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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. That was tangible.
Also, as a believer I observe God's existence constantly.
"Was" is not the same as "Is".
Again, you know full well that atheists are not believers, so these statements cannot both be used to get you of demonstrating that "The evidence is abundant and obvious":
"The evidence is abundant and obvious, but you choose to deny it." & "as a believer I observe God's existence constantly".
You also cannot use your belief as proof that the evidence is "abundant and obvious" and that atheists "choose to deny it". Having a belief or lack of belief has no bearing on the validity of the evidence: the onus is still on you to present it if you are arguing for a position that requires it.
Evidence does not present itself only to those who you agree with. Truth is no respecter of persons.
Again, I'm not trying to provide any proof of God to you. I'm not an evidentialist -- get over it.
"Evidence does not present itself only to those who you agree with. Truth is no respecter of persons."
You think science deals with truth?
The thread itself isn't strictly about attempting to prove god's existence, although it is notable that you have not done so despite you claiming it is easy to do so. The claims you made about what atheists believe have already been shown to be false.
Science is an inanimate subject. The scientific method concerns itself with topics such as falsifiability, hypotheses, levels of confidence etc.
@Watchman TC: Did you hear the good news? Some small town in Kansas has reported losing their village idiot. I took the liberty of calling them and telling them that it might be here. Once again, you are the only one on the site that knows the true meaning of the word atheist. Thanks once again for setting us straight. We will give the assertion all the attention it deserves.
Okay, now that we have set that aside lets move on.
"If you wish to have a rational worldview, then it requires a view that the universe has either eternally existed or came into existence at some point."
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ...... ROFLMAO....
Make a choice you silly atheists..... you have to choose. It is either eternal or it had a beginning. Well, unless there are other options about which we know nothing. It is so unfortunate that physics breaks down at Planck Time so that NOTHING AT ALL MAKES ANY SENSE. Instead of simply admitting that we have no idea, we should choose. ETERNAL or CAME INTO EXISTENCE. We should simply believe in our assertion and have faith.... Just like a religion. We should stop avoiding FACTS, LOGIC, and REASON, and simply assert that we know for a fact how the universe came into existence or that it is eternal. THERE ARE NO OTHER CHOICES.
THANK YOU FOR SHARING ANOTHER MORONIC CONCLUSION. We really appreciate you around here. We are so tired of wallowing in darkness. The light of your intelligence is a real eye opener. Most of us probably never would have considered a created or eternal universe without you. We would just listen to the cosmologists who assert that they really don't yet know.
@Watchman TC
Believing that Yahweh created the universe is no more rational than believing a magical banana created the universe.
There is no reason to think that any alleged creator of the universe was itself eternal, and had no creator.
In what sense is your viewpoint rational?
"In what sense is your viewpoint rational?"
Only the Christian worldview provides an epistemic basis for rationality itself. Your worldview provides absolutely no foundation for even regarding the phenomenon of rational thought as trustworthy, let alone the intelligibility of human experience.
In other words, you have no basis for even caring about rationality.
That said, I know you do care about rationality. You care about justice, too, and love, and reason, and lots of good and perfect gifts you've received from your Creator. You're happy to use these gifts, but then you shun the giver of them. You're like a child who crawls up on his father's lap to slap him in the face.
Could you define the Christian viewpoint, and why you feel that only that can give any grounding for rationality?
Again, atheism simply means a lack of belief in the existence of gods. It does not require an explicit viewpoint. It also only relates to one aspect, and something that may not even exist: your problem is that you think a belief in the existence of a being equates to a comprehensive philosophy. It is absurd as a person who says "Only the magical banana worldview provides an epistemic basis for rationality itself".
I suspect if Christ had produce a singularly original and exclusively rational perspective, he wouldn't have felt the need to quote from Aesop's Fables.
I see you are still making assumptions, this time about what I care about.
If my father carried out genocide and torture, it would admittedly be difficult not to slap him in the face, but hopefully, I would refrain from doing so.
"atheism simply means a lack of belief in the existence of gods. It does not require an explicit viewpoint"
I'm not here to talk about the definition of atheism. I'm here to talk about the worldview held by atheists. Deal with your beliefs honestly, and you can start by admitting that you have them.
"Could you define the Christian viewpoint, and why you feel that only that can give any grounding for rationality?"
The Christian worldview is defined by the Bible, and it's all about the true and living triune God who created mankind upright and with free will -- the ability to freely choose between good and evil -- but mankind fell from God's righteousness and brought corruption and death into the world. But God, in His loving mercy, gave His Son to redeem sinners from the justice they deserve and offer them everlasting life rather than destruction.
What we find in that worldview is an eternal being, God, who possesses not only attributes that include rationality, which He passed on to us, but loving relationship. Without God being within Himself the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, He would not be able to truly possess these attributes nor demonstrate them in history.
Attempting to judge God as a murderer and torturer is category error, and quite a demonstration of overblown pride.
As has already been told to you many times, other than that lack of belief, there is no common worldview held by atheists. That has been one of your assumptions. If you want to ask what views I have independently of my lack of belief in the existence of gods, I suggest you create a new thread with mind in mind, although you should substantiate your statements in the OP in this thread.
Actually, there are countless Christian sects who would disagree with your assessment of what the Christian worldview is.
Good and evil can only exist if you are an objectively moral being. It is better for a person to follow their own conscience rather than what someone else says is moral.
A person should be responsible for their actions, in proportion to which they are liable for them. Anything else would be immoral, in my view. Torturing anyone for any length of time is immoral in my view, and not the actions of a loving being.
It is impossible to prove that a being is eternal, so you are certainly making an assumption. I didn't say god was a murderer and torturer: I don't believe God exists. However, if I tell someone that it is wrong to kill, even though I kill myself, that would make me a hypocrite.
Why would it would be wrong to say a person who kills whole groups people has engaged in genocide? Why would it be wrong to say that a person who carries out torture is a torturer?
"there is no common worldview held by atheists"
I'm here to talk to individual atheists about their individual worldviews. Let's talk about yours.
"what views I have independently of my lack of belief in the existence of gods"
My premise is that your lack of belief in the existence of God leads to all sorts of error, and these are what I'd like to talk about.
"Actually, there are countless Christian sects who would disagree with your assessment of what the Christian worldview is."
Calling yourself a fish doesn't make you a fish. I gave you the biblical Christian worldview.
"that would make me a hypocrite."
If you created the universe and mankind, and told your human creatures not to kill themselves, you would not be a hypocrite for destroying any aspects of your creation. Your big problem with this sort of thinking is that you attempt to put yourself in the place of God. That's crazy-talk.
No, you are here to make assumptions about what all atheists believe, as demonstrated by your OP. You are not interested in defending your position. If you were interested in what individual atheists believe, you would have started a thread with that particular topic mentioned.
You still haven't presented any evidence in order to demonstrate that any error has happened on the part of atheists.
"what views I have independently of my lack of belief in the existence of gods"
My premise is that your lack of belief in the existence of God leads to all sorts of error, and these are what I'd like to talk about.
"Actually, there are countless Christian sects who would disagree with your assessment of what the Christian worldview is."
If...
you still haven't presented any evidence of your claims. Let's reject your conjecture and start from there.
The bible says that god created humans in his image. Killing humans could arguably be murder, although I actually mentioned genocide, not murder. One set of the Ten Commandments actually say "Thou shall not kill"...it doesn't specify any species.
As wikipedia says:
"The Hebrew verb רצח (r-ṣ-ḥ, also transliterated retzach, ratzákh, ratsakh etc.) is the word in the original text that is translated as "murder" , but it has a wider range of meanings, generally describing destructive activity, including meanings "to break, to dash to pieces" as well as "to slay, kill, murder"."
thus by your own admission, god breaks its own commandment when it carries out acts of destruction.
You still haven't attempted to explain how calling god a torturer for engaging in torture is a category error.
I do not attempt to put myself in the place of god. There is no evidence that god exists and there is no place that needs god. I am also superior to your god.
Talk about ad hom and off-topic diversions.
Following your tactic: Please be specific.
All you're doing now is diverting the discussion to be about me rather than the topic at hand, which is your worldview that develops from your atheistic presupposition. Making the debate about me rather than the topic is called ad hominem.
I don't seek to have a debate about you and how you're behaving, however -- I'm here to talk about your worldview, which you've decided stop at your non-belief in deities.
So look: If you don't want to talk about your worldview that I claim stems from your atheistic presupposition, that's fine. Typically, when people don't want to partake in a particular discussion, they just go away.
In your OP, you've already stated what the atheist worldview is, that apparently all atheists hold. If you already know, then what actually is the point of this thread?
Your OP is full of unfounded ad hominems - that was the "debate" you made.
He doesn't like it when we're on-topic, and he doesn't like it when we're on-topic to his off-topic...
To be clear, I like it when you're on-topic.
And then we have a Presuppositional apologist.
Obviously. Have you listened to the debate between Bahnsen and Stein?
No.
You might learn something if you do.
Watchman TC, in your OP you wrote, “Religion doesn't require belief in deity. Take Buddhism, for example. Atheism is a pagan religion without a deity. The idols of atheism are idols to creaturely things, especially the one the atheist sees in the mirror.”
It sounds like you might be mixing up religion and a/theism. You are correct that religion does not require a deity. However, you then say atheism is a religion. Religions consist of organizations with sets of tenets and memberships. A/theism is the consideration of only one proposition = the theist says god(s) exist, the atheist says they do not accept that. There are theists who are not religious. There are atheists who are.
I am identified as atheist because I do not accept the proposition that gods exist. (Please do not mix this up with an assertion that gods do not exist.) Does that effect my worldview? Yes. But probably not in the way you seem to assume it does. It shapes my worldview in that I do not organize my life around the supernatural. That’s it...in a nut shell. Any other views I may hold are arrived at individually...not via a set of tenets.
Shall we debate this? This is, after all, a debate forum.
"Shall we debate this?"
Of course!
"Religions consist of organizations with sets of tenets and memberships."
Fact is, the definition of "religion" is quite fluid. But to your point, maybe you should check out some atheist organizations such as American Atheists, the Satanic Temple and the American Humanist Association. These groups would be happy to have you on their membership rolls, and also to send you their literature on their tenets.
"views I may hold are arrived at individually"
What gives you so much confidence in yourself to do that?
Quilting guilds have what could be called tenets, are they religions? Yes, there are organizations of atheists. I wonder if those folks organize their entire lives around this one proposition. Maybe some do. Would I call them religious? Maybe. You seem to be asserting that ALL folks identified as atheist are religious. Correct? If so, then I disagree and would ask you to provide a very specific definition and evidence that all folks who are identified as atheist fit it.
What gives me the confidence in myself to arrive at the views I currently hold? Hmmm...I’ve never considered that. I suppose it depends on the view. For instance, I hold the view that when it’s 30 degrees Fahrenheit outside it is cold because my body reacts in a way that confirms it. I hold the view that sexual assault of children is immoral, in part, because I have empathy for the victims. I hold the view that the second movement of Beethoven’s ninth symphony is the finest piece of music ever written because I experience a visceral reaction to it. I also am able to understand that these things are specific to me as I am autonomous.
"You seem to be asserting that ALL folks identified as atheist are religious."
Nay, I'm asserting that ALL folks are religious, and the atheists are the ones who deny their faith.
"I hold the view that sexual assault of children is immoral, in part, because I have empathy for the victims."
Where does that empathy come from?
"I am autonomous."
That means you act according to self-rule alone. Do you think the perpetrator of sexual assault of children is autonomous too?
Watchman TC, you wrote, “Nay, I'm asserting that ALL folks are religious, and the atheists are the ones who deny their faith.”
Please provide a very specific definition of ‘religious’ and ‘faith’ so I am able to better respond.
“Where does that empathy come from?”
From my brain.
"That means you act according to self-rule alone. Do you think the perpetrator of sexual assault of children is autonomous too?”
Yes.
We're all religious because we're all created as image-bearers of God, with a soul and spirit made to know Him. Believers in false religions are confused, while atheists are willfully disabled.
Blind faith is to believe without sufficient reason, while biblical faith is to believe based on the unmediated awareness of the truth.
Almost all the atheists I interact with are moral relativists. Do you believe in an objective moral standard, or do you think it's all subjective and up to you to define for yourself? You know, as an autonomous being.
As to your first paragraph = what would you provide to demonstrate this as true?
As to your second paragraph = what, precisely, is an ‘unmediated awareness of the truth’?
As to you third paragraph = as was said by someone far smarter than I, my right to swing my arm ends right before your nose starts. I imagine most folks identified as atheist would agree. Is that moral relativism? I don’t think so.
Question for you = do you follow all the rules outlined in your holy book?
"what would you provide to demonstrate this as true?"
I can't provide anything to you to demonstrate that it's true, because, as I described, you're spiritually disabled. Your condition isn't hopeless, however -- it's just not up to me.
"what, precisely, is an ‘unmediated awareness of the truth’?"
I really don't understand what's confusing about that. It means direct knowledge of what is true about God. You have this knowledge too, but you suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
"my right to swing my arm ends right before your nose starts"
So your rights are limited, meaning you're hardly autonomous.
"Is that moral relativism? I don’t think so."
Since you're not answering my question directly, I'm forced to conclude that you do believe in an objective moral standard, at least as far as this point about arm-swinging goes. If that's the case, what about people who disagree with you? Are they just wrong, and you're just right about this objective moral point?
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