I need disprove of Islam

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Arrow Florken's picture
I need disprove of Islam

I need disprove of the Islamic religion like quotes from the Quran contradictory to science or some fucked up shit in the Quran, literally anything



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watchman's picture


Try these questions......

1/ No record of Muhammad’s reported death in 632 appears until more than a century after that date.

Why ?

2/ A Christian account, apparently dating from the mid 630’s speaks of an un-named Arab prophet “armed with a sword” who seems to be still alive.

This is the Doctrina Jacobi, a Christian text written in or about 640 CE.
It describes a Jewish discussion set in 634, in which a letter by a Palestinian Jew with the name Abraham is read.

“We Jews are full of joy. They say that a prophet has appeared among the Saracens, and that he proclaims the advent of the anointed one, the Messiah who is to come. When I, Abraham, had gone to Sykamina, I consulted an old man well-versed in the Scriptures on this matter, asking: 'What is your opinion, my master and teacher, on this prophet who has appeared among the Saracens?'
With a mighty sigh, he replied: 'He is an impostor. Prophets don't come with sword and chariot. Truly the events of today are the works of disorder. I fear that the Messiah that came first, the one that is worshipped by the Christians, was indeed sent by God, and that we will be found by the Devil. Didn't Isaiah say that we, Jews, 'are to have a heart of stone full of errors until the end of the world'? But go now, master Abraham, and find out for yourself about this prophet.
Searching and toiling, I, Abraham, was learned from people who had met him: 'You won't find any truth in this prophet, only bloodshed; for he says he possesses the keys of paradise, which is incredible.' “

If this is a reference to Mohammed it appears that he did not die in 632 and we are missing some Quranic verses dealing with the “Keys of Paradise” as well as his (Mohammad’s) messianic properties.

3/ The early accounts written by the peoples the Arabs conquered NEVER mention :
a) Islam
b) Muhammad
c) the Qur’an

The conquerors themselves are, variously, called:
e) Ishmaelites
f) Saracens
g) Muhajirun
h) Hagarians

But NEVER Muslims.

Why ? ( The first written reference to “Muslims” may be by the Coptic Christian Bishop John of Nikiou in the 690’s.)

4/ The Arab conquerors themselves, in their coins and inscriptions, don’t mention Islam or the Qur’an for more than half a century (60 years) after the start of their campaigns of expansion.

Why ?
If the impetus for the sudden Arab expansion was religious fervour ,why so reticent.

5/ The Qur’an, even by the canonical Muslim account, was not distributed in its present form until the 650’s.
Contradicting this standard account is the fact that neither the Arabians nor the Christians nor the Jews in the region even mention the Qur’an until the early eighth century.

Why ?
If the sudden appearance of “the perfect book” was part of this “awakening” why no mention of the great revelation.

So , perhaps something a bit off with the traditional story of Islam.

6/ Only in the 690’s do we begin to hear about Muhammad, the prophet of Islam and about Islam itself. This was during the reign of the caliph Abd al-Malik. Coins and inscriptions reflecting Islamic beliefs begin to appear at this time also.

Why ,
where are the earlier inscriptions declaring the “new management” where are the triumphal shouts about the Seal of the Prophets ,Gods chosen and his unstoppable victories …. Its all strangely silent

7/ At about the same time, Arabic becomes the predominant written language of the Arabian Empire, supplanting Syriac and Greek.

Fair enough , the new management putting its seal on the way things are going to be done.

8/ Abd al-Malik claimed, in a passing remark in one hadith , to have collected the Qur’an .

This contradicts the Islamic tradition that the collection was the work of the caliph Uthman, forty years earlier.

Depending upon which Hadith you choose to read the the Quran was compiled up to three times. First by Zayd ibn Thabit on the orders of Abu Bakr then again on the orders of the Caliph Uthman , and/or maybe again later by Hajjaj ibn Yusuf on the orders Abd al-Malik.

9/ Multiple hadiths report that Hajjaj ibn Yusuf, governor of Iraq during the reign of Abd al Malik , edited the Qur’an and distributed his new edition to the various Arab controlled provinces – again something Uthman is supposed to have done decades earlier.

“edited the Qur’an ?” what price the unaltered book ?

10/ Even some Islamic traditions maintain that certain, common Islamic practices, such as the recitation of the Qur’an during mosque prayers, date from the orders of Hajjaj ibn Yusuf and not to the earliest period of Islamic history.

What is this ? Attempts to unify the religious/cultural practices of a burgeoning empire?.

11/ In the middle of the eighth century ,the Abbasid dynasty supplanted the Umayyad line of Abd al-Malik. The Abbasids charged the Umayyads with impiety on a large scale.
In the Abbasid period , biographical material about Mohammad began to proliferate.
The first complete biography of the prophet of Islam finally appeared during this era – at least 125 years after the traditional date of his death.

Could it be that this Abbasid period represents the true birth of Islam … created by a powerful political Caliph and imposed in order to unify his growing and disparate empire. ( similar reasons to Constantine’s for the imposition of Christianity)

12/ The biographical material that emerged situates Muhammad in an area of Arabia that NEVER was the centre for trade and pilgrimage that the canonical Islamic account of Islams origins depends on it to be.

Check out a map …
why would anyone with precious goods to transport choose a route that :

1/ risks interception by desert raiders .

2/ skirts the “empty quarter” .

3/then edges along the “Nefud” to transport goods of any value.

While there are two easier and arguably safer sea routes ,one to the west (Egypt ,Byzantium and the wider Mediteranean. The other to the east ( Sassanid Persia and the greater Levant).

Just questions.......... but ,still demanding of answers.....

Then there is this......

Two Muhammads and two Qurans?

Muhammad was like two different persons at two different times and the Quran is like two contradictory books
pasted together.
Muhammad as ruler of Medina had a strikingly different character than when he was the prophet of Mecca.
The Quranic verses he penned in Mecca often contradict the verses he wrote in Medina.

(1) In Mecca, Muhammad preached and exhorted people to submit to Islam. In Medina, he used the threat of the
sword to compel people to convert to Islam.

(According to the Medina verses, Allah accepts converts who do not believe in him inwardly, but will kneel to him
outwardly under threat of death. Muhammad did not have this view of Allah until he became a war lord and used
force to compel people to accept his rule.)

(2) In Mecca, Muhammad led the life of a teacher and prophet and followed disciplines of prayer, fasting, and
worship. In Medina, he was the political ruler and the military commander. During his ten years in Medina, he
personally led 27 military attacks. Prior to his death, he conquered most of the Arabian peninsula.

(3) In Mecca, Muhammad had one wife. During his last ten years of his life at Medina, he married twelve more

(The poor family man of Mecca became the wealthy, voluptuous sheik with a harem of "wives" in Medina.
Polygamy and harem culture debases women and makes men hedonistic and narcissistic. Societies that
sanction polygamy, harems, and concubines have always assigned a low status to women.)

(The Medina Quran's heaven for men is a garden paradise where every male sensual pleasure is catered to by
nubile nymphs--just as every sensual pleasure of Muhammad, as the voluptuous sheik of a harem, was
indulged. The Medina Allah is a God for men. Goldmann says Muslim women have a hard time getting into

(4) In Mecca, Muhammad fought against idol worship. In doing so, he exempted Christians and Jews from his
proscriptions and persecutions and respected them as "people of the book." In Medina, he persecuted
Christians and Jews as infidels.

(Christians and Jews in Islamic countries never know when they will be protected and respected or persecuted
and reviled. The situation is often fluid so that protection can suddenly gives way to persecution. Historically, the
best Christians and Jews can hope for under Muslim rule is second class citizenship and heavy taxes from
which Muslims are exempt. When jihad and war lord sensibilities were in the air, Christians and Jews often
faced forced conversion, banishment, slavery, sexual bondage, or death.)

The Medinan suras or Medinan chapters of the Qur'an are the latest 24 suras that, according to Islamic tradition, were revealed at Medina after Muhammad's hijra from Mecca. These suras were revealed by Allah when the Muslim community was larger and more developed, as opposed to their minority position in Mecca.
The Medinan suras occur mostly at the beginning and in the middle of the Qur'an (but are said to be the last revealed suras chronologically), and typically have more and longer ayat (verses). Due to the new circumstances of the early Muslim community in Medina, these suras more often deal with details of moral principles, legislation, warfare (as in sura 2, al-Baqara), and principles for constituting and ordering the community. They also refer more often to the community with "O people!" and at times directly address Muhammad or speak of him as "an agent acting in combination with the divine persona: 'God and his messenger'

The 30 suras of the Medinan period, according to Noldeke (chronologically 91-114):
2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 13, 22, 24, 33, 47, 48, 49, 55, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 76, 98, 110

Sorry this is a bit "messy"....this is from my notes.....needs polishing....but may give you a starting point.

Seeker of Truth's picture
@Watchman.. this is an

@Watchman.. this is an awesome post!

I believe I have found the true identity of the "Messenger of Allah" Malik has described in his Al-Muwatta. Also the origin of Islam as in literally. Your research only supports my findings further.

I am trying to make it short and simple otherwise I fear it will be an extremely long and boring post that nobody reads. I figured powerpoint is a good way to present such long and boring stuff in a shorter and more attractive manner so I have started preparing a ppt presentation.

When I manage to complete and post it, you definitely must read and compare it and merge my findings with your research. Also point out any errors or contradictions that I may have missed. That way we could bring out a solid theory about the truth of what they today call "religion of islam".

Researching is fun and exciting but it is so darn difficult to put all those findings into any form of presentation in a clear and brief way :/

watchman's picture
@Seeker of Truth....

@Seeker of Truth....

So glad you are still digging.....and its good to know you too regard research as fun.... and I know too the frustration of looking at a page of data and know that it contains what you've been looking for ...but you cannot make it easily readable/accessible for others...

Anyway...we'll get it sorted.....

One of my problems is that I continually get distracted....led down alleys by things I find..... for instance...

I can't shake the thought that there is something "off" in the muslim narrative regarding all those Quran verses about Islam being specific to the Arabs...being an Arabic text for ease of understanding etc. You know the verses....

Then there is the term...."Mawia"...coined to refer to non arab muslims...does this imply that there was a time when there were real muslims (arabs) and some how second rate muslims (non arabs) ..... if not then why was the word "mawia" necessary....and does this tiered system of thinking still permeate islam today.....etc.etc.

Sorry...I'm rambling....told you ...I tend to get distracted.....anyway....look forward to seeing your piece...

Edward Campbell's picture
Please could you kindly list

Please could you kindly list citations so that I can buy the books. Thanks.

watchman's picture
Quran.......of course....

Quran.......of course....

then Robert Spencers "Did Muhammad Exist"...... Don't trust Spencer's scholarship.....but his sources are sound.

then check Wiki...for both Meccan and Medina verses.....as always with Wiki the articles only give an overview ...but the listed sources point to the questions .....

That one guy's picture
Holly crap write a novel why

Holly crap write a novel why don't you. If nothing else i praise your drive to research.

Seenyab4's picture
Yeah I was gonna do a

Yeah I was gonna do a paragraph of my own, but he seems to have it covered.

watchman's picture


Please post.......we need more on Islam.....it is to our collective discredit that we are so unprepared for Islamists......we have spent so much of our resources on debunking Christianity and Judaism but until recently have applied little or no effort to the Quran....

Edward Campbell's picture
Muslims might like to pretend

Muslims might like to pretend that any historically accurate narrative regarding Muhammad and Islam was a 'novel'. It's called 'taquiyya'.

mykcob4's picture
Why bother? Islam is only as

Why bother? Islam is only as "fucked up" as any other myth.

charvakheresy's picture
Its true that islam is as

Its true that islam is as ridiculous as any other myth. Yet the kind of information that Watchmen and others have provided is fascinating. Not only is it interesting to read but more it helps us understand what was the motivation for the setting up of the religion.

secondly there is a lot of information available refuting the bible, however not much is available refuting the claims of muslims and the research that people are doing into this is really worth a mention.

watchman's picture


"Why bother?".......

Some years ago I was on another site.....(I can't remember which....)

When this young Muslim posted.....

"I'm a Muslim because Islam is the only valid and true religion

Quran doesn't have a single error or contradiction

There is no need to prove each statement in Quran; as we have the same copy of Quran, that was written right after the prophet time

Quran has many scientific facts not known at that time, future predictions, formulas and numbers that cannot be matched in any other books

there is at least 3 copies out of the 5 original copies of Quran (So it was not altered)

Islam has a unique science and method of authenticating texts called "Hadith"
but this apply for prophet quotes and statement, there is no need to do that for Quran, because the original copy exists now"

Pretty standard stuff.......

It was responded to by people pointing out the logical fallacies of theistic beliefs ....the failings of the Abrahamic narrative.

But ,probably because of the different traditions concerning Abraham ,our rebuttals were ignored...this guy was so cock sure......

and we............we had nothing............nothing that could even phase him.....

That's when I started digging...................that's why I started digging.....

You are ,of course ,right mykcob "Islam IS as "fucked up" as any other myth."...

And it can be unpicked...dismantled just as simply as all the others .... it only takes research....

"Why bother ?? "

for me its so that the next time I come across one of these super confident muslim appologists......he will go away with at least the seeds of doubt....

Now I seem to remember that you have spent rather a lot of time in muslim countries.....

so what do you see as Islam's weakness' ?

CyberLN's picture
"for me its so that the next

"for me its so that the next time I come across one of these super confident muslimapologists.....he will go away with at least the seeds of doubt...."

I, for one, thank you for that, Watchman.

ThePragmatic's picture
I second that!

I second that!


This is meant as a rhetorical question: The same goes for your own posts, why bother?

I don't have any intention to give you critique for your posts with this, instead just to point out that you bother to read the posts that theists and others write in the forum, and you bother to answer and rebuke many of them.

I get that you don't think that they can be reasoned with, still you bother to write rebukes to their posts. Some people, like Gabriel, is probably just a huge waste of time, but it's impossible to know unless we try.

I gave you a couple of examples earlier of theist posts who seemed to be proselytizing, but turned out to be people with serious doubts. In one case it was a 13 year old girl who had all but left religion on her own, but was posting because her friend was trying to pull her back in.

Giving counter arguments and reasoning with people is more or less the purpose of the "Debate Room" as well as many other forums.

mykcob4's picture
Well, that is a good enough

Well, that is a good enough reason for me.

Edward Campbell's picture
I like the cut of your jib,

I like the cut of your jib, Watchman. Keep up the good work. I too was motivated to start digging 3 years agp after attending my PhD partner's annual conference of the UK Sartre Society. After lunch, most of the first two rows were asleep...

I suggested that she researches Islam in relation to feminism (Beauvoir was the subject of her Doctoral thesis).

Three years, and 800 books later, which I bought for her, she is finally getting round to finishing off a 20 page preface to the life of Sartre and Beauvoir, under the subject of 'Freedom of Speech'.

Charlie Hebdo was the nail in the coffin for her past 'Existentialism'. Along with the sea of cowardly academics who are more interested in protecting their tenures than defending truth or freedom of speech.

Now, as in France, the whole subject of freedom of speech has dramatically come under threat, with NO British media outsource showing the cover of Charlie Hebdo's reissue, shown on British television with only the title visible.

Naturally, I bought her a local Brighton copy, regardless of cost... (£20, then £50, when her hysterical grown-up daughter tore up the first copy when she found her granddaughter reading it, and laughing, "at the funny pictures").



Attach Image/Video?: 

Sam02's picture

I know this was written some time ago but I've only just come across it.
I was wondering if you could advise on how you reply to someone that is so adamant above these facts, future predictions and formulas?
I'm no where as learned as you are in these matters and most debates are cut short with a simple amount of common sense but when they bring up matters regarding prediction and science in the Quran I don't know how to reply to that.

Any information would be appreciated.



watchman's picture
Sam02's picture
Much appreciated, thank you.

Much appreciated, thank you.

Rohan M.'s picture
@Watchman LOL he actually

@Watchman LOL he actually believed all that? I call Poe.

whisperman's picture
i was a muslim also i was

i was a muslim also i was supported Sharia when i was kid. i read many books about islam. lets show you some bullshit from Quran.
1- we know that when falling star it is an astrological event but for quran ? in the quran when falling star angels are shooting devils source (Saffat 6-7-8-9-10)
2- Qurans says god of rules are supporting each other (source 48/23 6/115 33/62) but on the other hand says "we change some rules when we want" (source 2/106)
3- All believers will go to heaven for some verse (soruce 1/62 5/69) but you can some verse like this "just muslims can go to heaven i will burn all other people" (source 3/85)

also classical muslim lie is quran is so complicate book we can not understand that directly but quran says "we created quran clearly for everyones can understand it." so if you read it and you did not understand that this means you are mad and you are not responsible what you did :)
you can not find a logic in quran i am so sorry for my english but you can check my sources then you will understand what i want to say.
if you need more proof you i can provide you many verse from quran again i am sorry for my english

Seeker of Truth's picture
also classical muslim lie is

also classical muslim lie is quran is so complicate book we can not understand that directly but quran says "we created quran clearly for everyones can understand it."

It can not be understood because the meanings of words have been changed and there has also been a lot of additions. In fact what they call 'quran' today was not a single complete book in the beginning. The history of Islam is not what we have been told. Not only is 'Quran' created but so is the history. There are few who knows it (like Saudi royals who don't care about the so called holy buildings and demolish for more space) but most live in denial so they cling to the claim that it is complicated to understand.

Türkçe bildiğini farzediyorum paylaştığın videodan. Yakında yayınlayacağım çalışmamı okumanı öneririm. Şimdiye kadar hiçbiryerde duymadığın bir teori. Teori derken kafadan tahmin değil, çok yönlü araştırma ve verileri karşılaştırma ile ortaya çıkan muhtemel gerçekler. İlk yayınımı özellikle okursan nasıl bir teori üzerinde çalıştığımı daha iyi anlarsın. O dönem araştırmaya yeni başlamıştım. Şimdi daha somut bilgilerle sadece müslümanları değil ateistleri dahi tepetaklak edecek bir islam tarih olacak.

Rohan M.'s picture
@SoT And I thought "Religion

@SoT And I thought "Religion Of Peace™" was the biggest Muslim lie. LOL

Edward Campbell's picture
Hero :). Welcome to freedom.

Hero :). Welcome to freedom. Salam.

watchman's picture
Greetings whisperman.......

Greetings whisperman.......

Good to have you here.....your journey here must have been a dangerous one.....
Don't apologise for your English......its a damn site better than my Arabic..or any other language for that matter.....

I was brought up in England and have picked up the English trait of not learning other languages......

Indeed most English people firmly believe that every one speaks English behind their backs and only pretend not to understand......hence the propensity to speak English LOUDER.....

I hope you stick around...I for one can utilise your expertise...but for now ...just settle in here...take a look araound

whisperman's picture
thanks for answer watchman.

thanks for answer watchman.
I was excluded from society and I was threatened many times but no problem for me i do not care i am software engineer and i am working on artfical intelligent.I have already published 1 article upon emotion simulation. although my grovment is not support our works . but i strongly believe that one day all people understand that we have to fight for our planet not for countries. i am always ready for help what i can about my profession or knowledge of religion. i stay islamic dormitory for 12 years i hope i can help you.

by the way i want to share with you funny video about turkish imam he is too famous at turkey.

he telling :
Shakespeare lived 500 years ago.he is not english people. never been Shakespeare name before or after him.his real name is sheik patriarch (turkish şeyhpir ) and he was secret muslim.today an english kid if read the Shakespeare. he can understand that clearly like contemporary books(he is patriarch and he is secred muslim so it is proof of the islam). :)

if you want more just tell me :)

Edward Campbell's picture
he telling :

he telling :
Shakespeare lived 500 years ago.he is not english people. never been Shakespeare name before or after him.his real name is sheik patriarch (turkish şeyhpir ) and he was secret muslim.today an english kid if read the Shakespeare. he can understand that clearly like contemporary books(he is patriarch and he is secred muslim so it is proof of the islam). :)

if you want more just tell me :)

"Taquiyya is strong in this padawan, Obi Wan", Yoda.

Nyarlathotep's picture
From video - never been

From video - never been Shakespeare name before or after him


Richard Shakespeare (famous author's grandfather).

watchman's picture


Sorry for delay in replying.....I watched the video....

Odd isn't it ...that they think such outright lies will bolster their case.... when the reality is that they merely prompt the question why is it necessary to lie in the first place......... sort of counter productive really....

(Had he done the slightest bit of research he would have found that during Shakespeare's time , the Catholics were burning Protestants ,the Protestants were burning Catholics & both were burning supposed witches ...... now what chance would an infidel Muslim ,secret or otherwise ,have of surviving undetected for more than 20 minutes.)

But it did put me in mind of this.......


Edward Campbell's picture
"You should have been in 'Al

"You should have been in 'Al Andalus' during the Reconquista in Granada, those were the days", Ferdinando II, 2nd January 1492.



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