Why Westboro Babtist Chruch Matters

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Deforres's picture
It is a metaphor, which

It is a metaphor, which attempts to show how absolutely ludicrous a statement is by comparing it to a statement of similar ludicrousy.

AlphaLogica157's picture
No, see the DEFINITION of

No, see the DEFINITION of false equivalence I have provided. You and Nylar have all ready shit all over my other thread, do not bring your bullshit over here. Because you are starting to piss me off. I do not come and shit all over your threads, do not do it to mine. Chimp and I were have a perfectly decent discussion and I do not want you to burn this thread down like you did with my other one.

Deforres's picture
Its not a false equivalence.

Its not a false equivalence. Its a metaphor. As I said.

AlphaLogica157's picture
Metaphor:

Metaphor:

a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.

a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract.

Again, you are wrong. But I am done indulging you, I will just ignore anything you have to say. You are not offering anything to the discussion. Go and shit all over the thread of someone else.

Deforres's picture
The definition you used for

The definition you used for like is not correct for the way its meant. I will admit I was wrong in saying metaphor. However, if you use one of likes alternative meanings, this:

" Saying we need assholes like them around to appreciate our freedoms IS LIKE(is equivalent too) saying we need a Nazi Holocaust to appreciate tolerance and peace. "

Becomes:

" Saying we need assholes like them around to appreciate our freedoms IS LIKE(as though you are) saying we need a Nazi Holocaust to appreciate tolerance and peace. "

Deforres's picture
Since you like your

Since you like your definitions so much:

like1
līk/Submit
conjunctioninformal
1.
in the same way that; as.
"people who change countries like they change clothes"
2.
as though; as if.
"I felt like I'd been kicked by a camel"

Deforres's picture
" Saying we need assholes

" Saying we need assholes like them around to appreciate our freedoms IS LIKE(as though or in the same way as) saying we need a Nazi Holocaust to appreciate tolerance and peace. "

Nyarlathotep's picture
AlphaLogica - "To say that

AlphaLogica - "To say that WBC is equivalent to the Nazi holocaust, is a false equivalence."

Right, and that is exactly what no one said:

Saying that A and B are similar/alike because they have a subset of components in common is not a equivalence.
Saying that A is B because they have a subset of components in common is an equivalence.

To establish an equivalence, you must show that ALL the components of both A and B must be in common. A false equivalence is when you make the assumption that they are all in common from the fact that a subset of them are in common. No one did this. No one even came close. Pointing out similarities between A and B is not an equivalence, so it can never be a false equivalence.

Deforres's picture
Why is it he gets ticked off

Why is it he gets ticked off when flaws in his logic are revealed?

Nyarlathotep's picture
He probably means false

He probably means false analogy. But that is just a guess.

mykcob4's picture
If anyone wants to see how

If anyone wants to see how the free speech is actually enforced by law check out the history of cases by the ACLU and the Southern Poverty Law Group.

AlphaLogica157's picture
Could you give an example? I

Could you give an example? I am sure anything you can share will be beneficial to the discussion. And what do you mean when you say "Actually enforced"?

charvakheresy's picture
@ AlphaLogica - The direction

@ AlphaLogica - The direction of your original post is almost academic and unrealistic in defence of Westboro Baptist Church's right to freedom of expression.

I do not know much of Westboro Baptist Church or their reason for opposing the burial of fallen US soldiers and my refutation will be based solely on the information you provided in your OP.

1. You seemed to imply that patriotism must include questioning the countries choices as much as or over blindly following them whenever necessary.
I agree with this and so will most people here. Questioning the policy of your country is your duty as much as it is a right.
So if WBC intends to speak up against the Wars and their way of doing so is by protesting the funeral of fallen soldiers it defies common sense.

a. Soldiers follow orders. They are not involved in policy decision. They do as they are instructed and it is not a democracy in the army. Their lives and the countries security depend on their obedience. Thus protesting their funeral is of no value.
If the WBC cared so much they should have protested against the funeral of politicians instead. They are the ones responsible for policy decisions on which the soldiers are forced to act.

2. You seemed a bit worried about the rights to freedom of expression for the WBC but failed to acknowledge the rights of the individual soldiers to live and die in dignity. Their act of protest is an affront to the personal dignity of the fallen soldier.

Finally I would propose that the WBC should further their cause and protest the funeral rights of all people associated with the gun lobby that makes the guns that are used in war or the cigarette companies that sell slow killing poisons. somehow that protest doesn't peak their fancy.

Once again this is what I was able to understand of the original post and so my refutations is based solely on that. If there is something I missed out please let me know.

AlphaLogica157's picture
Thank you for your response,

Thank you for your response, you have given a very fair critique of my OP. I first want to clear up a few things about my OP.

" You seemed to imply that patriotism must include questioning the countries choices as much as or over blindly following them whenever necessary."

What I meant, is that patriotism, is more than uncritical support for ones country or government, in this you are correct, but I went on to say that patriotism must also include living up to the principles that are at the foundation of our government, and when WBC protests the funeral of a fallen solder, even though it is morally outrageous, it is, in itself, and expression of one of the principles of our country, and that because they through their actions, live up to the principle of free expression, in this way, they are patriotic.

"Soldiers follow orders. They are not involved in policy decision...."

The reason why I used WBC as an focus point for my essay, is because they protest the funeral of fallen solders, and we in our country give them credit for defending and upholding our freedoms, but when WBC protests their funerals, we feel outraged at the blatant disrespect, so we feel justified in forbidding them from protesting. But this creates a problem, because the solder who has died, is recognized as sacrificing their life for our collective freedoms, including free speech, so when we seek to remove the right of free speech, we have ultimately rendered that sacrifice in vain.

"You seemed a bit worried about the rights to freedom of expression for the WBC but failed to acknowledge the rights of the individual soldiers to live and die in dignity. "

There is an issue here we have to address, and that is the uncomfortable fact that there is no right to die in dignity. Going back to the point of sacrifice in the name of our freedoms, remember that it is not ONE solder who sacrificed their life to uphold our freedom, but EVERY solder, in the history of America. And the collective weight of all those lives, means that this freedom is greater than any one life.

Now I agree with you that the aims of WBC are way off the mark, and at times appear to me to be nothing more than cruelty for the sake of cruelty. But just because I feel this way does not mean that they have no right, or that i can use my position of outrage to prevent them from protesting.

I want to ask what you meant by this:

"The direction of your original post is almost academic and unrealistic in defence of Westboro Baptist Church's right to freedom of expression."

I am unsure what you are saying here and do not want to respond to something you did not say. So if you could elaborate I would appreciate it.

Thank you again.

charvakheresy's picture
I want to ask what you meant

I want to ask what you meant by this:

"The direction of your original post is almost academic and unrealistic in defence of Westboro Baptist Church's right to freedom of expression."

AL - The direction that the WBC have taken their opinion in is cruel and though they have a right to free speech. This exercise they are involved in serves no purpose but to defame a person and someone who cannot refute (of course as they are deceased). Thus in my opinion this discussion on whether WBC reserve this right or not is a very academic discussion and a valid academic discussion. It asses to what extent we are able to push the boundaries of freedom of speech.

However their freedom of speech is coming at odds at the personal dignity of the fallen soldiers and their right to have a dignified burial. I am not sure whether the american constitution or law affords such a right but I am guessing that slander or defaming a person could at least possibly get you sued (I got this listening to some comments made by D. Trump and I realise he is not a reflection of anything american, Please correct me if I am wrong on this).

Finally I don't think that their act of cruelty should be labelled as patriotic just because they are voicing an unpopular opinion backed by a right afforded to them.

AlphaLogica157's picture
Thank you for the

Thank you for the clarification.

"Thus in my opinion this discussion on whether WBC reserve this right or not is a very academic discussion and a valid academic discussion. It asses to what extent we are able to push the boundaries of freedom of speech."

I agree, I wrote this because i believe that it is a nessacary discussion to be had. I did not expect everyone to agree with my argument though.

"However their freedom of speech is coming at odds at the personal dignity of the fallen soldiers and their right to have a dignified burial. I am not sure whether the american constitution or law affords such a right"

No, there is no right under the constitution to a dignified burial, it is more of a social agreement that one should be afforded dignity in death, whether this is right or wrong morally is up for discussion.

"but I am guessing that slander or defaming a person could at least possibly get you sued"

This has happened, and the SCOTUS ruled that what WBC does is not slander or defamation or harassment. If you would like more detail, the fourth post on this thread is an examination of the ruiling on the case of Synder V Phelps. It is my response to Mykcob, on the first page.

"Finally I don't think that their act of cruelty should be labelled as patriotic just because they are voicing an unpopular opinion backed by a right afforded to them."

This is why we have the first amendment (free speech) to protect unpopular speech from the moral consensus of the majority, I argue that what they do is patriotic precisely because they excersize unpopular speech, and any act, popular or not, that embodies a principle that is at the foundation of our government, is patriotic. Now this of course is merely a matter of opinion, so what you deem as patriotic is no more correct or incorrect than what I deem as patriotic. I use the logic of my argument to defend why I deem it so, and trust that will convience some, but not all. But if a patriot is only one who feels strong support for their government, what happens when the government itselfs acts against one of our founding principles? If the government forbids free excersize of religion, would it be patriotic to stand by the government even though this is counter to the principle of freedom of religion? I would argue that a patriot would choose to defend the right, over supporting the government.

CyberLN's picture
Have had a chuckle over this

Have had a chuckle over this thread...where someone has been told what is tantamount to "shut up and go away" in a discussion about free speech.

chimp3's picture
Irony is not always free!

Irony is not always free!

AlphaLogica157's picture
I said that because they are

@CyberLN

I said that because they are only interested in taking the topic off course, I told them that they can comment if they have anything to offer towards the discussion. I do not want them burning down this thread the same way they did with my one about Village atheists. So i extend the same to you, because you also played a role in ruining my other thread when you got all hung up on the word "WE" If you have anything to offer towards this topic I would love to hear it. But this jumping in and leaving a smart ass comment that does nothing more than derail the discussion is not helping.

Deforres's picture
Here's something twords the

Here's something twords the discussion:

If you use one of likes alternate definitions, you get this:

" Saying we need assholes like them around to appreciate our freedoms IS LIKE(as though you are) saying we need a Nazi Holocaust to appreciate tolerance and peace. "

AlphaLogica157's picture
I provided the definition as

I provided the definition as it was used in that context, which is to say that something is like or similar to something else.

Deforres's picture
Is the definition I used not

Is the definition I used not correct for the contex?

AlphaLogica157's picture
" Saying we need assholes

" Saying we need assholes like them around to appreciate our freedoms IS LIKE(as though you are) saying we need a Nazi Holocaust to appreciate tolerance and peace. "

Yes, that mirrors the one I provided. Which is another way to say that something is equivalent

a person or thing that is equal to or corresponds with another in value, amount, function, meaning, etc.

Deforres's picture
1: Saying that A and B are

1: Saying that A and B are similar/alike because they have a subset of components in common is not a equivalence.

2: Saying that A is B because they have a subset of components in common is an equivalence.

I did 1, not 2.

AlphaLogica157's picture
But that is not what Chimp

But that is not what Chimp said

To put it another way that is perfectly in line with the definition

Saying we need assholes like them around to appreciate our freedoms is equivalent to saying we need a Nazi Holocaust to appreciate tolerance and peace. "

Deforres's picture
Having the word equivalent in

Having the word equivalent in a sentence does not nessesarily make it an equivalence. It has to follow the path of saying that A is B because they have a subset of components in common is an equivalence. Which chimps sentence does not. If he had said "Saying we need assholes like them around to appreciate our freedoms IS saying that we need a Nazi Holocaust to appreciate tolerance and peace. " it would be an equivalence. But he didn't. So its not an equivalence.

AlphaLogica157's picture
Fine whatever, i do not care

Fine whatever, i do not care anymore. I wanted to avoid this argument because it is only derailing the discussion. So in this I have failed. If you have anything to offer about free speech or WBC then I would love to hear it. But I am done talking about this.

Deforres's picture
How is that derailing the

How is that derailing the discussion?

Are the words that chimp said NOT a part of the discussion?

Is your attempt at making what he said look erroneous NOT a part of the discussion?

Is me showing you why said attempt is misplaced NOT a part of the disscussion? (And yes, this post is a part of the discussion, regardless of whether you say it is or not. Word of God can't change that)

chimp3's picture
I meant to assert an

I meant to assert an equivelance and I stand by my assertion.

Deforres's picture
In light of that, I rest my

In light of that, I rest my case, and apologize to all party's involved.

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