ending in July, 52 CE) or the 217th Olympiad (which ended in July, 92 CE).[3]"

"There is no historical evidence of an eclipse during the time Jesus was supposedly crucified (the reason Africanus doubted the eclipse is because Easter happens near the full moon and a solar eclipse would have been impossible at that time, as was well-known). Moreover Bithynia is some 600 miles from Jerusalem, which, based on a 2016 earthquake in Alaska,[4] would have to have been 7.1 or higher to be felt in Jerusalem."

"In a scholarly work Carrier concluded "The curtness and brevity of this line is also what would be expected from a treatise that covered the history of the entire world over the enormous course of twelve centuries in only three scrolls. Whereas, by contrast, refutation of claims made in the literature of obscure cults is what would not be expected from such a treatise, there being neither room nor purpose for such a thing. Therefore the Histories of Thallus probably contained no such thing. And from the evidence of Eusebius, we can be virtually certain that it did not. Therefore Thallus should be removed from lists of writers attesting to Jesus, and Thallus’s most probable floruit should be revised to the middle to late second century."[6]"

END OF DISCUSSION: Your assertion does not hold up against actual evidence. It does not matter how you argue it. The actual evidence IS NOT THERE. (Shit Poor Evidence + Shit Poor Evidence, does not equal EVIDENCE.)


Cognostic's picture
@Cody: RE: Tacitus (56

@Cody: RE: Tacitus (56-120AD) YOU SAID:
Cornelius Tacitus was known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians. He was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and was also proconsul of Asia. In his “Annals’ of 116AD, he describes Emperor Nero’s response to the great fire in Rome and Nero’s claim that the Christians were to blame:

Lets pretend that this was your SECOND BEST bit of actual EVIDENCE. (Do you fucking imagine for a minute that we have not all heard this shit before? Really?)

Tacitus does not provide proof that Jesus Christ ever existed as a “historical” character. Tacitus, Roman Politician and Historian, (c. 56-120 CE)

"In his Annals, supposedly written around 107 CE, Tacitus purportedly related that the Emperor Nero (37-68) blamed the burning of Rome during his reign on “those people who were abhorred for their crimes and commonly called Christians.” Since the fire evidently broke out in the poor quarter where fanatic, agitating Messianic Jews allegedly jumped for joy, thinking the conflagration represented the eschatological development that would bring about the Messianic reign, it would not be unreasonable for authorities to blame the fire on them. However, it is clear that these Messianic Jews were not (yet) called “Christiani.” In support of this contention, Nero’s famed minister, Seneca (5?-65), whose writings evidently provided much fuel for the incipient Christian ideology, has not a word about these “most-hated” sectarians." CHRISTIANS WERE NOT CALLED CHRISTIAN DURING THE LIFE OF TACITUS!

"Tacitean passage next states that these fire-setting agitators were followers of “Christus” (Christos), who, in the reign of Tiberius, “was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate.” The passage also recounts that the Christians, who constituted a “vast multitude at Rome,” were then sought after and executed in ghastly manners, including by crucifixion. However, the date that a “vast multitude” of Christians was discovered and executed would be around 64 CE, and it is evident that there was no “vast multitude” of Christians at Rome by this time, as there were not even a multitude of them in Judea."

"Oddly, this brief mention of Christians is all there is in the voluminous works of Tacitus regarding this extraordinary movement, which allegedly possessed such power as to be able to burn Rome. Also, the Neronian persecution of Christians is unrecorded by any other historian of the day and supposedly took place at the very time when Paul was purportedly freely preaching at Rome (Acts 28:30-31), facts that cast strong doubt on whether or not it actually happened. Drews concludes that the Neronian persecution is likely “nothing but the product of a Christian’s imagination in the fifth century.”

Again, your evidence for the SECOND BEST CLAIM just does not hold holy water. Had you gone to a library prior to posting your nonsense or even done an internet search, you could have discovered these facts and saved yourself looking like a complete idiot.


STILL WAITING FOR THAT ONE FACT THAT WILL TURN THE TIDE IN YOUR FAVOR.... We all happen to know that it is not there. Do you think we are stupid? We watch the debates. Not even theologians agree on these issues. The supposed evidence you have provided is at the very best spurious.

Cognostic's picture
@Cody: You are wasting your

@Cody: You are wasting your life away on this shit. WAKE THE FUCK UP! I challenge you to begin a thread with your VERY BEST bit of evidence. That bit of ABSOLUTE PROOF you feel is the most compelling. Stop playing this bullshit game of mentioning every apologetic resource you have ever heard. Bullshit piled upon bullshit STINKS LIKE BULLSHIT. Either post your very best argument for the existence of Jesus or go away! You are not worth the time it takes to respond.

Cognostic's picture


Tin-Man's picture


Seems like a job for Old Man, too. Glad I got my say in before either of them arrive... *chuckle*...

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Cog

@ Cog

Well bugger: Having read that calumnitic post and the replies...and what utterly destroyed it? The mention of Suetonius never mind the very adequate demolition served by Cog of the first two idiocies. .

Even if Thallus was accurate in his verse, events and dates (and that is a joke in itself) ...it only goes to prove that darkness was observed by ONE witness....nothing to do with a magic jesus figure at all.

And the jospehus references..OH FFS. do these clowns READ anything?

Cody81187's picture
Haha you guys crack me up

Haha you guys crack me up with your denial!

Tin-Man's picture
@Cody Re: "Haha you guys

@Cody Re: "Haha you guys crack me up with your denial!"

...*puzzled look*... Denial???... Whatever do you mean? Did you not notice you got pronounced "Guilty" based on the same type of evidence you provided to us?... *indignant look*... Sheesh! THERE'S gratitude for you!... *throwing hands up in exasperation*...

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Cody

@ Cody
What? you want a detailed refutation of paragraphs of inaccuracies, conclusions drawn from thin air and generalities? like:

Hostile Non-Biblical Jewish Accounts
In addition to classical pagan sources chronicling the life of Jesus and His followers, there are also a number of ancient hostile Jewish sources describing Jesus. These are written by Jewish theologians, historians and leaders who were definitely not sympathetic to the Christian cause. Their writings are often very harsh, critical and even demeaning to Jesus. But there is still much these writings confirm:

Then you go on to quote 5th century and later Rabbinical sources?

Did you just visit a lolly shop and get high on sugar?

There is no contemporary evidence for a jesus figure as described in the gospels, none.

What you have supplied is evidence of your inability to grasp the historical method and proof that you will believe anything and even mistranslate and make up perfectly translatable texts to suit your narrative without actually understanding them. .

Cognostic's picture
@Cody: "We crack you up

@Cody: "We crack you up with our denial?"

"We are of the opinion, "something was cracked before you got here."

Not to worry though. We all enjoy a good laugh. Your ineptitude is only preceded by your gullibility. Remember, many theists log in and read these comments. We love having idiotic assertions like yours around. They only serve to demonstrate the folly of theism and to make us look good. In that light, your useless waste of effort is actually appreciated on this end.


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