You've got faith (ding)
Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
Log in or create an account to join the discussions on the Atheist Republic forums.
I can't prove to you that you're suppressing the truth -- this is the nature of your self-delusion (Cognostic learned about this term in his psychotherapist training program). The truth is something you can only discover once you repent of your sins so you can see clearly.
@Sapporo: Now now Sapporo - be nice to watchman. He has stepped onto an atheist site and has been brave enough to share all his moronic assertions with the class. We need to encourage him and not just shut him down. It's perfectly okay that he does not have any evidence or facts to back up his claims. That which can be asserted without evidence can be rejected without evidence. We know this. Remember he has been relying on personal experience, a magical man in the sky who wrote a book and baby Jesus for comfort his entire life. If we rip all that away from him, he thinks he will be lost. He will have no morality. He will not be able to use logic. He will have no love. All of these things come from hims magical man in the sky. So we must be patient and allow him to express himself. In fact, encourage him to get all the bullshit out of his system. It will be good for him and his personal growth as he transitions out of the world of fantasy and into reality.
You've got a shovel all right.
It seems you have crafted a worldview, then demanded that atheists endorse it.
As I pointed out before, atheists don't really have enough in common for that to be helpful. As we saw before, you told us atheists have a supernatural belief in a force called Chance. We'll I know plenty of atheist who don't even believe there is such as thing as chance.
There is no atheist worldview. There are different worldviews held by different atheists, but they differ from atheist to atheist. Atheism is a pretty broad tent.
"atheists don't really have enough in common for that to be helpful"
I agree that you're not helpful, but you certainly have a lot in common.
"I know plenty of atheist who don't even believe there is such as thing as chance."
I'd like to have a conversation with one of them. The only one who professed such a belief here ended up contradicting himself.
"There is no atheist worldview."
Indeed, but there is a type of worldview that's precipitated by atheism. Check my OP, where I describe this.
"they differ from atheist to atheist."
Yes, atheists can be divided into a few different sects.
just some examples:
I know atheists who believe the future is written in stone (I mean no free will, pure determinism, you get the idea).
I know atheists who believe in ghosts, alien abductions, sin, psychic powers, the power of magic (like casting spell, etc), big foot, creation (that life was created on Earth by aliens), life after death, reincarnation, and lots of other odd stuff.
Yeah -- and I'd like to have a conversation with them. When I'm talking to you, I want to talk about your worldview. I'm not interested in talking about a third-party worldview, since that would involve speculation.
Then you probably should have asked about my worldview, instead of assigning me (and all other atheists) one.
Do you believe that life emerged naturally from a system of non-living matter at some point in the past?
I don't know how life got started on the Earth. Perhaps it happened the way you describe, perhaps it didn't.
So much for a conversation, eh?
@Watchman TC: The atheist's supernatural belief is in an imaginary force called Chance, which he believes brought about the universe and all life.
And the theist's supernatural belief is that anything beyond his limited understanding must surpass all understanding past, present, and future, and therefore god. I can't imagine anything more arrogant. The only people whom I've heard talking about chance in this context are creationists. Can you even define "chance"?
Your spiritual ancestors would have attributed earthquakes to Poseidon and lightning to Zeus because they didn't understand them. Today you're applying the same flawed logic by attributing the origins of the universe and life to Jehovah.
Atheism is not a religion. It's simply a lack of belief in gods. It's also a refusal to accept ignorance in the name of the god of the gaps.
"I can't imagine anything more arrogant"
I submit to God's wisdom over my own understanding regarding spiritual matters, and you find this to be arrogant? You're projecting.
"attributing the origins of the universe and life to Jehovah."
You attribute origins to Chance, which is a manmade construct.
"a refusal to accept ignorance in the name of the god of the gaps."
I'm no god-of-the-gaps guy. I like science when used properly, and I reject any philosophy masquerading as science.
You claim that you're ignorant of any evidence of God, and you assert that everyone else is ignorant too. The first part is ignorant, indeed, but the second part springs from arrogance. Not everyone is in the dark with you.
@Watchman TC I submit to God's wisdom over my own understanding regarding spiritual matters, and you find this to be arrogant? You're projecting.
Rubbish. Do you regard cosmology and biology as "spiritual matters"? Your arrogance lies in your assumption that what you can't understand, nobody can, and therefore god must have done it. Your god is nothing more than the personified projection of your own ignorance and arrogance.
You attribute origins to Chance, which is a manmade construct.
I said nothing of the kind. Let's keep the discussion honest.
I like science when used properly
By "properly", do you mean when the conclusions of science match your own preconceived notions?
You claim that you're ignorant of any evidence of God, and you assert that everyone else is ignorant too.
Again you're putting words in my mouth.
That is is an attempt to insert your fictional unevidenced deity into a gap in our knowledge about how the universe came to exist, by creating a false dichotomy fallacy, that in order to disbelieve your bronze age superstition's risible creation myth, one must posit the universe came about by chance, which is irrational nonsense of course. As one can admit the truth that we don't fully know how the universe came to exist, and still disbelieve the risible unevidenced creation myths that claim a deity did it.
Best of all, since chance is defined as "the occurrence of events in the absence of any obvious intention or cause." This also indicates your use of a god of the gaps argument, and an argumentum ad ingorantiam fallacy,, unless you can demonstrate any objective evidence for a cause of course? Otherwise all you're doing is using a lame attempt to reverse the burden of proof inherent in your belief. After 6 pages of your rhetoric I think we can all infer the reason you have not demonstrated such evidence.
Please do demonstrate the best piece of objective evidence you claim to have then? Or this is just another example of the vapid rhetoric you keep using.
@ the mods
Watchman TC posts and turns of phrase bear a very strong resemblance to one Breezy.....as do his various evasions and interminable arguments.
@Old man shouts
Same non-sense but out of a new mouth. It is very unlikely they are the same; but I can't say why because posting personal information of another user, even a banned one, is not allowed (for good reason!).
Thanks. The coincidences were piling up.
But I do understand the same delusions of intellectual superiority can afflict many suffering from male menopausal symptoms, especially in new cult members.
Thanks for your prompt attention.
Phew! Glad to see it wasn't just my imagination. I was also starting to think our new WatchmanTC sounds awfully familiar. Too bad it's not Breezy, though, because it is disturbing to think there are actually others like him out there... *shudder*....
Watchman seems not to be interested in debating at all. He consistently refuses to provide evidence and accuses us of "being willfully blind". If a Muslim were to talk about Djinn, he would demand the same standard of evidence as us.
He says we go off-topic, but when i talk about the eternal torment promised in John 3 (18-20), he asks me about the justice system in my country.
He is an hypocrite, nothing more.
Yeah, I've been following the thread, and after seeing all the same avoidance tactics and veiled insults we've all seen countless times, I prefer not to give Mr. WatchmanTC the time of day. Like I told him in my first two responses, he isn't worth my time nor effort. He said it himself that he is here to "spread the gospel" (aka: Preach) to our lost and souless heathen asses. Hell, if I wanted that, I would just go to the church down the street... *chuckle*...
As for me, it is not like i was baptized , and went to catechism... Also, there is a bible in the living room of my mother. Ass for our asses, i do like the heathen characteristic of my butt!
@Watchman TC Original post.
Okay I will play. Scanned through the thread and saw you like brevity instead of long detailed post so I will skip the long post best as I can. As this thread is over 100 replies I will always reply on the bottom instead of replying in the middle with an @Watchman TC and blockquotes.
Since you prefer brevity feel free to respond which area you want more detail on. I will try to keep this as short as your original OP that I read.
Faith in what? You don't specify, leaving me to guess. Based on previous encounters with other religious apologist I am guessing you mean faith in hard repeatable tangible evidence?
A not so subtle jab there, what are you angry about? Or perhaps more accurately, scared about?
I will tell you now quoting various bible/religious text are the quickest way to get me to bow out of a debate/conversation. The bible/religious text themselves never claim to be a source rigorous fact checked authority on anything. And every religious apologist I ever got into an extended debate about their religious text have eventually admitted it no book of facts to be taken literally. (Well except a few but I find most apologist want to distance themselves from those folks.)
Who is david and why is his supposed edited and translated writings supposed to be recognized by me as a knowledgeable authority on anything?
I assume this is some sort of line based off of first mover/teleological argument etc. More advanced religious apologist have abandoned this particular argument a while ago due to its many glaringly obvious flaws. I actually spend probably too much time pondering if there is "chance" at all or if things are predetermined just the amount of complexity and interaction gives us the illusion of free will.
Are you suggesting you do know the truth and atheist do not? If so, are you suggesting you know the truth based on what other people told you and what you have read?
Are you saying your particular god concept you ascribe to requires same or less "imagination, fantasy and faith?"
That is incorrect. The first amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." While public tax funded schools is not mentioned here, this should be easy for anyone to understand why schools avoid teaching religions all together. Schools do not teach "atheist religion" 5 days a week and exclude all other religions. This sounds like fear mongering to me.
What made you stop being an atheist at 43? I am always curious the reasoning people come up with, especially someone that lived as you claim. Also you say "unbelievers" instead of atheist, did you mean atheist or did just not believe in the same religion you currently believe in?
▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
How much longer are we willing to put up with this presuppositional trolling nonsense?
Each of us has the choice to do so as long as we wish.
It is quite satisfying to "debate" with such people for some time.
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: non-belief, non-theism, disbelief, unbelief, scepticism, doubt, agnosticism, irreligion, godlessness, ungodliness, profaneness, impiety, heresy, apostasy, paganism, heathenism, freethinking, nihilism
The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
Describing atheism as a religion is asinine semantics.
I always find this type of "argument" funny. You want to label atheism "religion" or a "faith-based" position, so that if we atheists claim that theists' positions are "wrong" then that makes atheism just as "wrong." I've never, ever seen an atheist take this tack. That is, stating that religion/theism is something very much like atheism. And do you know why? Because that would be an insult to the intelligence of atheists everywhere.
But here you are, you and your theist brethren, thinking yourselves oh so clever for marrying atheism to theism in just such a way. I've been trying to figure out why it is that none of you find it insulting, and instead think it's a barrel of laughs. And I think it has to do with how unsure you are in your position. Just like the "misery loves company" saying. You just want everyone to be as incorrect as you are so that no one has anything to hold over anyone else's head. Kind of like getting someone in a crime-ring to get in on illegal activities so that no one will squeal. Yeah - it's kind of deplorable.
Why don’t we convince each other that Jesus is our lord and saviour through love. Love, man. Spread love, not logic.
I personally come here to express thoughts about my penis. And to also listen to other’s thoughts about theirs.
Now when it’s time to convert people to Christianity, I go door to door with copies of “The Watchtower” in my nice $200 dollar suit.
That’s how Jesus told us to spread the good word. He didn’t tell us to have a debate with non-believers over the web. We’ve got to get together and feel all right. Smoke some herb and sing songs of freedom. Not hate and disagreement; judgement-
Spread that wild, monkey love - like you just peeled a banana and your about to eat it and you see a woman down the street who looks hungry. What do you do? Do you offer her your banana; or do you preach sin and repentance.
(For the record; Jesus is an asshole. I know him personally and he’s bipolar as fuck. The only time he feels stable is when people are worshipping him. We keep saying “come down from the cross”. But does he listen?)
@Rat Spit Re: "Spread that wild, monkey love - like you just peeled a banana and your about to eat it and you see a woman down the street who looks hungry. What do you do? Do you offer her your banana; or do you preach sin and repentance."
...*sniffle-sniffle*... *dabbing tears from corners of eyes*... Wow, Ratty... That was beautiful, man... *sniffle-sniffle*... Got me a little choked up there for a minute. Almost makes me think the BYB may actually be the true path. But my precious Blue Bunny (CBUH) is so cute, and fluffy, and snuggly... *anguished voice*... How do I simply turn away and abandon that??? I feel like my world is suddenly turning upside down!... *tears streaming from eyes*... What should I do?... What should I dooooooo?... *sob-sob-sob*...