Oh my god no, nono, how are we suppose to debunk Lourdes?

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Mikhael's picture
Oh my god no, nono, how are we suppose to debunk Lourdes?

People were fired of paralysis and blindness, it's documented ! I don't understand , please, oh my god actually feel like I'm gonna die

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Nyarlathotep's picture
When believers start getting

When believers start getting their amputated limbs restored at Lourdes; I'll pay attention.

Mikhael's picture
But...bur how? A woman with a

But...bur how? A woman with a paralyzed arm puts her arm in thebeater and she's Instantly healed, I just don't understand and I feel like my e tire life is ending

Nyarlathotep's picture
Mikhael - A woman with a

Mikhael - A woman with a paralyzed arm...

How do you know it was paralyzed?

Mikhael's picture
I figure whoever took her

I figure whoever took her story asked her and it would be a known fact in her family

LogicFTW's picture
This is important Mikhael:

This is important Mikhael:

Everything you read, including what I write here is just words. Humans are very capable of lying.

I am god.
I just lied.

Verbal / written accounts mean absolutely nothing about truth/reality unless it can be somehow verified. Somehow tested, experimented, with results that actually fit into all the other verified findings we have done so far. Even if you personally got 100 testimonials from 100 people you know, realize it is all still talk. All done by people that can lie, that can be tricked, that can be confused, that can be under the influence.

For most of human history, most of humanity thought the world was mostly flat (not a sphere) and that the sun the planets and stars all revolved around the earth. Just because 100, 1000, etc people all say it happened it still does not make it verified to be true/real.

Do not be worried about any "evidence" you come across for some possible god idea. Trust me, if real, verifiable evidence came out about a "god," It would be world wide national news. It would be on the news cycles 24/7, it would be impossible to miss. We would be talking about it non stop here.

I tell you what actual evidence for god would not be as well: some obscure article in a religious based news organization that we and everyone else eithir missed or simply passed over.

Just ask yourself: could I write a book on what I just read? Could I simply change the time, location and people involved and still have the same base evidence?

What if I told you, what you just read (what you are talking about in your original post), I wrote it, I made it, and I mention 10 different "eye witness accounts" names out of 100's except I paid off those people to say they were there and that happened if anyone were actually ask them about it?" Could you prove my book is fake anymore then what you just read?

No, you could not. Because what you read earlier has not 1 iota of real, testable evidence, it is all just unverified words. Written/spoken by people fully capable of lying, being confused, influenced, and tricked.

cranky47's picture
On Lourdes:

On Lourdes:

Bernadette Soubirous had her visions of the lady between February 11 and July 16, 1858

As far as I know, since then more than 200 MILLION pilgrims have visited Lourdes hoping for a cure, To date ,the Catholic church has recognised a total of 65 cures. No amputated limbs, or missing eyeballs or other absent bodily parts have grown back .

For comparison : The rate of the spontaneous remission of disease is; 1:30,000. which is say 3 to 100,000, or 30 to a million, which roughly, is 6000 to 200 million ( I think, I suck at arithmetic)

Short answer : Cures from Lourdes are woo.

As an Atheist, you need to debunk nothing .It is up to the theists to prove their claim you have no responsibility to disprove/debunk anything .

LogicFTW's picture
Subtract 4 "zeros" from 200

Subtract 4 "zeros" from 200 million, then divide by 3.

200,000,000 minus 4 zeros equals:
20,000 Divide by 3. = 6,666.6 repeating. <== HAH.

The church only assigned 65. (Lets round up to 66) that is 1/100th the rate of spontaneous remission. If these numbers are true, the Lourdes and piligrim to, is the anti-cure, you are 100 times more likely to die doing that, then if you just stayed home.

Cognostic's picture
RE: Instantly healed,

RE: Instantly healed, Horseshit!

Mikhael's picture
Well I did find an article of

Well I did find an article of debunking that said in the first decade or so it was almost all word of mouth and little actual diagnosis but I don't know

Tin-Man's picture
Honestly, Mikhael, why the

Honestly, Mikhael, why the hell do you keep looking up all that crap?

Mikhael's picture
Because I'm scared

Because I'm scared

David Killens's picture
@Mikhael

@Mikhael

"Because I'm scared"

You are scared because you search for this kind of stuff, then diligently research everything about it. That is like throwing gasoline on the fire.

I am going to say this the VERY last time, stop looking for this shit. Take whatever insecurities you have now and focus on destroying them. If you want to feed into your fears by finding such crap, then at least debunk one story at a time, before moving on the the next cause of fear and anxiety.

MIkhael, I like you, I think you are funny and intelligent. But this will be the last time I engage in this topic. You are going down the path to madness, and your constant posting on this topic in this forum is part of the road to madness. I will not enable your insanity.

Mikhael's picture
Thank you, I appreciate you.

Thank you, I appreciate you. I'm gonna go out for a drink tonight with a friend, try to relax. I know that I'm going mad here, I really am, and I'm gonna try to breathe

Cognostic's picture
FUCK! We do not have to

FUCK! We do not have to debunk fucking anything. BEFORE YOU BELIEVE THE BULLSHIT. HAVE SOME FUCKING EVIDENCE.

Mikhael's picture
But if we have a woman

But if we have a woman whoncouldnt move her hand before and now can isn't that evidence? Wouldn't people call her our if she lied so obviously ?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Mikhael - But if we have a

Mikhael - But if we have a woman [who couldn't] move her hand before...

How the fuck do you know that?

I'll tell you something you might not know: religious leaders have been caught preforming "miracle" cures on people who NEVER had the affliction that was supposedly cured. As again I ask you, how do you know this person even had this affliction?

Mikhael's picture
I mean, there's reports,

I mean, there's reports, there's doctors involved. I don't know where to read them tho

David Killens's picture
@Mikhael

@Mikhael

"But if we have a woman whoncouldnt move her hand before and now can isn't that evidence?"

Do you understand that the body has the capacity to heal itself? Without any divine intervention?

Mikhael's picture
I know, and for most cases of

I know, and for most cases of Lourdes I believe that but some cases seem so very very amazing and claim to have been diagnosed and then instantly cured

David Killens's picture
@Mokhael?

@Mokhael?

Diagnosed? Then before their visit to Lourdes they were inspected by a valid medical professional, their condition was documented, and the post Lourdes condition was also inspected and documented.

I will let you in on a little secret, there is no valid medical documentation.

STOP READING THAT SHIT

Mikhael's picture
Ok but what of more recent

Ok but what of more recent cures? I guess they're getting a lot more rare aren't they? I guess if one in a million people are cured at Lourdes they could have been cured anywhere else

But at this point I feel like I'm using a dozen explanations to piece together a story instead of one explanation, even if that one explanation is god

David Killens's picture
@Mikhael

@Mikhael

"Ok but what of more recent cures? "

Then, even more, the documentation would exist. Any doctor who had a patient, documented an incurable condition, and then with the same patient, did another examination and discovered that condition was healed, you can bet your granny's brass buttons the world would hear of it.

It would make world headlines on every news service.

Mikhael's picture
But...thays exactly what

But...thays exactly what happens. Just lasybyear a nun was cured of paralysis after her doctors declare they couldn't explain her healing

David Killens's picture
@Mikhael

@Mikhael

"But...thays exactly what happens. Just lasybyear a nun was cured of paralysis after her doctors declare they couldn't explain her healing"

Please read what you just stated above.

"The doctors could not explain her healing."

They did not state any supernatural cause. You are the one inserting the supernatural.

Think, don't just rush to the god explanation.

Mikhael's picture
Ok, right...im sorry, I'm

Ok, right...im sorry, I'm just so stressed, today was the most panic I have felt in about 6 years, I kept waiting to wake up from the night mare

Cognostic's picture
Demonstrate that she could

Demonstrate that she could not move her arm before. If she could not move her arm before, demonstrate that it was a physical condition and not a psychological condition. STOP BEING A PATSY!

Mikhael's picture
She reported fell out of a

She reported fell out of a tree and had curled do here for 2 years before, but there at least I can surmise that some kinds of nerve damage do start to heal

I'm not trying to be a patsy, this is the last thing I want to be doing because I feel like I'm close to hurting myself over this

Cognostic's picture
No one gives a fuck what she

No one gives a fuck what she reported. THAT IS THE CLAIM. Cite the evidence.
You quite simply have no filter what so ever to determine a claim being made from the actual evidence for the claim being made, ANYONE CAN CLAIM ANYTHING AT ALL. THE TIME TO BELIEVE SOMETHING IS WHEN THE EVIDENCE IS THERE.

cranky47's picture
Ever head of hysterical

Ever head of hysterical paralysis? (aka 'Conversion Disorder')

"Conversion disorder (CD), or functional neurologic symptom disorder, is a diagnostic category used in some psychiatric classification systems. It is sometimes applied to patients who present with neurological symptoms, such as numbness, blindness, paralysis, or fits, which are not consistent with a well-established organic cause, which cause significant distress, and can be traced back to a psychological trigger. It is thought that these symptoms arise in response to stressful situations affecting a patient's mental health or an ongoing mental health condition such as depression. Conversion disorder was retained in DSM-5, but given the subtitle functional neurological symptom disorder. The new criteria cover the same range of symptoms, but remove the requirements for a psychological stressor to be present and for feigning to be disproved. ICD-10 classifies conversion disorder as a dissociative disorder[1] while DSM-IV classifies it as a somatoform disorder. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_disorder

---and yes, people tell porkies.

My favourite story of strained credulity is that of saint Joseph of Cupertino, "The Levitating Monk" They even made a film .

Saint Joseph of Cupertino, O.F.M. Conv. (Italian: Giuseppe da Copertino; 17 June 1603 – 18 September 1663) was an Italian Conventual Franciscan friar who is honored as a Christian mystic and saint. He was said to have been remarkably unclever, but prone to miraculous levitation and intense ecstatic visions that left him gaping.[1]:iii

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_of_Cupertino

The link below is to the full film about Joseph,"The Reluctant Saint" Free viewing,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXxOLNRBdXw

Algebe's picture
Lourdes has been a pilgrimage

Lourdes has been a pilgrimage destination for 170 years. Millions of people go there every year, and yet even the church has officially recognized only about 70 miracles. Nobody has been cured of a major trauma, such as a broken or amputated limb. It's always ambiguous and subjective conditions.

Lourdes is an industrial-scale scam run by the church to make a profit from people's suffering. Shame on them.

The real miracle of Lourdes is that more people don't get sick from touching or even drinking that filthy water or slobbering over statues.

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