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Bullshit.
How can we call bullshit when it was documented by doctors before and after, supposedly objective ones?
...so I didn't realize psychosomatic illnesses were a thing that actually had some scientific clout and honestly thats...a thing
@ Mikhail
"psychosomatic" can also covers severe mental trauma that result in physical disability like palsy, paralysis and other manifestations. "Cures" of these type of conditions can be spontaneous and the result of pre suggestion and ritual.
It is not a "spiritual "cure or a "miracle" merely the the acts of a ritual releasing the mental restraints that the patient was under and having a profound physical effect.
There are plenty of studies available for this branch of mental care and many individual studies of such cases which now come under the umbrella of PTSD.
If you do some reading instead of panicking you will discover all manner of things. At least you are doing the right thing by asking the very knowledgeable crew here on the forums.
However to keep everyone's patience within reasonable bounds it would be wise , in future, to ask questions couched in non hysteric terms. e.g " Are there "miracle" cures at Lourdes?" for example, instead of your somewhat breathless and click bait headline.
It would be wise to simply pick up on the fact that a claim is not evidence. This has been explained over and over and over again to you. CLAIMS are not the EVIDENCE of an event. CLAIMS piled atop MORE CLAIMS still does not equal evidence. A billion bad claims do not equal one good piece of evidence.
I will work on trying to understand this
I did read through a case today of a doctor in therapy 1900s who saw a miracle at Lourdes and then converted to Christianity. He wrote about what he saw, but-
She was an immensely stressed woman sick for most of her life and could have been mis diagnosed
She was a firm believer and if she had a psychosomatic illness or could account for her symptoms decreasing in the hours aft r as she relaxes
He talks of a tumor on her back that shrunk wit in hours but how do they know it was a tumor and not a fluid pocket or intestinal blockage easing as her body restarted?
@ Mikhael
Yes, you are now thinking correctly. In 1900 diagnostics were at a primitive level compared to the way diagnostics are carried out today.
It is more likely the "tumour" was a pressure swelling as the woman in question had been bedridden. They disappear within hours once activity is resumed.
PTSD was an undiagnosed condition, it was often misdiagnosed as "shell shock" "Hysteria" "Mania" until very recently.
In other words any reports from the 1900's of "miracles" concerning medical cures can be safely disregarded as unsafe. There is not sufficient information available to corroborate the accounts.
This is all very true. Now I'm mostly just still a little hung up on some modern miracles that don't seem to fall under most explanations like being caught up in the moment, like when children too young to play into it are healed. Isbalso have a bad habit of wanting to read people's response to skeptics and it's doing me no favors when they say thibgs like "Well atheists know what it would mean for them if the resaurection was true thsts why they deny the evidence "
@ Mikhael
Glad to see you are getting professional help.
"Well atheists know what it would mean for them if the resaurection was true thsts why they deny the evidence "
You can always reply there is no, none, nada, zilch contemporary evidence for the jesus figure as described in the gospels. There is NO evidence at all for the resurrection myth. None, nothing, nada.
Remind them the gospels are just a claim, not evidence. Would they like to be convicted of murder on the same basis?
Good luck on Monday. Be honest with your counsellor.
@Mikhael
Let me tell a slightly fictional story that is loosely based on actual events about two people who had a similar issue.
---------------------------------------------
In both cases:
Here the stories diverge.
When Person A was informed about how data is backed up on phones; they were relieved and thankful for clearing up this mystery.
When Person B was informed about how data is backed up on phones; they went silent for a few moments, then replied that it must have been the ghost of their mom; since it happened on a Wednesday the 12th of May; and their mother's favorite day was Wednesday, and they were born in May, and had died on the 12th of October.
----------------------------------------------
I think this site might make an excellent resource for people who are like Person A.
Similar to what David Killens posted earlier; I'm concerned that you are more like Person B. I'm skeptical of how much help we can be to someone like that. Perhaps you should seek some professional help with this issue. That being said though: I don't have a problem with you posting these kinds of questions. But please consider getting some professional help either way.
I am definatelt that kind, and I dare say probably at of people who are claimed to have miracles are too, when first telling their story. Like...didbit REALLY heal as soon as you touched a medal to it or were you praying a long while while somet ing unexplainable happened ?
I have a shrink appointment Monday
Cool, maybe you should print off some of your posts and bring them. I'd recommend the ones where you discuss how this trap you find yourself in causes stress in your life.
Even if someone paralyzed at Lourdes and became healed there that would just be a coincidence almost for certain. It would have to keep happening. Maybe the patient was misdiagnosed and was never really paralyzed, maybe she's a faker.
Until the healing keeps happening and we see e.g. a regrown limb Lourdes is nonsense.
Also my universal argument: How could a God without a brain or neurons do a healing? He would have no knowledge of how to heal without neurons.
@Tom: My god has a brain and neurons and he only did one official healing at Lourdes before returning to his place beyond time and space. You are just wrong. God can manifest in physical form any time he likes. Jacob had a wrestling match with God in the old testament. God walked in the garden with Adam. WTF are you talking about? God appeared on earth as Jesus. PLEASE SHUT YOUR FACE, YOU ARE MAKING ATHEISM LOOK AS STUPID AS THEISM.
@Cognostic: He wouldn't be able to manifest in physical form without thinking and without having the knowledge of how to do that. Knowledge in intelligent beings comes from the brain. There's no evidence where there should be that you think or have knowledge without a brain. You are simply wrong. However the counter to my argument is that God is all-powerful so that he can do anything: How can he be all powerful if we humans are so badly designed?
It's called inference to best explanation: God contradicts science.
Don't be rude and tell me to shut my face you prick.
@Tom Fearnley: Read the previous post. All you did was repeat yourself. I have already demonstrated a God capable of being physical.
How can he be all powerful if we humans are so badly designed? Being all powerful in no way asserts that every single thing you do is going to be of the best quality possible. DUH. Sometimes, good enough is enough. Do you do every single thing you do to the best of your ability. NO/
Not only is my god capable of human form but he does not give a shit about you or the way you function. You were a frigging accident.
All you are doing is making erroneous claims about the god thing. SPEAKING AS AN ATHEIST - you are an embarrassment to atheism.
@Cognostic: "Read the previous post. All you did was repeat yourself. I have already demonstrated a God capable of being physical."
I have already shown you that God can't be physical if he doesn't have the knowledge of how to be physical. I didn't repeat myself entirely I added to the argument, your claim that I entirely repeated myself is clearly false. Please come up with a counter to my counter or shut up.
" Being all powerful in no way asserts that every single thing you do is going to be of the best quality possible."
But no all-powerful God would design us this way that's the point you're missing, DUH. It makes this God look as if he is not all-powerful: In fact it makes it look as if we were created by something with no higher intelligence whatsoever. So the all powerful claim is bunk.
"Sometimes, good enough is enough. Do you do every single thing you do to the best of your ability. NO/ "
For an all powerful God it would be effortless for him to create us without flaws. We don't do things to the best of our abilities all the time because it takes so much more effort for us to do so. Again, for God it would be effortless. This leaves a huge question mark over poor design. God cannot likely be all-powerful or even have the power of humans: Even humans are starting to design things better than the human body, slowly but surely. On top of this God has no brain AND is supposed to be intelligent? How on Earth could God create a universe.
"Not only is my god capable of human form but he does not give a shit about you or the way you function. You were a frigging accident. "
How can God be capable of human form if he doesn't have the "all" - knowledge of how to turn himself into a human? No brain/neurons, no knowledge. Makes no sense at all. An accident? God is supposed to have created us on purpose you idiot.
"All you are doing is making erroneous claims about the god thing. SPEAKING AS AN ATHEIST - you are an embarrassment to atheism."
You are slowly going to realize that all the arguments that you use for atheism were a waste of time and you could have just used the Common Sense Atheism approach instead of the shit New Atheist approach.
Again, the entire argument is called inference to best explanation and is what scientists use. It's a much easier way of debunking God than you're used to. You're just wrong and that, "atheist brother", is embarrassing.
@I have already shown you that God can't be physical.
I have already demonstrated a physical god. I gave you 3 specific examples and you have cited nothing but an erroneous opinion.
" Being all powerful in no way asserts that every single thing you do is going to be of the best quality possible."
YOU SAID: "But no all-powerful God would design us this way that's the point you're missing"
It does not matter what you think I am missing. You are placing expectations on my all powerful god. GO FUCK YOURSELF. It's my god and not yours.
YOU SAID: "For an all powerful God it would be effortless for him to create us without flaws"
And just as effortless to crate us with flaws. WHAT IS YOUR POINT? YOU DO NOT GET TO ATTRIBUTE CHARACTERISTICS TO MY GOD. Once again; GO FUCK YOURSELF. You have been shown demonstrably wrong.
re:"How can God be capable of human form if he doesn't have the "all" - knowledge."
What in the fuck do you not understand. I gave you 3 examples of god in human form. "ALL KNOWLEDGE" would not be required for anything, though my God certainly has "ALL KNOWLEDGE." Only "necessary knowledge" is required to accomplish any task of any kind. As my god has "all knowledge" his knowledge is certainly sufficient to be "necessary."
You were a frigging accident. "AND YET HERE I AM. Does it actually matter how we got here? A pigeon shit on your mother's front porch and when it began to rain, you grew out of the droppings. I know this for a fact. My God told me. But do you see me splashing it all over the internet? No! The fact that you grew from a piece of bird shit is completely safe with me. I will tell no one. Well, maby Tin Man. But that's it. No one else. Ummm well... Old man. I might let Sheldon know If I have had a few drinks, but no one else. DAVE/ Yea... I could let it slip in front of Dave/ But that's it. No one else will know that you came from a pile of shit. Just Tin Man, Old man, Dave, Sheldon, Rat Spit, In Spirit, The Big C, Algebe, Cyber, Cranky, and ..... well...... possibly a phone call to your mother. But that's it. No one else.... Of course the News Papers might pick up the story..... hmmm? No, that's just going too far. That's it! No one else!
YOU OBVIOUSLY DID NOT SAY THIS: "You are slowly going to realize that all the arguments that you use for atheism were a waste of time and you could have just used the Common Sense Atheism approach instead of the shit New Atheist approach."
From your post it is completely obvious you have no idea at all what a "common Sense Atheist Approach is." One inane, unfounded, moronic assertion about God and god after another. I stand my ground., "All you are doing is making erroneous claims about the god thing. SPEAKING AS AN ATHEIST - you are an embarrassment to atheism."
Again, the entire argument is called inference to best explanation and is what scientists use. NOW IT BECOMES OBVIOUS YOU HAVE NEVER HAD A SCIENCE CLASS. You mean you make an inference to the best explanation based on "FAITH."
STOP MAKING THE BULLSHIT INFERENCES. THEY MAKE YOU SOUND LIKE A FUCKTARD. YOU CAN NOT POSSIBLY KNOW THE BULLSHIT YOU ARE PROFESSING TO KNOW. YOU DO NOT GET TO DEFINE GOD FOR THE THEISTS. You are an EMBARRASSMENT TO ATHEISTS. Either you have no understanding of Atheism or you have no understanding of LOGIC.
@Cog Re: Your god
Holy hell, Cog! You seem to be having all sorts of trouble convincing that guy your god is real. What gives?... *confused look*... I mean, you have described it quite nicely and everything. Hell, I dare say you even wrote a-.... OH! Wait... I think I see the problem now. Let me guess.... You forgot to write a Super Holy Sacred Book about your god, didn't you?... *face palm*.... *groan*.... *mumbling to self*... (The shit I have to deal with around here...)... *heavy sigh*... Geeez, you lazy oaf! How many times have I reminded you to write that damn god book already? Honestly, how do you expect anybody to take you seriously about your god if you don't have a Super Holy Sacred book written about it?... *shaking head sadly*... Oh, and I shouldn't have to remind you of this, either, but DO NOT FORGET to mention your book was divinely dictated by your god and that everything in the book is true because your god said it is true. That way nobody will ever be able to dispute it. Or is all of that just too complicated for you to remember? Anyway, WRITE THE DAMN BOOK ALREADY!... *walking away toward break room*... Geez, I need a drink....
Have y'all even established a repressive priesthood yet??
TIN: I just got pissed he was defining my god for me. I hate ignorant atheists more than ignorant theists because they give us all a bad name. The guy could not think his way off of a dinner plate. I haven't even scratched the surface of my sacred holy book of miraculous and completely true claims. I have 6 pages done so far and that is enough to deal with an atheist making moronic claims about Gods. Page 1. God is real. Prove me wrong., HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ....
Of course my book was divinely dictated. That goes without saying. I am not spending my nights naked under a full moon for nothing. Divine inspiration comes to those who are prepared. Dispute it! Ha! What human being would stand naked on a mountain top awaiting divine inspiration if it were not real divine inspiration. It's indisputable.
RE: Write the damn book already! Listen - There are only so many full moons in a year. God works in mysterious ways. The book is coming in bits of inspirational pieces. GOD CAN NOT BE RUSHED!
@ Cog
There are only so many full moons in a year.
That refers to actual lunar moons...not the kind of moons you offer on a regular basis to passers by and cops....
Ha! What human being would stand naked on a mountain top awaiting divine inspiration if it were not real divine inspiration. It's indisputable.
True, and and what point do we have to remind you that you are a primate, but not a human? Look,Cuz, know your place.
Well, from the description I gave...... I guess I sorta mean both, A sorta... eclipse sort of event. One without the other just does not seem to work.
I am as close to a human as you get..... well..... except for those fucking Bonobos. They think they are so damn smart. I hate Bonobos!
" I have already shown you that God can't be physical.
I have already demonstrated a physical god. I gave you 3 specific examples and you have cited nothing but an erroneous opinion. "
How can God be all powerful without a brain or neurons? An intelligences power source is largely the brain. How can God become physical without a brain or neurons? He wouldn't have the knowledge of how to do so or be able to think of how to do such a thing.
Again my argument is a simple way of beating all arguments for God and you have shown no evidence that God can think thoughts/have knowledge/be all powerful without a brain or neurons.
The reason you don't believe in Santa Claus is because there's no evidence where there should be for him. The same with God: There's no evidence where there should be that you can think thoughts or have knowledge or have power without a brain/neurons.
The rest of your post is inane gibberish.
EDIT: Remember my main argument is the same as others: There is no evidence for God where there should be. But how to COUNTER all arguments for God? The above "no brain" argument beats ALL arguments for God and simply.
@Tom Re: "The reason you don't believe in Santa Claus is because there's no evidence where there should be for him."
Whoa!.... Whoa-whoa-whoa!.... Stop the bus!... *shaking head in disbelief*... Did I just read that correctly?... "No evidence for Santa"???.. *perplexed look*... Damn, dude, are you mental? Do you live in a cave? Oh, wait... I bet you are just trying to joke around a bit, huh?... *chuckle*... Good one. Ha-ha. Yeah, you almost got me there... *chuckle*... Yep, I was almost starting to worry about you for a second.
After all, evidence for Santa is everywhere! There are tons of books and tv shows about him. Heck, I even have reindeer tracks in my yard sometimes that just end, meaning that is obviously the point where the reindeer started flying. Then there are the major news networks that spot Santa's sleigh on their weather radar screens every Christmas Eve.
Now, granted, I am aware all those things could be considered "circumstantial" or unreliable. (Fake news, and shit like that.) However, every Christmas season I make the pilgrimage to the city mall where I actually SIT IN SANTA'S LAP. Yep, the jolly ol' soul in the red suit is right there IN PERSON, with thousands of witnesses. And I even speak with him. I tell him I have been a good boy all year, and then I tell him what I want him to bring me for Christmas. He then says, "Ho ho ho! Merry Christmas!", gives me a candy cane, sets me back on the floor, and then adjusts his crotch. (Not sure what that's about... *scratching head*...) Anyway, careful when you crack jokes about Santa like that. Some folks on here might take you seriously.
@Remember my main argument is the same as others: There is no evidence for God where there should be.
You don't have a main argument. How in the fuck would you know what "should be" without defining the god you are talking about. All your are doing is making inane bullshit assertions. Just like an idiot theist. YOU ARE THE KIND OF PERSON THAT GIVES ATHEISM A BAD NAME. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE DOING.
Trying to tell the anger from the satire here like
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
It is anger, the same I feel too.
Mikhael, you are accepting bullshit stories, then attempting to disprove them.
You have it backwards. A skeptical mind does not accept anything until the person making the claim provides proof.
You got that right David, but I'm actually doing loads better now, and am mostly invested in seeing this shit going down now xD
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