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"you are still bound to the urge to breed, I'm not and that may play a role in our difference in attitude about death."
It does, but I always try to be unbiased about it.
"a threat has to be perceived. Death is not always a threat."
When is death not a threat?
It maybe a lesser evil, or a merciful thing for people suffering but it will be always considered a threat. Part of your brain will always consider it as a threat, though you might control that fear and accept it anyway.
If there is a better solution we will always choose that solution instead of death.
"I do not consider death an unknown." What happens to your conscious being after death? It is an Unknown even if you won't acknowledge it.
"I'd ask you not to make the mistake of applying that notion to everyone else."
Are you implying that you don't want to live long enough to see your grand children and their children?
Or to see some new innovation or technology.
Don't you think that living is better then dying?
If you prefer living, you MUST fear that death will stop you from living.
If you prefer dying, then you won't be reading this post.
It is really that simple.
People prefer to live and experience new things in life, thus they fear that death will take that from them.
"Not fearing my ineluctable end simply does not mean that I always behave in a manner to hasten it."
They are not different, both have the same result, DEATH.
One is though accidental early death and the other is death of old age.
What if technology finds a way to avoid death?
Would you dare claim that it is "the natural order of things" when you haven't yet experience something different yet?
Everybody reading this forum fears death in a way or an other, that is as true as saying;
Everybody reading this forum can read.
Both are arrogant claims both both are true.
And no i don't know anything about your emotions but I do know some very basic stuff about you:
You can read,
You prefer to live rather then die currently
You fear to die before reading this, even if you don't know it.
Accepting your death is not the same as not fearing it. "Let that sink in."
Well, Jeff, it's been an interesting debate. We are at an impasse however, since you continue to insist you know me (and everyone else in this post who says they do not fear their own deaths) better than I (we) do and I insist you do not. Shall we just call it a day on this one then?
See you on the flip side for the next interesting debate...
Sure we can call it a day.
However I don't know you, i just know some very basic things about you, that's all.
I'm afraid of the process of dying, but not afraid of death itself. Billions of years passed before I was born and I was blissfully unaware, I don't suspect that the other side of death is going to be any different than it was before my birth. I enjoy being alive and well so tend not to invite death, but understand fully that it's part of the cycle of life.
Alright I actually was one of those people on here the said I fear death, but I must assert that not everyone does.
Even if you consider death to be the unknown and I actually have way more questions about it after going through near death once than I did before going through it. Before going through it I was I can honestly say I was less afraid of it. I want to approach this subject of the unknown..
I can't be certain what happens after my own experience because well I'm back. But before it, I thought mostly that I would just cease to exist fall into the void and all consciousness would be gone and returned to the cosmic cycle, I had my doubts. but felt pretty much after death I would simply cease to exist. Here is the funny part after my near death experience I actually have more doubts not less. Wherever I was be it a shutting down mind and body at the time it was peaceful, there was no pain there. It was as if pain taste and all that was a memory. That's all I know for sure, but I was not there long does it remain peaceful? Was I just fading? Was I really dead? What was this place? Why did my time there seem so long? Was it as people call Limbo? How could I travel so fast there? How was thinking so crystal clear there memories and all? Would I stay with no pain? Pain seemed to return on my way back to life. Are there other pains one can encounter out of body? Would I just be alone with myself there for all eternity? Can you come back to life as another form? Why when I asked where I was, was I all of sudden above my body with it below me? Was I simply tripping? The questions go on and on and on, on and on... I have now come to the conclusion after all this and many years of pondering the more I think about it the more questions I will come up with and I will never really know until I'm really dead and won't be coming back and even then maybe not.
All this said though, people tend to, as has been pointed out, fear the Unknown, I feel I am past that and rather I fear the loss of what I do know. If where I was was all there was how long could I hold on to that I love?, How long could I stay there before all was lost? Before all my memories would be forgotten, I know to some this could sound great, like a chance to make a world or exactly how you want it to be alone in your mind, but how long could this last maybe forever maybe just a short time, I do know guilt and joy seemed amplified there, wherever there was, For now I want to stick to the unknown part.
There lies a problem of asserting that all people fear death based on the unknown, I would argue some would embrace it. Some would, others well not so much but even if we call death the great unknown and do so because we really don't know what comes next, Many people are quite convinced to the point of suicidal tendencies that they know exactly what comes next and some feel in death they will be assured a very particular outcome. The fact is no one knows but some people think they do and they are so sure of it even if they are wrong, they have removed all doubt.
I am just saying if you feel ALL people fear death because they fear the unknown, your wrong.
"I am just saying if you feel ALL people fear death because they fear the unknown, your wrong."
peole fear death not only because it is an unknown, that is true.
But part of their fear is because it is an unknown.
The problem ies in defining the unknown(which I overlooked a bit)
Most people think that many known things are unknown. That is why they claim that they don't fear the unknown.
Of coarse they are wrong because they don't understand what an unknown is.
EG:
Rolling a dice is considered an unknown by most people.
Simply is not true.
We know a lot about the outcome of those dies.
One of the things we know is that the outcome won't kill you or harm you.
An unknown is something that have never been tested before, like trying out an experimental para-shoot.
Fear is part of the human psych and doubt creates that fear and more questions.
Death is an unknown since we don't know what wil happen to us after, so our minds starts to create questions and doubt, that accumulates to fear.
One might accept this or ignore it, but if one thinks about it, the fear your brain generates is always there, it has a say in your decision. (it doesn't mean that your fear will overcome your judgment)
Most people control their fear everyday, some people create religions to help control this fear and control the masses.
Can you honestly say that you don't fear that death will take away your loved ones?
That is an other reason why to fear death and it includes that it is an unknown.
What "unknown" are we speaking of? Why should anyone even think that there is an "unknown" after we die? I'm a former Christian and sounds like religious speak to me. I guess no one knows with certainty but then we shouldn't be saying that we know for certain why people "fear" death.
Na not religious just honesty we dont know what happens so its unknown.
There are plenty of gnostic atheists and theists who do 'know'...so it might be better if you didn't use the word 'we' to describe what folks here think...please remember that we are not all alike.
I meant 'we' in a figurative way...similar to how someone might say 'you' in the same way. Wasn't insinutating everyone here thinks alike.
np, Deirdre, I am on the sensitive side about the use of it. Even tho I've probably done it myself ;-) So many people are told how and what to think that, no matter what the subject, when I hear 'we' think/do/act such-and-thus I want to put the boxing gloves on.
I understand, and it's funny you say this, because the other day, I was chatting with a friend about something and I used the term 'we,' and she said...'what do you mean we??" haha So, it's something I say without thinking of the meaning it might have to someone else. Like 'we' could mean...I'm assuming everyone is thinking like me. And it's not how I intend it. So, I need to be mindful of that!
I appreciate your reply, thank u. :=)
"Why should anyone even think that there is an "unknown" after we die?"
It just is the best scientific position to have when you speak about something that you don't know.
Thus I don't need to justify anything since I don't know.
If on the other hand you claim that you know what is gonna happen to your conciseness after you die, then you are making a claim, just like any other christian.
Then you MUST support your claim with evidence else you are no different then some religious person.
You still think death is not an unknown?
Yes, no one can be certain of what "happens" if anything, after we die, but better said is that I don't fear the unknown. Fearing it doesn't change it, whatever the unknown turns out to be. That's more of what I'm thinking. To each's own.
"Fearing it doesn't change it" That is a correct statement.
Though it seems you are not understanding why people have fear.
They don't fear the unknown because it is an unknown, they fear the unknown because it is different from what they know.
People are comfortable with things they understand and prefer to stay in that comfort zone.
Something that threatens that comfort zone like death, is feared instinctively in our brains.
You might control your fear to the extant of wanting to die but the fear is always there. It has a say in your choices.
EDIT:
"Fearing it doesn't change it" but it helps in delaying it if kept under control.
In some instances fear hastens it though.
EG:
Fear death by plane crashing is natural, that is why you don't ride a plane which has a broken wing, or has an engine on fire even if the hostess says it is fine with a smile.
Fear usually helps in extending your life but not always, too much fear might actually do the opposite.
That is true and where the "fight or flight" response comes into play. Fear can be a good thing at times.
Regarding fearing the unknown as it relates to death. If I'm honest, my whole conception of death was largely fixated around the spiritual realm and Christian "definition" of it. I never believed in heaven vs hell as a Christian but when you are indoctrinated from a young age, it sort of sits in the back of your mind. To think of death as something different, now that I'm an atheist, is different. I don't fear death the way I did as a Christian but I guess I can't say that I'm indifferent either. Lol
Hmmm!
I was a christian and i did a lot of study on the its philosophy.
As far as I know a christian should hope he dies by accident to get with god sooner.
Now i know that no christian actually does that, but Christians tend to be Hippocrates, there is no true christian on this world.(fact)
They don't follow the theology but what the priest says. They are church worshipers actually, that is why there are so many denominations of Christianity.Everyone of them reads the bible and gets his own sick interpretation instead of realizing that it is just a book of tools(some contradicting) that was used for preaching to any type of audience in the roman empire.
Yup.
Ive tried arguing that tactic they just claim atheists want them to commit suicide. Not what i said at all i argued why dont christians all sign up for the highest risk jobs.
Yep, agreed. I try not to hold anger over it. Took a long time to shake the anger stage after leaving religion. Probably the longest stage of all. :-/
Yes its anger over betrayal.
I watched a show and the subject of the show was immunity to fear in the face of death, a psychologist on the show I think said it best "The number one reason for fear is uncertainty." I think uncertainty is a better word than unknowing though they mean the same thing but here's why, some people have for whatever reason convinced themselves to a level of certainty whether they are correct or not that they are absolutely certain what will happen when they die. I would argue some of these people are not afraid to die. Some believe they will go to a better place or a blissful place some simply think their life ends and there is nothing after it. All these people can be in situations where they have no uncertainty.
There are documented cases and evidence all over the place where people have begged for death or actually killed themselves. I think in many of these cases whatever these people thought was next whether uncertain or not they felt it could not be worse than being alive. SO I argue these people even if just for a short time do not fear death.
I do fear death, because I want to live I after my own experience with near death have more uncertainty than ever about what comes next but it not because of this I fear death. Its because I really really want to live. I do not feel ready to leave this life behind, I can't imagine doing so right now and would not be happy or satisfied with my life were it to end right now. I am not afraid of where I might be going but rather I am afraid what I am leaving behind.
Zap can you check the why the religion of athizm topic id like your take on it i dont believe him.
I posted under the thread for you.
Normally when I see OPs with as much wrong going on as that one I generally don't leave replies as I can tell with them they have in most cases thrown logic right out the window. I have... faith (LOL) that when humans show so little logic they are doing so on purpose or because the are purposely closed to it. This makes me question their motive. 5 Euro says Chuck Rodgers ends up being a troll.
Zaphod
"I do fear death, because I want to live" yep fear of loosing what you have is one of the reason we fear death.
But how do you know that you won't go to a different place, like a parallel universe, or like in a matrix you wake up in the real world, and maybe this one was a dream. Fear of Uncertainty is also there but it is a lesser fear which is sometimes overcome. Just because someone overcomes it it does not mean it is not there.
I know i'm just speculating here, but since we don't know what happens after death, we cannot assume that it is our end.
Religious people think it is not, we cannot dismiss the idea just because religious people must be wrong. That is not science but bias.
Zaphod
"I argue these people even if just for a short time do not fear death."
Hmm I already addressed this, and proved that fear always have a say in one's decision.
Regardless of their final choice.
The brain is a complex thing, it has conflicting thoughts coming from different aspects, like bias, FEAR, knowledge, experience,etc...
You have to imagine the brain like a democratic country.
Just because a country decides to invade an other country it doesn't mean that all the country citizens share the same thought, it just means that the majority think so.
From all those conflicting thoughts in your brain you take a decision.
In the case of accepting death as a better option in a particular situation, your brain decided to overcome the fear of death and accept it as a better option.
It does not mean that the fear of death is not there, but that it is just a minority. reason/experience won over fear. Same applies for fear of Uncertainty/unknown.
Which is the strongest fear depends on the person, it seems Zaphod that you fear less uncertainty then loosing what you have and that is perfectly normal.
Erm bad analogy almost every single war in usa history has been opposed by the majority.
And most of the recent wars the uk joined the majority were against.
Fact is democratic countries do pretty much anything they want until the next election.
EDIT:
People that don't fear death enough and have too much faith, end up dead :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=140g0qmZZ24&index=4&list=RD44ilZq3R900
We *all* end up dead, Jeff.
yea but some before others, I think I was clear on that point.
I used to be afraid of going to hell, but now I don't think there is an afterlife. Because of this I am less afraid of death and I enjoy my life more than I ever have before and want to do everything I can because I know time is short.
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