If you begin a debate with a moderate Muslim, (AKA - A Muslim that does not follow the Quaran or its religion properly) they will attempt to avoid your well substantiated arguments by watering down the message of their faith and the Quaran.
They will tell you that the 72 virgin concept does not define Islam or even that it does not exist. Some might even assert that sex virgins do not exist in Islam. But sex virgins come from the biggest source of Islamic Bullshit, The Quaran.
"Indeed we have produced the women of paradise in a new creation and made them virgins, devoted to their husbands and of equal age," 56: 35-37
"Full breasted companions of equal age." 78: 33
Virgins in heaven are for men, so that they can lie about all day, drink, have sex, and worship Allah. These women have no free will. They are big breasted, full eyed, and untouched.
"There will be no one without a wife in paradise" Sahih Muslim 40: 67-93 And of course the men will have their earthly wives as well. What a great treat for the women.
How will the men keep up with all these women? Well in Islamic heaven the men will be given the strength of 100 men. Tirmidhi 4:12 25-36
Heaven is a place for fornication with virgins, worshiping Allah and ..... little else.
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..and what the fuck is the fascination of virgins to these fucktards? Give me a woman who knows what she's doing.
It has to go back to wanting to be like their pedophile prophet.
Perhaps virgins are preferred because they might not know if the guy is doing it right or not.
I'm surprised the virgins aren't 9 year old girls.
"I'm surprised the virgins aren't 9 year old girls."
I'll answer for Roy - What would be wrong with that?
Throughout the Muslim world they often are, and as we can see from so called "moderates" like ROYISM, some of them would like to be able to lower the age of consent to 9 in all countries. Introduce sharia law, that ultimately turns women and girls into chattel.
When we actually examine, especially highly patriarchal religion societies obsession with virginity it actually becomes fairly easy to understand (but certainly even harder to turn a blind eye to!)
Let's rewind 1000+ years where this obsession originated.
- Birth control is close to non existent (yes, there were condoms back then, but they were not very effective, quite difficult to obtain, and really only available for regular use to only the very elite very rich few.)
- For just about anyone there was no way for the man to verify very well if the child was his or not (beyond the exceedingly obvious like a large skin color change.)
- In many societies the parents were expected to provide dowries to go with (usually!) the daughters to in a sense bribe the husband to take care of the daughter and maybe the parents as well as they got older. (This could easily wipe out the estate/holdings of a family if there was a long string of girls being born. (So having a baby can be a very very expensive proposition, want to make sure at the least it is your own flesh and blood and not someone else's through subterfuge.)
- If someone did not have kids or other younger family to take care of them as they got older and infirm, they would likely starve to death, or perhaps die of exposure. And certainly be taken advantage of as for most people and the world, the rule of law only really applied to the very rich living in a few cities (most of the society was rural where there was little rule of the law.)
So how does virginity play into this?
Well first we have to understand, back in those cultures, a vast majority of people had no real way to check virginity. Sure there is the highly inaccurate and barbaric act of checking a woman's hymen. Not only can the hymen be broken easily without intercourse, especially in the highly physical lifestyles back then, (One has to weep at the thought of how many innocent girls/women were ostracized for not being virgins even though they were!) But worse yet for accuracy, it is even possible for the hymen to heal AFTER intercourse!, meaning it had was not a very accurate measurement at all.
However, virginity, even if falsely confirmed, does mean that if a man marries (buys/owns a woman) that for as long as he can keep an eye on the woman at all times, any child that does come along is very likely to be his.
People also generally understood, even back then more monogamous couples tended not to get diseased as much. We all want, and especially back then NEEDED to have fertile women capable of bearing children for our own survival as we age to take care of us. A "diseased" women (and man!) reduced this likelihood.
We also begin to understand through this need why we desire certain types of women, able to bear many healthy children, (many because back in those times it was frighteningly common that children would not make it to adulthood.) Unfortunately younger women is also well understood to be needed, where as the man only had to be young enough to do the physical labor to help provide. Thus the obsession with youth = attractive. Unfortunately some folks take this to an extreme.. pedophillia.
Horrible stuff when examined. Religion is playing on this stuff with heaven being full of virgin girls. Besides, sex sells. Want to sell your religion con? Promise the men a bunch of virgins in this life and especially the next. (Also useful for convincing men to go off to to holy wars, they likely will not return from.)
@LogicFTW
I appreciate you delving into the history of this. I was particularly fascinated by the disclosure that there were something akin to rubbers way back when.
However, I don't think this explains the fascination with virgins. I could be wrong, and only have personal experience to go by, but I think sex is much better with a partner that you know well. That's why I don't understand the desire for virgins and can only speculate that it is at least somewhat a pedophile perversion as exhibited by the Prophet (PBUH).
@NewSkeptic
Oh I am sure it is only part of the fascination, the point is there is a pretty obvious connection between societal rules (often based off of religious nonsense) that further heightens people obsession with virginity, (the obsession is super obvious when you consider the virgin mary stories (or similar.)
We humans also tend to get obsessed with what we cannot have, I think we all know that. There is a part of people that also likes variety, exciting and new.
"exciting and new".
Love, exciting and new
Come aboard, were expecting you
Love, lifes sweetest reward
Let it flow, it floats back to you
Love Boat soon will be making another run
The Love Boat promises something for everyone
Set a course for adventure
Your mind on a new romance
I'll leave it at that for copyright purposes. This is probably not a bad way to interpret Islamic heaven.
I am sure any fellow sailors will collaborate my meanderings. When at sea, a sailor can be out of touch with the "pleasures" of civilization, notably women and booze. And of course, we talked a lot about those two near and dear subjects. It is no surprise that when a ship docks and the sailors allowed shore leave, there are just two things on their minds.
The point is, if you talk about something constantly, you convince yourself that it is the most important thing in your life.
HORRIBLE STUFF? Aw Fuck. I was thinking of converting. I could blow myself up tonight and get blown up again tomorrow night.
What a delight to have your opinion on this matter. Too bad the dictionary is too difficult for you to use. Would make for a more pleasant chat.
Hint: it doesn't say "virgin".
Hint, this is not his error, he is being ironic, the error comes from Muslims, take it up with them, and do please relent from your tedious arrogantly self righteous stance that you alone understand the fucking koran, and have uncovered it's esoteric message from an omniscient deity.
@Sheldon
Of course its his error. If he believes the translation is a good as the original he's wrong and this is error due to that. If there was (there isn't) an Islamic scholar who sad it is so, and he would believe him instead of the quran, it would again be his error.
What a shameless lie. Again he is highlighting that there are Muslims who believe this, the error has not originated with him, it's not hard really, but you do seem too blinkered to cope with the simplest ideas. It;s a common failing in theists though, as they are so closed minded.
@Leper: Someone is certainly in error. Why are men going to die, go to heaven, and take care of little girls.
RE: There isn't an Islamic scholar - Are you insane? I have been quoting the Quaran and Islamic Scholars throughout the thread. YOU ARE A LIAR!
"The houris (/ˈhʊəriz/;[1] from Persian: حُـورِی, ḥūrī; plural of ḥaurāʾ or ḥūrīyah;[note 1] Arabic: حُـورِيَّـة) are beings in Islamic religion, described in English translations as "and splendid companions of equal age [or well-matched]",[2][3] "lovely eyed",[4] of "modest gaze"[5] and virgins[6] who will accompany the faithful in Jannah (Muslim paradise).[7] The houris are mentioned in several passages of the Quran, always in plural form. No specifics are ever given, though, as to the number of houris that should be available to each believer. The Quran uses feminine adjective for houri. The Qur'an says that one of the favors granted to those in Paradise is houris "untouched before them by man or Jinni",[12] which implies that they are (female) virgins.[13] They are described as virgins in 56:36
44:54 Even so (it will be). And We shall wed them unto fair ones [hourin] with wide, lovely eyes.[17] كَذَلِكَ وَزَوَّجْنَاهُم بِحُورٍ عِينٍ (So the Muslim men are going to wed 9 year olds - Virgins - according to you.
52:20 Reclining on ranged couches. And we wed them unto fair ones [houri] with wide, lovely eyes.[17] مُتَّكِئِينَ عَلَى سُرُرٍ مَّصْفُوفَةٍ وَزَوَّجْنَاهُم بِحُورٍ عِينٍ Yes, wed those young virgin girls.
55:72 Fair ones [hourun], close-guarded in pavilions -[17] حُورٌ مَقْصُورَاتٌ فِي الْخِيَامِ
56:22 And (there are) fair ones [hourun] with wide, lovely eyes,[17] وَحُورٌ عِينٌ
78:31, 78:32, 78:33 Lo! for the duteous is achievement, Gardens enclosed and vineyards, And voluptuous women of equal age;[17] إِنَّ لِلْمُتَّقِينَ مَفَازًا وَكَوَاعِبَ أَتْرَابًا حَدَائِقَ وَأَعْنَابًا
56:35, 56:36 Lo! We have created them a (new) creation, And made them virgins[17] إِنَّا أَنشَأْنَاهُنَّ إِنشَاء فَجَعَلْنَاهُنَّ أَبْكَارًا
55:56 Therein are those of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them.[17] فِيهِنَّ قَاصِرَاتُ الطَّرْفِ لَمْ يَطْمِثْهُنَّ إِنسٌ قَبْلَهُمْ وَلَا جَانٌّ
NO ONE WILL WALK AWAY FROM THIS THINKING LITTLE GIRLS ARE GOING TO BE WED WHO ARE NOT VIRGINS. ISLAMIC HEAVEN IS A PLACE FOR MEN TO HAVE SEX WITH THEIR EARTHLY WIVES AND NEWLY FORMED VIRGINS THAT ARE GIVEN TO THEM.
Muslim men who die as martyrs (fighting in battle or other deaths) are promised 72 (or sometimes 73) beautiful, black-eyed perpetual virgins as wives in heaven. - And they have their regular wives on earth still tagging along too. This short page is simply a brief description of what the hadiths say about these heavenly virgins, called "houris".
In them will be fair (Maidens), good, beautiful;-
... Maidens restrained (as to their glances), in (goodly) pavilions;-
... Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;-
Sura 55:70,72,74
According to Ibn Kathir (died 1373 CE ) in his Koranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72:
"The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]'."
--- In heaven believers will have wives called "houris". ---
Bukhari vol.4:544 p.343: "Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, 'The first group of people who will enter Paradise, ... Their wives will be houris. All of them [Muslim men] will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in stature), sixty cubits tall."
--- Houris do not want wives to annoy their husbands, since the houris will also be the spouses [i.e. wives] of the husbands in the afterlife. ---"Mu'adh b. Jobal (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, 'A woman does not annoy her husband but his spouse from amongst the maidens with wide eyes intensely white and deeply black will say: Do not annoy him, may Allah ruin you." He is with you as a passing guest. Very soon, he will part with you and come to us.'" Ibn-i-Majah vol.3:2014 p.212
According to some Shi'ites (not Sunnis), Fatima became a houri of Heaven. All the Muslims in Heaven will have as many houris as wives as they wish, except that 'Ali would have no other wife than Fatima. Some see a similarity between the veneration of Fatima and the Roman Catholic veneration of the virgin Mary. Fatima was been called "the mother of her father" by 12'er Shi'ites, (Encyclopedia of Islam vol.2 p.845-846),
Beautiful Women in Heaven
Houris have intensely black irises and intense whiteness of their eyes. They are very beautiful. Bukhari vol.4 chapter 6 p.41 and vol.4:53 p.42.
Bukhari vol.4:468-469 p.307-308 speaks of a group of believers who will have two wives; "the marrow of the bones of the wives' legs will be seen through the flesh out of excessive beauty." (vol.4:468). "...and everyone of them shall have two wives, each of whom will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the flesh." (vol.4:469)
Mention of the hope of maidens of paradise after martyrdom. "Yet, by God, I feel happy for what we shall soon meet, for, by God, if all there is between us and the maidens of Paradise (ah-hur al-'ayn) is that these people should come against us with their swords, then I want them to come against us with their swords." al-Tabari vol.19 p.121
This proves that references to these in the Qur'an are "heavenly maidens", not "white raisins" as some from Germany have speculated.
SOMEONE CERTAINLY HAS NO IDEA AT ALL OF WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.
https://www.atheistrepublic.com/comment/155265/edit
@Cognostic
Wikipedia is not a source.
That seems like a rather obvious attempt at trolling. I think you should explain yourself; before someone comes to that conclusion.
@Leper - Where do you see anything written above using Wikipedia as a source? There is not one citation in anything above that cites Wikipedia. None.
YOUR IGNORANCE is UNBOUNDED:
Virgins in Islam:
The houris are beings in Islamic religion, described in English translations as "and splendid companions of equal age [or well-matched]", "lovely eyed", of "modest gaze" and virgins who will accompany the faithful in Jannah (Muslim paradise)
56:35, 56:36 Lo! We have created them a (new) creation, And made them virgins[17] إِنَّا أَنشَأْنَاهُنَّ إِنشَاء فَجَعَلْنَاهُنَّ أَبْكَارً
Al-Hasan Al-Basri says that an old woman came to the messenger of Allah and made a request, O’ Messenger of Allah make Dua that Allah grants me entrance into Jannah. The messenger of Allah replied, O’ Mother, an old woman cannot enter Jannah. That woman started crying and began to leave. The messenger of Allah said, Say to the woman that one will not enter in a state of old age, but Allah will make all the women of Jannah young virgins. Allah Ta’aala says, Lo! We have created them a (new) creation and made them virgins, lovers, equal in age. (DON'T YOU GET TIRED OF BEING DEMONSTRABLY WRONG!!!)
— Al-Tirmidhi, Jami` at-Tirmidhi (Surah Waaqi’ah, 35–37).[33]
We have created (their Companions) of special creation.
And made them virgin—pure (and undefiled) — Quran, sura 56 (Al-Waqia), ayat 35-36[37]
Ibn Kathir says that the houris "are delightful virgins of comparable age who never had sexual intercourse with anyone, whether from mankind or Jinns, before their husbands."[39] by commenting, "in the other life, after they became old in this life, they were brought back while virgin, youthful, being delightfully passionate with their husbands, beautiful, kind and cheerful."[40] Ibn Kathir also stated that Muhammad confirmed that there would be sexual intercourse in Paradise.[30]
The Arabic word isn't "virgin".
@Leper Re: "The Arabic word isn't "virgin"."
Sooooo.... You are saying there is another translation/interpretation for the same word that also means "whore"?... Or maybe "little boys"? (No, wait. That would be the Catholics.) Oh, okay! I give up. What does the word really mean?
@Tin-Man: What does the word really mean?
Grapes.
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/04/opinion/martyrs-virgins-and-grapes.html
@Algebe Re: Grapes
Well.... Alrighty then... Wow, 72 grapes. And they have to last for all eternity??? Damn... Talk about strict rationing. Eeek!
@LeperL "The Arabic word isn't "virgin" .NO SHIT! The Arabic word is right there above your head along with several citations from hadith that agree. THE WORD IS 'VIRGIN' IN ENGLISH. Unless of course you prefer mindless submissive pure sex Zombie that you can do as you wish with.
Cognostic's picture
@Leper: "The Arabic word is not Grapes" This is an Islamic apologetic strategy. When you go to Islamic heaven you get big breasted, wide eyed, virgins. This is supported throughout the Quaran and the Hadith.
The houris (/ˈhʊəriz/;[1] from Persian: حُـورِی, ḥūrī; plural of ḥaurāʾ or ḥūrīyah;[note 1] Arabic: حُـورِيَّـة) are beings in Islamic religion, described in English translations as "and splendid companions of equal age [or well-matched]",[2][3] "lovely eyed",[4] of "modest gaze"[5] and virgins[6] who will accompany the faithful in Jannah (Muslim paradise).[7]
The houris are mentioned in SEVERAL PASSAGES of the Quran, always in plural form. No specifics are ever given, though, as to the NUMBER of houris that should be available to each believer.
As for the gender of the houris, it has traditionally been believed that they are beautiful women and a reward for believing men,[8] with numerous hadith and tafsir describing them as such.[9]
THE 72 VIRGIN PASSAGE MAY VERY WELL MEAN GRAPES OR RAISINS, THAT DOES NOTHING AT ALL TO CHANGE THE FACE OF ISLAMIC HEAVEN WHERE EVERY MAN GETS TO HAVE HIS EARTHY WIVES AS WELL AS VIRGIN, DARK EYED, BIG BREASTED, HEAVENLY COMPANIONS. STORIES OF VIRGIN COMPANIONS FOR THE MEN ARE REPLETE THROUGHOUT THE QUARAN AND HADITH.
It wasn't me who brought up raisins or grapes.
You still haven't opened the dictionary? Are you frightened of being wrong?
I didn't see any word in Arabic. I must have missed it. But it still doesn't mean "virgin".
Oh by the way, a quick Google search could tell you that. Isn't this 'your work' now, according to your logic?
@Leper: TROLL - If you had any facts of evidence at all it would have been presented. Your position is untenable. MODS - THIS IS SIMPLY TROLLING One inane assertion after another. Refusal to respond to questions. Refusal to cite references. Assertion Assertion Assertion. NO EFFORT WHAT SO EVER TO DEBATE ANY KIND OF AN ISSUE. NONE. NO EFFORT AT ALL TO PROVIDE FACTS OR EVIDENCE FOR THE INANE ASSERTIONS BEING MADE. TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL TROLL.
THERE ARE NO ELEMENTS OF DEBATE IN ANYTHING GOING ON HERE.
I think you have an anger management problem. Is it an atheist thing or just your personal characteristic unrelated to that you have no God?
So you want me to tell you what the word means even though you don't bother to reference me to the sources of the information you tried to provide regarding foods with pork in it?
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